Author Topic: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones  (Read 7185 times)

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Offline David Hess

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2023, 05:25:44 pm »
I wonder what the tradeoff will be? Smaller capacity batteries? Lower quality so the manufacturer can sell more replacements?

If you listen to the manufacturers, the result will be dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!

Except that the replacement batteries are shit and the brand batteries are just expensive re-branded shit.

That is my experience.  I have three phones with removable batteries, a Samsung from 2020 and two Alcatels which are newer, and in no case does the manufacturer sell batteries so I have to rely on questionable third parties.

Of course manufacturers use the excuse that people will buy questionable third-party batteries causing fires and whatnot, while not supplying the correct batteries themselves.

I replaced the batteries in old iPhones with $20 kits that included both the battery and the tool. It takes me an hour. They last just fine.

My batteries can be replaced by using a fingernail inserted into the notch in the rear cover to remove it.

I don't understand.  Why *wouldn't* you want a battery operated tool, all else being equal?  My drill, impact driver and jigsaw are all battery powered.  I'm usually just doing short jobs, so it's enough to keep the second battery on the charger if I expect the first to run out.  And the impact driver has more than enough torque. That way I don't need to worry about where I'm plugging it in, tripping over the cord, or keeping the cord out of the way of anything.

My corded power tools are more powerful, run continuously, and do not require a costly battery and charger.  I have many cordless power tools, but I only rely on them for light duty tasks.

Honestly, I don't know what the issue is anyway. I typically keep a phone for two or three years [...]

That's the issue right there. ;)

Discarding a phone after only two or three years is wasteful. Why do you replace it after such a short time? I have not observed rapid technical progress over the past decade which would justify that. Weakening battery performance or lack of software upgrades seem the likely candidates -- and both are entirely due to the manufacturers' unwillingness to support their products through a decent lifecycle.

Unfortunately even if the battery is replaceable, there may be good reason to discard the phone.

I have changed the battery in my *unlocked* Samsung Galaxy XCover Pro, however fucking AT&T blocks firmware updates to their unlocked phones.  By law they must unlock their phones so that they may be used with other carriers, but nothing requires that they do not cripple them.

So great, phones will be required to have user replaceable batteries, and the manufacturers and carriers will find some alternative way to enforce planned obsolescence.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2023, 05:27:25 pm by David Hess »
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2023, 05:40:29 pm »
Much like with the Amazon situation, I have to wonder if trying to steer the major companies using legal means is really the way to go since they have made it 100% clear the direction they want their products to go in in terms of repairability, security and the concept that their customers actually own their products.

However I don't know much in the way of alternatives. About the best I'm planning to upgrade to is a Google Pixel loaded with GrapheneOS, or something lower end with LineageOS.
Yes, it absolutely is. The consumers have absolutely no way of swaying large corporations in matters like this. Think of the USBC mandate solving all kinds of issues with chargers. I still have these multi-adapter cables with 11 different eds for Alcatel, Nokia Sony, micro, mini Iphone and other connectors. It was an absolute mess. I have a phone, it's like 3-4 years old and the only reason to replace it is the battery. Disassembly is super inconvenient with a heat gun, removing glue and so on. As near as 8 years ago we were still making phones that had replaceable battery.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2023, 05:44:59 pm »
Why would you want battery operated tools anyway? For construction workers that have no outlet available it may make sense but for around the house a corded tool is easier. A couple of years ago I bought a Makita electric screw driver with a cord. I find that way more convenient than dealing with batteries all the time. And it has more torque while being lighter to handle.

I don't understand.  Why *wouldn't* you want a battery operated tool, all else being equal?  My drill, impact driver and jigsaw are all battery powered.  I'm usually just doing short jobs, so it's enough to keep the second battery on the charger if I expect the first to run out.
That is the problem right there: you use these machines too little to always have a full battery when you start the work. So you'd have to prepare the night before by putting the batteries on the chargers and hope the chargers can keep up with your job. Especially when batteries start to wear out (after 5 years or so due to under-use) you'll see that needing batteries is becoming a nuisance. Been there, done that. No more battery powered tools for me! A tool with a cord just works immediately when you need it.
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Offline tom66

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2023, 06:32:43 pm »
That is the problem right there: you use these machines too little to always have a full battery when you start the work. So you'd have to prepare the night before by putting the batteries on the chargers and hope the chargers can keep up with your job. Especially when batteries start to wear out (after 5 years or so due to under-use) you'll see that needing batteries is becoming a nuisance. Been there, done that. No more battery powered tools for me! A tool with a cord just works immediately when you need it.

