Author Topic: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones  (Read 7179 times)

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Online NiHaoMike

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2023, 01:09:30 pm »
Like California where the restaurant menus need to show the calories of every portion.
That's a good thing, it gives an incentive to not go overboard with added sugars and fats as is infamous for pretty much all of the US.
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Offline eugene

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2023, 02:20:48 pm »
Well, if this conversation is about cordless tools, ten I want to say that I love my electric lawn mower. It seems to be as powerful as the Honda gas mower it replaced, but is quieter, light in weight, and obviously requires much less maintenance. If this isn't the future, then I'm not sure I want to go there.

As for mandating replaceable batteries in phones and similar, I recognize that moving forward lithium ion batteries will be a big problem that needs to be dealt with, both in terms of manufacturing and recycling. If the mandate is intended to help handle and recycle used batteries, then I am all for it, at least in concept. On the other hand, if the mandate is about adding a convenience feature then I am less enthusiastic.
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Offline David Hess

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2023, 02:34:41 pm »
Having visited the US for the first time recently, I get the feeling that the US focusses on different areas but has just as many rules that could be perceived as overzealous. Like California where the restaurant menus need to show the calories of every portion. Or intersections with stop signs.

There is considerable variation between and within the individual states of the United States.  For instance some areas are aggressively replacing intersections that have stop signs and traffic lights with roundabouts.

On the other hand, we have the most lawyers per area and the most lawyers per capita.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2023, 02:55:34 pm »
On the other hand, we have the most lawyers per area and the most lawyers per capita.

Yes, that seems like the fundamental difference in compliance philosophy: In Europe, and especially in Germany, it is "Regulate every single step a company may take." While in the US it is "Let them do as they please, and sue the hell out of them if they get it wrong."  ::)
 
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Online Monkeh

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2023, 03:09:33 pm »
sue the hell out of them if when they intentionally get it wrong

Fixed that for you.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2023, 03:29:35 pm »
sue the hell out of them if when they intentionally get it wrong

Fixed that for you.

That's not correct to my knowledge. Negligence will be quite enough to get you into hot water.
 

Offline MarkS

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2023, 04:27:02 pm »
Anyone else remember all of the fake cellphone batteries that littered the market when batteries were replaceable? No? just me?
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2023, 04:31:35 pm »
Anyone else remember all of the fake cellphone batteries that littered the market when batteries were replaceable? No? just me?

Maybe that was a regional thing? Batteries for Nokia, Siemens, Sony Ericsson, ... phones were stocked by all the major electronics chains here, both from the original brands and from well-established independent accessory manufacturers. I don't recall "fake" batteries being an issue here.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2023, 05:18:24 pm »
Anyone else remember all of the fake cellphone batteries that littered the market when batteries were replaceable? No? just me?
It is not just you. A battery (likely not original) in my wife's phone decided to inflate and emit some smoke. But this was a long time ago.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2023, 06:49:20 pm »
this was true for older phones (and iphones) it's not true anymore for actual iphones.
the battery becomes a nightmare to replace, even for people that have the skill AND the tools to do it
you need special tools to heat the device and actually be able to unglue it.
and you must glue the device back once you changed the battery.
Yes, you have to replace the adhesive because it’s how they achieve the waterproofing. (Like every waterproof phone.)

The adhesives aren’t there to artificially make repair harder, but to make phones waterproof (which has dramatically reduced the chances of water damage), as well as to eliminate rattles and vibration/resonance. It’s a pain in the ass to deal with, but it’s there for good reason.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2023, 06:51:04 pm »
I'm not familiar with all of the devices that tszaboo mentions with odd connectors for charging. Everything handheld that I've purchased in the past decade or so has had micro-B, and then increasingly C type USB connectors for charging. It took me a long time to realize that the EU mandating USB C was in reality all about forcing Apple to toe the line. Is there a similarly unspoken motivation behind the replaceable battery mandate?

Loads of early mobile phones had proprietary charging connectors, flip phones and feature phones up through 2010 or so, but this hasn't been an issue for a long time.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2023, 06:56:02 pm »
I'd rather not carry my lab with me in outdoor trips when I have 2 additional batteries with me.
For some reasons I prefer them over a 0.5 Kg power bank.

I have a power bank that fits in my pocket and will recharge my phone numerous times. I keep a larger one in my backpack that will recharge the phone dozens of times, even that one is not very heavy. Best of all it doesn't just charge my phone, it will charge my bluetooth headphones, Kindle reader, and any other USB devices, it has enough power that I can share with friends and charge their devices too. Way easier than carrying around a bunch of spare batteries.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2023, 07:00:27 pm »
Having visited the US for the first time recently, I get the feeling that the US focusses on different areas but has just as many rules that could be perceived as overzealous. Like California where the restaurant menus need to show the calories of every portion. Or intersections with stop signs.

