EU tariffs on US goods come into force

[innkeeper]

Whatever it takes to end unfair trade practices.  if at the end of the day it gets people to the table to correct things, then it is worth it. USA has a 566 billion dollar trade deficit. the us cant get goods and services sold in other countries due to tariffs and unfair practices in many instances.

The USA will come out on top of any trade war...
WHY?
The USA top exports currently are things they can use to then help produce items to sell back to the USA (and toher countries).
basic things like
food
fuel
raw materials
machinery for manufacturer.
items where they cant get the intellectual rights.

so yea.. go ahead put tariffs on those....it only serves the interests of the usa to get people to the negotiation table.

and while the USA is it, this whole stealing of intellectual property and then using it to produce and sell goods back tot he USA or any country should be fought much harder.

Sure the USA can fault past administrations for making trade deals to help out other countries, but, now the USA is in a long-term trade hole, its been leaking money now for many decades, and frankly, it by the USA's own doing.  and why would a country want to renegotiate those deals, is not in their best interest... The USA has to make it in their interest... the only way i know to do that is either a trade war or, the threat of one.

and anyone who thinks this will have a net LOSS in jobs in the usa, simply needs to look at the economic facts, if the USA is importing less, The USA needs to produce more inside the usa. that means more jobs inside the usa.

and that's simply if the USA just import and export less overall. if the USA gain more fair trade practices, the USA would gain even more jobs.  There's no downside here. will costs of goods go up in some cases in the USA, yes, but there artificially low in some cases due to the unfair business practices. that is what drove US buisnesses to close in the first place.

trade war?

you realize that if the USA stopped importing and exporting completely (obviously not a reality) the USA would be up 566 billion dollars in trade. Thats 566 billion dollars more staying inside the usa!

How can the usa leak 566 billion dollars a year in trade, and still stay afloat? The USA should be running and even trade deficit or even a trade surplus. its time that somone take the bull by the horns and turned this around.

Trade WAR?  Sure .. bring it on...it is long past due

[CopperCone]

how is europe going to make its own microwave amplifiers without IC's from places like AD? Communications are extremely strategicly imporant. Do you really wanna buy Chinese comm equipment? 

This is either a internal shakedown of adjacent internal high tech industry (i.e. government benefits from shit that's going to be produced no matter what) being piggybacked on a political agenda, hamfisted, or in coohoots with venture capitalists  that told politicians that they can produce those goods internally or establish favorable supply chains that don't exist currently and may outlast the war due to convenience but not be put in place without a war (damage control, harden the country (less demands on overseas stuff so you get harder to supply block and shit in a time of war, military likes this and can sleep easier),  in addition to being a reasonable measure of course.

If someone feels that the communications/MIC industry is basically forced for security reasons to buy American products for microwave (used heavily in aviation too), then the goverment is basically shaking them down, since their supply lines can't change and your just taxing a corporation. This may mean that the tax structure is not correctly weighed in the EU if these feelings exist and the situation is like this scenario envisions. They know that the European MIC won't downsize significantly because of Russia (look at Ukraine for the last 5 years)... all those countries are paranoid about Russia, so I strongly suspect this is just a random tax being thrown in there. It's well known that MIC basically sees the government as a cash cow, so this is how the government fights back. Lobbiests must not have penetrated to control the association that decides tarrifs. Payback for the insane government contract pricing.

It's also well known that in a real conflict (look at what happened in Georgia/Russia) Russia will rely very heavily on electronics warfare and command and control, so any competent military will want to have the best possible shit to fight in this area, which IMO will mean American stuff. A big reason why that was a landslide victory for Russia is because of how well they carried out EW during the early stages of the conflict.

German motors are of high quality so it does make sense to restrict import of shitty American ones into Europe.


85437008 Plasma cleaner machines that remove organic contaminants from electron microscopy specimens and specimen holders
85437009 Touch screens without display capabilities, for incorporation into apparatus having a display (excl. those for
electric control of subheading 85371095)

More difficult to make reliable semiconductor manufacturing with these two in place.

