EU tariffs on US goods come into force

[T3sl4co1l]

Offtopic: IMHO this system isn't fair. In a true democracy every vote should have the same weight.

A true democracy is a terrible idea.

Have you talked with the average citizen?

Spending some time on a democratic platform like Reddit or Imgur may provide much needed perspective.

But then again in a true democracy there isn't one person or one party having all the power.

Parties arise naturally, because power naturally concentrates.  There's never been such a thing as "democratic anarchism" (give or take if that's a reasonable description of what you're getting at).  And there never can be.

It is no surprise the USA kept the Brittish 'democratic' system because it very much helps the rich and powerful to stay that way while giving the sheeple the fuzzy feeling they have something to say.

[US] Constitutional background may be a valuable study, even among those in parliamentary systems (which seem to do well enough, mind -- there's at least a few ways to construct a reasonably workable representative system, of which the USA and a parliament are two examples.)

The US Constitution is based on a Native American accord, one that arose naturally among their own power structures, and which led to great stability in what is now the midwest -- a huge area, especially for diverse cultures that didn't have pack animals or the wheel!  "The House" was originally a literal house, of "long house" style construction, where all chiefs from member tribes gathered to share their opinions.  The executive was originally one particularly powerful tribe, consequently given certain privilege over the others, but the others also had collective veto power over the executive.

The founders studied this system (among much other history), and thought well enough of it to give it a try.  As a system of government, you can reasonably call it a still-ongoing experiment.

Tim

[innkeeper]

Still there are no winners in a trade war or a real war, just losers of different magnatude.

Yes, there are certainly losers, and the USA has been loosing at trade for the past 43 years consecutively... yes 43 years of a negative trade balance!

in fact the slide began before that, and can be traced back to the post WWII era.
i would point you to this graph to depict us tariff rates and the slide of the trade imbalance.

now let us compare that post wwII debt  ... its an interesting comparison.. isn't it.

sorry these charts don't end at the same dates... just found something quick to illustrate the point

[innkeeper]

Offtopic: IMHO this system isn't fair. In a true democracy every vote should have the same weight. But then again in a true democracy there isn't one person or one party having all the power. It is no surprise the USA kept the Brittish 'democratic' system because it very much helps the rich and powerful to stay that way while giving the sheeple the fuzzy feeling they have something to say. The USA seems to be moving from the left to the right instead of forward.

that would work, if everyone voted.

[Nusa]

Judging from what Trump said in his various speeches both before and after G7, aluminum and steel are security issues.

That doesn't mean it actually is a security issue, no matter what Trump says it is. Trump pretty much HAS to claim national security to use the authority Congress gave the President over 50 years ago to invoke tariffs. The alternative would be to ask Congress to invoke a tariff, and you know how likely that is to happen.

Why did they do that? Because there was quite a history of Congress being incompetent to manage tariffs in concert with foreign policy, never mind in a timely fashion. However, Congress can also take that power back, in the event Congress can agree the current President is even more incompetent than they are in this case.

[donotdespisethesnake]

Trump probably doesn't care though, he is just putting on a show for the home audience: his goal is to be re-elected. He has shown repeatedly he doesn't care about anything else but his ego.

I think you are right, while everyone is focussing on the merits of tariffs and free trade, all of that is irrelevant to Trump. Trump is the Crisis President, everything he does contributes to the Donald Trump TV Reality Show. Trumps worlds is a fiction, a fantasy. Possibly he believes it himself, his supporters have followed him into his fantasy world. Want to keep out illegals? Build a wall!

His MO is the same as other populist leaders, who promised the people a fantasy world and the people willing followed. That ended badly.

Trump is best ignored, he thrives on attention. The real question is what happens after Trump, and whether US politics can be repaired or if it is divided forever. I would not be at all surprised if respective supporters start shooting at each other. Then the US is inches away from another civil war. There are many not happy with the result of the first, and would not mind a "do over".

However, Trump supporters are right about one thing. World domination will eventually cede to China, that seems inevitable.