Not really. I use the tools probably once every few weeks, and the batteries keep plenty of charge.  Maybe your experience with older Li-Ion batteries or NiCads has skewed your opinion, but a good modern Li-Ion stored at 80% charge should still have 20% charge left after about a year, when stored at room temperature.

As for a replacement, well, that's just a fact of life with batteries, but I can get a genuine replacement for £30 - hardly the end of the world given the batteries power multiple tools. For what it's worth, the drill batteries are going on for five years old now, and I have no complaints with their longevity yet.  I'd love a more universal system but for now they're fine.
 

Offline asmi

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2023, 06:36:07 pm »
That is the problem right there: you use these machines too little to always have a full battery when you start the work. So you'd have to prepare the night before by putting the batteries on the chargers and hope the chargers can keep up with your job. Especially when batteries start to wear out (after 5 years or so due to under-use) you'll see that needing batteries is becoming a nuisance. Been there, done that.
If you don't use them professionally (as I suspect is the case for most people here), that is unlikely to ever happen.
No more battery powered tools for me! A tool with a cord just works immediately when you need it.
As long as you don't accidentally cut the cord with that tool. Or stumble over that cord and cut something <important> from yourself or others. Or somebody else stumbles over it in the exactly wrong moment of time.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2023, 06:44:14 pm »
No fan of governments/ groups of governments mandating anything, but forcing phones to have replacabale batteries is very sensible indeed, it should not have taken them so long to start insisting on it. However they probably should go further to, force phone manufacturers to have a fully standardised form factor for pouch cells, the way AA is a standard for alkaline and NiMH cells, and 18650 is a standard for hard cased lithium cylinder cells... Its actually very hard to find two pouch cells from different manufacturers with the same dimensions and capacity, makes it tricky to mechanically design things when you can't be sure you'll always have the same cell type available, let alone with the complexities phone manufacturers add by having different connector pinouts and contact shapes even on the same sized cell. A proper standardisation would be very welcome, and that way you'd be able to find decent quality replacement batteries made to that standard form factor from many decent generic manufacturers and the same sort from the official manufacturer, rather than the curent situation where there might be just one sketchy sounding manufacturer making copies (or sketchy manufactuers making doubly poor quaity copies then fake-marking them as official brand) of that weird shaped cell which the official manufacturer hasn't made for years. Would be helpful beyond hpoens too, if puch cells staretd to have proper standard designs it would make it much easier for designing things like small RC cars much easier(obviously high powered packs for higher performance RC are far bigger than phone related standard would help standardise).

Replaceable or removable? I would like phone batteries to be replaceable, as in the phone is held together by screws and the battery is not glued in place and can be replaced without great difficulty or significant risk of destruction of the phone. I don't want to go back to the old clunky snap user removable battery packs though, that results in a phone that is more bulky than necessary and less water resistant. In general I don't think politicians should be legislating stuff like this though because most politicians are technologically inept and have no clue about engineering.

I've replaced batteries in older iPhones a number of times and found that to be acceptably easy, I think the latest was an iPhone 4 though so I don't know what modern ones are like.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2023, 06:54:42 pm »
That is the problem right there: you use these machines too little to always have a full battery when you start the work. So you'd have to prepare the night before by putting the batteries on the chargers and hope the chargers can keep up with your job. Especially when batteries start to wear out (after 5 years or so due to under-use) you'll see that needing batteries is becoming a nuisance. Been there, done that. No more battery powered tools for me! A tool with a cord just works immediately when you need it.

I haven't found this to be an issue. Even my old Bosch NiMH powered drill batteries will hold a reasonable charge for several months, I've had them rebuilt once so far because I like the drill so much. My reciprocating saw, string trimmer and leaf blower all use Li-ion packs and those hold a charge indefinitely. Yes batteries can be a nuisance, but cords are FAR more of a nuisance. It was a happy day when I got my cordless blower and didn't have to drag an extension cord around on the roof, being sure not to trip over it, having it snag on the corner of shingles and roof vents, or worse, something on the ground forcing me to climb down off the roof to untangle it then go back up and finish cleaning out the gutters and blowing leaves off the roof. Same with my drill and saw, what a nuisance to drag a cord around in an attic or crawlspace, it tangles, it snares on things, or it's not quite long enough. A cord on a string trimmer is a pain, sometimes it's not long enough and when it is you still have to  constantly be careful not to drag it over fragile plants and go un-snag it from shrubs and landscaping. Corded electric lawnmowers are even more hassle because you have to be careful not to mow the cord. I gave away all of my corded tools years ago except for my big circular saw, power miter saw, rotary tool and router. I hate cords, they're a hassle every single time I use the tool, batteries are only a hassle on occasion. Cordless has been a vastly superior experience for me, I can't imagine ever going back.
 