[Kleinstein]

The US economy is very much connected to other countries - so they need much of the imports and need to sell the products (especially things like software and films). Especially with these intellectual products it hurts if you can't export less.  Another important factor for the US are financial services - a decline of world economy this way also hurts the US.

I still don't understand much of the EU countermeasures. Some symbolic tariffs (e.g. whisky or peanuts)  might be a good idea, but the toll on US steel imports mainly hurts the US, Canada and maybe China and Mexico. Much of the EU steel (especially from Germany) is special quality, they have to buy anyway and the toll is paid by US companies to make there products more expensive. So it's more like an extra tax for the US industry.

President Bush tried this before and stopped it because it did hurt the US manufacturers more than it did help the steel producers. The slight positive effect for the steel producers was gone and turned the other way once the the tolls where stopped. The same would is expected this time.

[madires]

For the people who just look at the balance of imported and exported goods: there are also services and investments.

[Marco]

you realize that if the USA stopped importing and exporting completely (obviously not a reality) the USA would be up 566 billion dollars in trade. Thats 566 billion dollars more staying inside the usa!

Those goods are physical, dollars are just paper/bits. From one point of view the US get the better deal out of it. On the other hand, trade and current account imbalances are tools disingenuously used by some globalist to force a new world order.

How can the usa leak 566 billion dollars a year in trade, and still stay afloat?

Funny isn't it ... and most economists are fine with this, but at the same time aren't fine with unbounded debt/GDP ratios, useful idiots.

[Marco]

For the people who just look at the balance of imported and exported goods: there are also services and investments.

The US is also running a structural current account deficit, they are slowly selling their economy to foreigners (foreign to all nations).

[Rick Law]

The US economy is very much connected to other countries - so they need much of the imports and need to sell the products (especially things like software and films). Especially with these intellectual products it hurts if you can't export less.  Another important factor for the US are financial services - a decline of world economy this way also hurts the US.

I still don't understand much of the EU countermeasures. Some symbolic tariffs (e.g. whisky or peanuts)  might be a good idea, but the toll on US steel imports mainly hurts the US, Canada and maybe China and Mexico. Much of the EU steel (especially from Germany) is special quality, they have to buy anyway and the toll is paid by US companies to make there products more expensive. So it's more like an extra tax for the US industry.

President Bush tried this before and stopped it because it did hurt the US manufacturers more than it did help the steel producers. The slight positive effect for the steel producers was gone and turned the other way once the the tolls where stopped. The same would is expected this time.

Judging from what Trump said in his various speeches both before and after G7, aluminum and steel are security issues.

Trump appears to admire Andrew Jackson, the 7th President of the United States.  The article from Fortune _[1] "Trump Embraces Legacy of Andrew Jackson" merely talked about in terms of common man v rich and other factors, but it missed one of Andrew Jackson's famous view _[2] that America must be able to manufacture what it needs for its own defense.  When placed in that backdrop, even if it is a money loosing preposition for tariff on aluminum and steel, it is a necessary thing.

I must add, I am not in agreement with the some of points stated in the Fortune article.  But I do agree with many of the points in the article.  From wikipedia _[3]: "As president, Jackson sought to advance the rights of the "common man" against a "corrupt aristocracy" and to preserve the Union."  This is exactly Trump's point in most of his speeches even before he became President.  So, I am in general agreement that Trump probably may be styling himself after Andrew Jackson.  Thus, Andrew Jackson's action in tariff and national defense may be an inspiring factor.

I would therefore put steel, aluminum, and other defense related item in a different category than those merely for financial/job reasons.


[1] Fortune magazine's "Trump Embraces Legacy of Andrew Jackson"
^{http://fortune.com/2017/02/19/donald-trump-andrew-jackson/}

[2] encyclopedia.com: Jackson's view on tariff and national defense
"Jackson was a moderate on the tariff issue. He considered modest protection necessary to ensure the production of goods necessary for national defense and security, to establish a parity with European manufacturers, and to raise sufficient revenue to pay the national debt. He did not doubt the constitutionality of tariff protection."
^{https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/history/us-history-biographies/andrew-jackson}

[3] wikipedia page I referred to:
As president, Jackson sought to advance the rights of the "common man" against a "corrupt aristocracy" and to preserve the Union.
^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson}

[XynxNet]

And just sit and watch how we are loosing steel and aluminium market.