[wilhelm]

Harley-Davidson is moving some production to EU.

[Rick Law]

Judging from what Trump said in his various speeches both before and after G7, aluminum and steel are security issues.

That doesn't mean it actually is a security issue, no matter what Trump says it is. Trump pretty much HAS to claim national security to use the authority Congress gave the President over 50 years ago to invoke tariffs. The alternative would be to ask Congress to invoke a tariff, and you know how likely that is to happen.

Why did they do that? Because there was quite a history of Congress being incompetent to manage tariffs in concert with foreign policy, never mind in a timely fashion. However, Congress can also take that power back, in the event Congress can agree the current President is even more incompetent than they are in this case.

Well, the election in 2016 empowered Trump to make that decision for the USA.  When he as the Commander In Chief made the decision that this is a national security issue, then it is.

Congress of course can disagree by passing a law and override the presumed veto by the President, then, the people would have effectively told him he is wrong.  If and when such a law is passed, he will then be compelled to modify his views on the matter and acts accordingly.  Until such time, individual citizens, congressman(s), and senator(s) can disagree with his decision but that would just be an opinion and not a national policy.

His statement that "we should be able to make all the things we need for national defense" could be a bridge too far.  (Quote is not verbatim but just what I can recall from his speeches on streamed news).  We are expecting our allies to buy the equipment we make - up to and including stuff like the billion dollar turkey (aka the F35).  It is a hard pill for our allies to swallow: that we say we must retain the ability to make everything ourselves.  I am glad this is not a conundrum for me to solve - I've hired a guy to solve that and that guy is the fellow we called Mr. President.

[Zero999]

In this case, tariffs are bullshit and only hurt businesses and the consumer. I think the EU should have just ignored most of them and let the US suffer for its government's actions.

And just sit and watch how we are loosing steel and aluminium market.
FWIW US have done so much shit unpunished, act bold all the time without caring about other's interests, it's a miracle something like this did not happen earlier.

Yeah, you have to stand up to the bullies or you will just keep getting beaten over and over again.

Not in this case, because even if the EU doesn't retaliate, the US still loses.

[wraper]

Not in this case, because even if the EU doesn't retaliate, the US still loses.

Loses or not, EU will loose it's face if won't take retaliatory measures. If everyone knows, that you don't f...ck with us, likely they won't even try. If they see that such crap will pass, further attempts to come.

[CatalinaWOW]

Not in this case, because even if the EU doesn't retaliate, the US still loses.

Loses or not, EU will loose it's face if won't take retaliatory measures. If everyone knows, that you don't f...ck with us, likely they won't even try. If they see that such crap will pass, further attempts to come.

You are presuming a thoughtful, rational approach to trade policy.  What leads you to expect that? 

[madires]

What bothers me isn't just this silly trade war, it's also the current situation of politics (right-wing, nationalist, populist). This resembles a period we had about 100 years ago. Hopefully we don't make the same mistakes again and repeat history.

[ebastler]

Harley-Davidson is moving some production to EU.

Not quite; but they are moving it outside of the US, so the products won't incur tariffs when imported into Europe. And, believe it or not, that does annoy Trump enough to send out several angry tweets about Harley Davidson.

The new European tariffs are obviously symbolic in nature -- aimed specifically at goods which are "as American as apple pie", and at goods which are produced in the districts of Trump supporters. If I recall correctly, the EU politicians even stated that, when they first started dicussing retaliation tariffs a couple of months ago.

Very limited effect on European consumers and industry; but it seems to send the right message to Trump. Works for me.

[CJay]

What bothers me isn't just this silly trade war, it's also the current situation of politics (right-wing, nationalist, populist). This resembles a period we had about 100 years ago. Hopefully we don't make the same mistakes again and repeat history.

Me too, there are some glaring parallels.