Offline woody

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2023, 06:55:16 pm »
Why would you want battery operated tools anyway?
Because I want to be able to use my drill/screw driver/jigsaw in the garden, in the attic, on the roof or in my boat without having to find an extension cord and a working outlet. Because I hate standing on a ladder mounting plasterboard to a ceiling and having to make sure all the while I do not trip over the bloody cord every time I move.

I find the expression 'best invention since sliced bread' very much applicable to cordless electric tools. And since the NiCad/NiMH batteries made way for LiIon I find that I am able to use these cordless tools forever. They just keep going between charges, do not lose their charge while sitting on a shelf for months and they do not seem to wear out at all.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2023, 06:58:31 pm »
Yes, it absolutely is. The consumers have absolutely no way of swaying large corporations in matters like this. Think of the USBC mandate solving all kinds of issues with chargers. I still have these multi-adapter cables with 11 different eds for Alcatel, Nokia Sony, micro, mini Iphone and other connectors. It was an absolute mess. I have a phone, it's like 3-4 years old and the only reason to replace it is the battery. Disassembly is super inconvenient with a heat gun, removing glue and so on. As near as 8 years ago we were still making phones that had replaceable battery.

There are only a couple of different connectors on phones now for around a decade, Apple has their lightning connector and everything else is micro USB or more recently USB-C, and all of these cords terminate on the other end with USB A or C. The government didn't need to mandate anything here, the market already settled on something and as usual the government is a decade behind. At some point in the future when USB-C is long obsolete it will still be mandated by these laws which will still be at least a decade behind.
 

Offline eugene

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2023, 07:39:19 pm »
Yes, it absolutely is. The consumers have absolutely no way of swaying large corporations in matters like this. Think of the USBC mandate solving all kinds of issues with chargers. I still have these multi-adapter cables with 11 different eds for Alcatel, Nokia Sony, micro, mini Iphone and other connectors. It was an absolute mess. I have a phone, it's like 3-4 years old and the only reason to replace it is the battery. Disassembly is super inconvenient with a heat gun, removing glue and so on. As near as 8 years ago we were still making phones that had replaceable battery.

There are only a couple of different connectors on phones now for around a decade, Apple has their lightning connector and everything else is micro USB or more recently USB-C, and all of these cords terminate on the other end with USB A or C. The government didn't need to mandate anything here, the market already settled on something and as usual the government is a decade behind. At some point in the future when USB-C is long obsolete it will still be mandated by these laws which will still be at least a decade behind.

I'm not familiar with all of the devices that tszaboo mentions with odd connectors for charging. Everything handheld that I've purchased in the past decade or so has had micro-B, and then increasingly C type USB connectors for charging. It took me a long time to realize that the EU mandating USB C was in reality all about forcing Apple to toe the line. Is there a similarly unspoken motivation behind the replaceable battery mandate?
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Online Monkeh

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2023, 07:39:58 pm »
Sure, I wouldn't want a battery powered SDS hammer-drill for going through brick or the like*, that kind of has to be mains powered for endurance, but a lot of power tools work fine on batteries for 'home DIY' levels of usage and given their proliferation in the professional market it seems like tradespeople agree too.

*That said I know an electrician who has one because he's not sure if the job-site will have power available when he needs to drill.    But I can imagine their endurance is not great given my one pulls 1200W at full speed.  I guess buy a few spare batteries if you expect to need that.

Actually, I have a battery SDS specifically for drilling brick - it's a lot more capable than a combi, no more duplication of bits, and I don't have to drag a giant case and 25m extension any time I want to drill a hole. I wouldn't go running a 40mm TCT core with it, of course, but I wouldn't go drilling a 250mm diamond core with my corded SDS, either.

The only people who find corded tools more convenient for light duty are the ones who leave them in a drawer 360 days of the year - which is where my corded SDS lives. And my corded combi. And my corded circular saw. And the corded angle grinder. All of these I have cordless alternatives for, all of which have been out and about several times this month just for odd jobs at home.
 