We already lost the run of the mill steel market to China and India.
Not so much the special steel market.
A few weeks back I vistited manufacturer for high precision high volume metal deep drawing products. They were a bit smirking about Trumps steel tarif with the US not beeing able to produce deep draw capable steel and having to import it.... so effectly taxing themself.

Communications are extremely strategicly imporant. Do you really wanna buy Chinese comm equipment?
[...]
If someone feels that the communications/MIC industry is basically forced for security reasons to buy American products [...]

Where is the difference from a non-US perspective? Either way you don't get reliable security.

[G7PSK]

If the EU was serious about tariffs that hurt the US they would all be on weapons and military gear and air planes.

[nfmax]

A tariff on imported goods is paid ultimately by the domestic customer. Trump has 'cut taxes' (supposedly a Good Thing) and will be able to replace some of the lost revenue by 'defending American Industry' (also a Good Thing). But the ordinary US citizen will be no better off

[nctnico]

how is europe going to make its own microwave amplifiers without IC's from places like AD?

More difficult to make reliable semiconductor manufacturing with these two in place.

AD (for example) has a factory in Ireland and they won't be the only ones. Testing is generally done in the Phillipines. Only the really high-end stuff is probably still made in the US but exported as a die to Asia for testing & packaging.

[innkeeper]

A tariff on imported goods is paid ultimately by the domestic customer. Trump has 'cut taxes' (supposedly a Good Thing) and will be able to replace some of the lost revenue by 'defending American Industry' (also a Good Thing). But the ordinary US citizen will be no better off

that is EXTREMELY short sighted.  Yes, there will be some short term impact that will be negative, but the long-term impact will be to raise everyone up. History does not bear out that the ordinary citizen will not benefit.

It is a heck of a lot more than defending American industry. and it darn well should be.
The USA been leaking money at the rate of 566+ billion dollars a year. This must be reversed or the USA will become a 3rd world country .. just how close are we to getting into the situation GREECE is in.... if this is not corrected the USA will continue to get deeper in debt.

I guess they can just keep passing the DEBT buck down the line to the next generation...

You simply can not raise the bar for everyone while your country is becoming poorer... you can only borrow so much... how much is too much... do we want to find out ... is the USA TO BIG TO FAIL???.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

In short, bussinesses and their respective countries and citizens are finally beginning to realize that offshoring in the long term was a footgun. Good.

[apis]

In this case, tariffs are bullshit and only hurt businesses and the consumer. I think the EU should have just ignored most of them and let the US suffer for its government's actions.

And just sit and watch how we are loosing steel and aluminium market.
FWIW US have done so much shit unpunished, act bold all the time without caring about other's interests, it's a miracle something like this did not happen earlier.

Yeah, you have to stand up to the bullies or you will just keep getting beaten over and over again.

Trump wanted a trade war and now he got one. And like all wars there aren't any winners. Some loose more than others though, and it will probably be trump and his supporters on the bottom since he just pissed of just about everyone else in the world.

Trump probably doesn't care though, he is just putting on a show for the home audience: his goal is to be re-elected. He has shown repeatedly he doesn't care about anything else but his ego.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

A message to the europeans and other non-US citizens in this thread: be respectful, remember that half (+1?) the US voted for Trump. In their defence, the alternative wasn't any better. It happens all the time, and not only in the US! The French once voted Mitterrand, the UK the one eyed fool and Blair, Spain Zapatero, etc, etc, etc.

[1audio]

Actually Trump won through an unfortunate anachronism.

Still there are no winners in a trade war or a real war, just losers of different magnatude.