[innkeeper]

What bothers me isn't just this silly trade war, it's also the current situation of politics (right-wing, nationalist, populist). This resembles a period we had about 100 years ago. Hopefully we don't make the same mistakes again and repeat history.

oh, the 1920's you mean back when the USA had very little national debt, and when the was very profitable and people themselves were doing well in the USA...think they called those times the roaring twenties. That would be such a mistake  why would we cant prosperity!

AHHHH... i know ... it doesn't fit the left wing agenda.  In order for the left wing to advance their agenda, they need to make the populace dependent on the government.  people, not dependent on the government typically rejects left-wing ideologies.

on Tariffs in general, they serve a positive purpose.
Tarrifs help your country keeps its individual economy going, and seeks imports for items that are not practically produced inside their own borders, and exports those items that are impractical to produce in the countries they export to. in the case of the usa, post-WWII there was a need for the USA help prop up and rebuild the economies around the world, tariffs got in the way of that, but, now, those days are long gone. time for the USA to rebuild itself!

Another outcome of the lack of tariffs is it opens countries up to devastating their businesses where products and services can be produced in the country and then puts them at a national security risk in not being able to produce those products and services in a national crisis when trade abruptly breaks down between two countries. 

I believe its a misconception that some people think any business needs to compete on the global market, well, no truly it does not. It is good if they can, and especially if it's not at the cost of devastating the industries globally. 

It doesn't serve the interests of the business or country if the goods or services cannot be produced in the country, it does serve the ideology of a one world government structure by forcing a global economy and therefore making countries totally reliant on each other, and needing to bend to the will of global control or centralized control of that trade. we can see some of this with the WTO for example.

Some people call tariffs protectionism as if that's a bad thing.... its not a bad thing, its a damn good thing for all economies.  by not having tariffs there is pressure to continually depress the value of peoples work, and the value of goods and services, and we are all being dragged down ... whats the point in that. oh I know, we're back to the left wing agenda again where a people dependent on government are open to left-wing ideologies....

Don't be manipulated...look at whats going on....

[CJay]

Don't be manipulated...look at whats going on....

Bwahahaha yeah, of course.

And the earth is flat too?

Made in only six days by a sky fairy some six thousand years ago and dinosaurs walked the earth alongside man, in fact the Flintstones was a documentary series and not an entertainment cartoon?

Seriously, if you use the phrase 'keft wing agenda' you mark yourself out as a conspiracy theorist with woefully poor grasp on reality, your wonderful electoral system threw into power a man who had a lower total share of the vote, who has seriously dubious links to Russia, seems only to be interested in grandstanding and enriching himself and his cronies and is so childishly petty he's demeaned the office you're all supposed to respect to the point of ridicule by attacking, illegally, a tiny restaurant that chose not to serve a member of his staff.

MAGA eh...

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

You say that as if the EU wasn't a nest of communist^W leftist snakes... the reborn of the politbureau.

[apis]

What bothers me isn't just this silly trade war, it's also the current situation of politics (right-wing, nationalist, populist). This resembles a period we had about 100 years ago. Hopefully we don't make the same mistakes again and repeat history.

Especially since they appear to have Putin backing them up. It's not just Trump, Russian government banks are sponsoring Le Pen in France for example, and probably all those other populist parties that are popping up like mushrooms around Europe at the moment. If your goal is to divide and conquer, then sponsoring nationalist populist idiots among your targets seems like a clever strategy. Seems pretty successful too, just look at Brexit. Putin might not have to worry about competition from EU (or USA, lol) a decade from now if things continue like this. Once EU is gone, manipulating a bunch of small countries bickering among themselves will be piece of cake for a spy master like Putin.

[CJay]

I wish we could stop looking at Brexit, in all honesty I would have got behind leaving if there were proveable benefits but there just aren't, we're two years down the line and every promise made by the leave bunch have been proven to be promises of unicorns and fairies but not the unicorns we promised you last week...

Nothing I have seen has done anything other than made me a more fervent advocate for remain.

[Nusa]

Note that political catchphrases and slang terms usually don't translate well internationally, in either direction. Even in cases where the words are familiar to both countries, they often refer to entirely different groups of people based the persons point of reference.