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Offline eugene

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2023, 07:44:42 pm »
Not sure how (why) the discussion drifted to the relative merits of corded vs cordless hand tools, but the only important point I see is that the choice is entirely mine. No overfed lawmakers are mandating how the manufacturers builds their line of tools. Maybe it's a US vs EU thing, but I find it baffling.
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Offline switchabl

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2023, 07:55:02 pm »
There are only a couple of different connectors on phones now for around a decade, Apple has their lightning connector and everything else is micro USB or more recently USB-C, and all of these cords terminate on the other end with USB A or C. The government didn't need to mandate anything here, the market already settled on something and as usual the government is a decade behind. At some point in the future when USB-C is long obsolete it will still be mandated by these laws which will still be at least a decade behind.

The EC has been pushing for a common charging standard for a long, long time now: https://www.engadget.com/2009-06-29-nokia-apple-rim-and-others-agree-on-micro-usb-phone-charger-st.html

It is certainly possible that the market would have converged on USB without political pressure and the threat of legislative action (I have doubts). You can also argue that they have mostly succeeded already and the mandate is not necessary. EC probably would have preferred that but the "soft" approach will eventually lose its power if you let a big player (Apple) get away with doing their own thing and never follow through on your threats.

In any case, the narrative that they are somehow "a decade behind" and just jumping in on this is frankly preposterous.
 
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Offline David Hess

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2023, 08:43:47 pm »
Even with micro USB or USB-C, there are multiple charging standards.  Some of my devices are just dumb and try to draw 2 amps from either connector, while my phone and 18650 charger look for the QC standard, and my laptop only works with the PD standard.  So now we have fewer physical connectors, and multiple incompatible charging standards.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2023, 08:54:24 pm »
Not sure how (why) the discussion drifted to the relative merits of corded vs cordless hand tools, but the only important point I see is that the choice is entirely mine. No overfed lawmakers are mandating how the manufacturers builds their line of tools. Maybe it's a US vs EU thing, but I find it baffling.

I agree with this for the most part, but don't think the US will be immune to that. It's coming to the US too. The days of historical american freedom are IMO counted. But that's another story.

Regarding the discussion, I don't think this is a drift. Actually one of the main current issues with rechargeable batteries is that we just put them everywhere just because it's trendy and looks cool, even in gear than doesn't even require to be cordless to begin with. This has a gigantic environmental and financial cost.

Then the point becomes, if we are not able to act responsibly but just consume stuff as if we were kids, then we end up getting what kids get when they misbehave, orders and punishment.
You can't act a a kid and expect to be treated as an adult.

That aside, obviously some devices do require rechargeable batteries, like smartphones. The (relatively) short lifetime of current Li-ion batteries is a concern, although one could argue that by the time the battery of a typical smartphone needs replacement, usually said smartphone has itself become "obsolete" by the software ecosystem. So the underlying problem is much wider than just batteries.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2023, 08:56:07 pm by SiliconWizard »
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2023, 09:36:55 pm »
Yes, it absolutely is. The consumers have absolutely no way of swaying large corporations in matters like this. Think of the USBC mandate solving all kinds of issues with chargers. I still have these multi-adapter cables with 11 different eds for Alcatel, Nokia Sony, micro, mini Iphone and other connectors. It was an absolute mess. I have a phone, it's like 3-4 years old and the only reason to replace it is the battery. Disassembly is super inconvenient with a heat gun, removing glue and so on. As near as 8 years ago we were still making phones that had replaceable battery.

There are only a couple of different connectors on phones now for around a decade, Apple has their lightning connector and everything else is micro USB or more recently USB-C, and all of these cords terminate on the other end with USB A or C. The government didn't need to mandate anything here, the market already settled on something and as usual the government is a decade behind. At some point in the future when USB-C is long obsolete it will still be mandated by these laws which will still be at least a decade behind.
You might be mistaking the cause and effect. They have been talking about this for more than a decade, originally it was microUSB they were targeting:
https://www.engadget.com/2010-12-29-european-standardization-bodies-formalize-micro-usb-cellphone-ch.html
They standardized because the initiation of the EU Commission, not by themselves.

Long time ago, you could find Nokia BL-5C batteries in more than 50 different phones. Nowadays they seem to fart out 12 different phones every season with a slight difference in screen size (only 6 inch and up of course), with slight variation in the chipset and camera. Man camera bumps are so ugly nowadays, and it's only getting worse.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2023, 09:42:12 pm »
Why would you want battery operated tools anyway?
Because I want to be able to use my drill/screw driver/jigsaw in the garden, in the attic, on the roof or in my boat without having to find an extension cord and a working outlet. Because I hate standing on a ladder mounting plasterboard to a ceiling and having to make sure all the while I do not trip over the bloody cord every time I move.