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

[apis]

A message to the europeans and other non-US citizens in this thread: be respectful, remember that half (+1?) the US voted for Trump. In their defence, the alternative wasn't any better. It happens all the time, and not only in the US! The French once voted Mitterrand, the UK the one eyed fool and Blair, Spain Zapatero, etc, etc, etc.

He actually lost the popular vote:
Trump: 62,984,828
Hillary: 65,853,514

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

You made the rules!

Edit: They.

[innkeeper]

He actually lost the popular vote:
Trump: 62,984,828
Hillary: 65,853,514

Thankfully there is a system in the USA that prevents high turnouts from one state to override the will of those in the rest of the states or states with lower voter turnout ...  I for one am glad California and New York do not dictate who is elected.  but hey, who cares about the details right?

[CopperCone]

And just sit and watch how we are loosing steel and aluminium market.

We already lost the run of the mill steel market to China and India.
Not so much the special steel market.
A few weeks back I vistited manufacturer for high precision high volume metal deep drawing products. They were a bit smirking about Trumps steel tarif with the US not beeing able to produce deep draw capable steel and having to import it.... so effectly taxing themself.

Communications are extremely strategicly imporant. Do you really wanna buy Chinese comm equipment?
[...]
If someone feels that the communications/MIC industry is basically forced for security reasons to buy American products [...]

Where is the difference from a non-US perspective? Either way you don't get reliable security.

are you saying poor ass China has a easier time keeping information they steal from the Russians then America does? They need to steal it from America, china prob just sells whatever to Russia.

Also its unlikely the USA will benefit much from like knowing how European tactical plans, military deployments and strategies look like as Russia would, who is actively seeking to expand their political influence? The USA is interested in keeping Europe stable to contain Russia.

China benefits keeping secrets from the USA, Europe not so much. Leak about Europe to America = economic abuse, Leak from Europe to Russia = possible land invasion like Ukraine, to me its pretty obvious which is the lesser of two evils. I can't see it being politically kosher for the USA to do anything to Europe for at least 40 years.

[IanB]

The USA been leaking money at the rate of 566+ billion dollars a year. This must be reversed or the USA will become a 3rd world country .. just how close are we to getting into the situation GREECE is in.... if this is not corrected the USA will continue to get deeper in debt.

This is called offshoring. Corporations have been sending work overseas to lower costs and increase profits with the full support of government and Congress. A "leak" implies an unintended loss. This was not unintended, it was fully by design.

There will be no meaningful change to the prevailing policies in this area while either of the two main political parties are in office. The battle, if ever there was a battle, has long been lost. The public finances of the USA may be in deficit, but the major banks and corporations that control the economy and the government are continuing to make huge profits and are not suffering at all.

[nctnico]

He actually lost the popular vote:
Trump: 62,984,828
Hillary: 65,853,514

Thankfully there is a system in the USA that prevents high turnouts from one state to override the will of those in the rest of the states or states with lower voter turnout ...  I for one am glad California and New York do not dictate who is elected.  but hey, who cares about the details right?

Offtopic: IMHO this system isn't fair. In a true democracy every vote should have the same weight. But then again in a true democracy there isn't one person or one party having all the power. It is no surprise the USA kept the Brittish 'democratic' system because it very much helps the rich and powerful to stay that way while giving the sheeple the fuzzy feeling they have something to say. The USA seems to be moving from the left to the right instead of forward.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

I don't think a third (political) party would fix that either, unfortunately. In other countries there are more than two that rule, and it's the same thing.

[apis]

He actually lost the popular vote:
Trump: 62,984,828
Hillary: 65,853,514

Thankfully there is a system in the USA that prevents high turnouts from one state to override the will of those in the rest of the states or states with lower voter turnout ...  I for one am glad California and New York do not dictate who is elected.  but hey, who cares about the details right?

That's like saying "I like it because I benefit from it right now". Imho, the only correct way to do it is one man one vote.

[apis]

This is exactly why I stopped replying political threads ...
The human race hasn't found a good way to keep every free thought happy yet, and such a way will never be found.

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”