This isn't really the best forum for political opinions in any case.

[Marco]

Especially since they appear to have Putin backing them up.

Everything is converging. Effects from Russification coming back to haunt Europe. Effects of guest labourers and ex-colonials combined with low native birthrates in north-western Europe, with Erdogan preaching for the largest group among them to be a third column. Effects of abruptly ending of colonialism and the human rights frenzy post WW2.

Putin has a lot to work with, the "spymaster" isn't exactly subtle, their level of sophistication and influence compared to the US is pathetic.

[innkeeper]

Seriously, if you use the phrase 'keft wing agenda' you mark yourself out as a conspiracy theorist with the woefully poor grasp on reality

 

so now were to just pretend there are no political parties, and that those parties are not advancing their political views. ... and you say I have  a poor grasp on reality 

your wonderful electoral system threw into power a man who had a lower total share of the vote

You would be embarrassed at that statement if you understood the voting system in the USA.

, who has seriously dubious links to Russia, seems only to be interested in grandstanding and enriching himself and his cronies:

now, who is talking conspiracy theories 
 

and is so childishly petty he's demeaned the office you're all supposed to respect to the point of ridicule by attacking, illegally, a tiny restaurant that chose not to serve a member of his staff.

Well, perhaps where you are from, you are used to the media manufacturing issues/news when the issues have existed through many administrations, just to turn underinformed people against people in the current administration, or, give those with anti-administration sentiments fuel to enrage them.  many do see through all this though and see it for what it is.  and I am glad that there not just laying down and taking it.  it sounds like you would prefer that.  This is less of a problem in most of the eu as there are fake news laws

[CJay]

Seriously, if you use the phrase 'keft wing agenda' you mark yourself out as a conspiracy theorist with the woefully poor grasp on reality

 

so now were to just pretend there are no political parties, and that those parties are not advancing their political views. ... and you say I have  a poor grasp on reality 

Nope, I have a fine grasp on reality, anyone using 'left wing agenda' or 'right wing agenda' as an arguing point is usually a swivel eyed loon.

your wonderful electoral system threw into power a man who had a lower total share of the vote

You would be embarrassed at that statement if you understood the voting system in the USA.

I understand the electoral college system just fine, he still got fewer total votes than Clinton in the popular vote but your system is a relic of a bygone time and is skewed in a way that makes it possible to gain more of the overall vote but still lose, essentially your vote may not be worth as much as one from a different area.

, who has seriously dubious links to Russia, seems only to be interested in grandstanding and enriching himself and his cronies:

now, who is talking conspiracy theories 
 

and is so childishly petty he's demeaned the office you're all supposed to respect to the point of ridicule by attacking, illegally, a tiny restaurant that chose not to serve a member of his staff.

Well, perhaps where you are from, you are used to the media manufacturing issues/news when the issues have existed through many administrations, just to turn underinformed people against people in the current administration, or, give those with anti-administration sentiments fuel to enrage them.  many do see through all this though and see it for what it is.  and I am glad that there not just laying down and taking it.  it sounds like you would prefer that.  This is less of a problem in most of the eu as there are fake news laws

Oh, those very public comments that he made on social media about a small restaurant weren't made by him then? The comments that are, by your own laws, a serious breach of ethics and illegal?

It was all fake news, I understand totally, it's me that's deluded.

I notice you didn't deny the Russia links...

Next you'll be telling me Tommy Robinson should be free?

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Tommy Robinson should be free.

[CJay]

Tommy Robinson should be free.

And all the Nazis who marched to support him agree with you that the serial criminal Stephen Yaxley Lennon should be free to assault another police officer, to commit fraud and breach the terms of his suspended sentence by committing exactly the same offence again.

Fin, I've had enough of this now, we're descending into far right bullshit and it's not worth arguing with trolls.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Did he attack anybody? Wasn't he merely reporting just like the BBC and others?