I find the expression 'best invention since sliced bread' very much applicable to cordless electric tools. And since the NiCad/NiMH batteries made way for LiIon I find that I am able to use these cordless tools forever. They just keep going between charges, do not lose their charge while sitting on a shelf for months and they do not seem to wear out at all.
Yeah, batteries make sense for power tools. I usually draw the line wheter or not I buy something with a battery (Bosch, so it's compatible with the rest) if I use it less than 1x a year or it's a power hungry tool like an angle grinder or a hammer drill. They exist with a battery pack, but I would rather have a 1000 W power drill than something  underpowered. Those 18650s top out at about 80W each, and that's at 10C rate.
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2023, 10:13:37 pm »
I replaced the batteries in old iPhones with $20 kits that included both the battery and the tool. It takes me an hour. They last just fine.
Regarding replaceability, for the iPhone anyway it's a few screws, the tape that is removed using by pulling on the special tab, and then it comes out. It actually isn't that hard do to.
this was true for older phones (and iphones) it's not true anymore for actual iphones.
the battery becomes a nightmare to replace, even for people that have the skill AND the tools to do it
you need special tools to heat the device and actually be able to unglue it.
and you must glue the device back once you changed the battery.
I’ve swapped batteries in a half-dozen modern iPhones (X through 12) for family members, buttons in my XSMax, and a few screens (X through 13).

The heat source I used was an entirely ordinary hair dryer. The replacement glue/gaskets usually center with the part or are about $0.80 from China. I order a stack of them to cover every phone my family uses.

IMO, it’s not even difficult, let alone “nightmare”. At worst, it’s slightly time-consuming (a battery might take me 30 minutes start-to-finish).
 

Offline tom66

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2023, 10:37:28 pm »
Actually, I have a battery SDS specifically for drilling brick - it's a lot more capable than a combi, no more duplication of bits, and I don't have to drag a giant case and 25m extension any time I want to drill a hole. I wouldn't go running a 40mm TCT core with it, of course, but I wouldn't go drilling a 250mm diamond core with my corded SDS, either.

The only people who find corded tools more convenient for light duty are the ones who leave them in a drawer 360 days of the year - which is where my corded SDS lives. And my corded combi. And my corded circular saw. And the corded angle grinder. All of these I have cordless alternatives for, all of which have been out and about several times this month just for odd jobs at home.

My house is made of bricks that are approximately as tough as hardened diamond.  I have spent a good 15 minutes drilling one 15mm hole with the 1200W SDS.  When my electrician friend came over, he offered to use his DeWalt SDS with a 4.0Ah battery to get the 6mm^2 SWA through for the EV charger.  After the first battery was exhausted I just suggested we get the circuit in the garage up and running and drill carefully with the corded SDS. That still took a while, but no battery to run out. 

If you live in a house made mostly of engineering brick, rather than a 1930s build, you may have better experiences, but for me, a corded SDS is about the only corded power tool I'll have.

This probably should be the last diversion about power tools, we are way off topic ;).
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2023, 05:24:36 am »
I wonder what the tradeoff will be? Smaller capacity batteries? Lower quality so the manufacturer can sell more replacements?

If you listen to the manufacturers, the result will be dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!

Who you gonna call? !!  :-DD
 

Offline rteodor

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2023, 06:37:49 am »
IMO, it’s not even difficult, let alone “nightmare”. At worst, it’s slightly time-consuming (a battery might take me 30 minutes start-to-finish).

I'd rather not carry my lab with me in outdoor trips when I have 2 additional batteries with me.
For some reasons I prefer them over a 0.5 Kg power bank.
 

Offline rteodor

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2023, 06:47:31 am »
Any way you look at it this law is a clash between EU Stalinists and US Trotskists.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2023, 06:52:50 am »
Any way you look at it this law is a clash between EU Stalinists and US Trotskists.

 ;D
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2023, 11:41:07 am »
Not sure how (why) the discussion drifted to the relative merits of corded vs cordless hand tools, but the only important point I see is that the choice is entirely mine. No overfed lawmakers are mandating how the manufacturers builds their line of tools. Maybe it's a US vs EU thing, but I find it baffling.

I agree with this for the most part, but don't think the US will be immune to that. It's coming to the US too. The days of historical american freedom are IMO counted. But that's another story.
Having visited the US for the first time recently, I get the feeling that the US focusses on different areas but has just as many rules that could be perceived as overzealous. Like California where the restaurant menus need to show the calories of every portion. Or intersections with stop signs.
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Online Monkeh

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2023, 12:45:37 pm »
intersections with stop signs.

STOP! Accelerate violently for 400 feet STOP! Accelerate violently for 400 feet STOP! Accelerate violently for 400 feet STOP!
 


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