California is a nutty place, Prop 65 that results in cancer warnings on absolutely everything is the poster child of this craziness. They even banned ordinary screw base light sockets which now has the effect of forcing people to use obsolete compact fluorescent bulbs instead of modern high efficiency LED bulbs, or to use sketchy adapters from China or bring in proper light fixtures from other states.

Calories on menu items are convenient though, we have that here, I don't know if it's required but I find it useful. Stop signs on intersections too, how could you drive safely without those? Uncontrolled intersections are fine in residential neighborhoods where traffic is very light but it would be very dangerous to have a street like this intersecting a busy arterial without a stop sign.
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2023, 07:06:52 pm »
California is a nutty place, Prop 65 that results in cancer warnings on absolutely everything is the poster child of this craziness. They even banned ordinary screw base light sockets which now has the effect of forcing people to use obsolete compact fluorescent bulbs instead of modern high efficiency LED bulbs, or to use sketchy adapters from China or bring in proper light fixtures from other states.
California is a nutty place, but I see restrictions on unapproved screw base light bulbs being sold in California, I don't see restrictions on screw base light sockets. (And I see that this plain socket is for sale in Home Depots in California, which suggests they aren't actually banned.)
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2023, 07:16:03 pm »
California is a nutty place, Prop 65 that results in cancer warnings on absolutely everything is the poster child of this craziness. They even banned ordinary screw base light sockets which now has the effect of forcing people to use obsolete compact fluorescent bulbs instead of modern high efficiency LED bulbs, or to use sketchy adapters from China or bring in proper light fixtures from other states.
California is a nutty place, but I see restrictions on unapproved screw base light bulbs being sold in California, I don't see restrictions on screw base light sockets. (And I see that this plain socket is for sale in Home Depots in California, which suggests they aren't actually banned.)

Maybe something has changed? I know for a while houses all had to have light fixtures with those GU-something or other bipin sockets for CFLs, they never really caught on anywhere else. Maybe it specifically applied to built in fixtures in new houses, I don't know the specifics of the law but it's possible they had the sense to get rid of it eventually.
 

Offline eugene

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2023, 08:03:26 pm »
I'm not familiar with all of the devices that tszaboo mentions with odd connectors for charging. Everything handheld that I've purchased in the past decade or so has had micro-B, and then increasingly C type USB connectors for charging. It took me a long time to realize that the EU mandating USB C was in reality all about forcing Apple to toe the line. Is there a similarly unspoken motivation behind the replaceable battery mandate?

Loads of early mobile phones had proprietary charging connectors, flip phones and feature phones up through 2010 or so, but this hasn't been an issue for a long time.

Exactly. Reminds me of an old saying... something about closing the barn door after the horse has gotten out.

Next there will be mandates about indoor gas lighting having approved chimneys and plow horses receiving proper nourishment.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 
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Offline eugene

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2023, 08:11:48 pm »
California is a nutty place, Prop 65 that results in cancer warnings on absolutely everything is the poster child of this craziness. They even banned ordinary screw base light sockets which now has the effect of forcing people to use obsolete compact fluorescent bulbs instead of modern high efficiency LED bulbs, or to use sketchy adapters from China or bring in proper light fixtures from other states.
California is a nutty place, but I see restrictions on unapproved screw base light bulbs being sold in California, I don't see restrictions on screw base light sockets. (And I see that this plain socket is for sale in Home Depots in California, which suggests they aren't actually banned.)

Maybe something has changed? I know for a while houses all had to have light fixtures with those GU-something or other bipin sockets for CFLs, they never really caught on anywhere else. Maybe it specifically applied to built in fixtures in new houses, I don't know the specifics of the law but it's possible they had the sense to get rid of it eventually.

California is a nutty place. Actually, with the deep bifurcation splitting the country neatly in half, I'd say all of America is nutty.

But, most laws like this apply only to new construction. When there was talk about outlawing gas stoves it raised hysteria in some of the population that the government was going to come and take their gas stove away. In reality, the proposal would have applied only to new home construction. Under the proposal, people that already had a gas stove would be able to continue using it, and could even replace it with another gas stove when the time came. Some people are stupid. I know that to be the case in America and assume it to be true everywhere else.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2023, 08:32:08 pm »
To quote Dijkstra:
Quote
Object-oriented programming is an exceptionally bad idea which could only have originated in California.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2023, 10:21:02 pm »
Stop signs on intersections too, how could you drive safely without those? Uncontrolled intersections are fine in residential neighborhoods where traffic is very light but it would be very dangerous to have a street like this intersecting a busy arterial without a stop sign.

Er, well, there's the whole 'yield' concept, which is what you all do anyway because coming to a complete stop over and over again for nothing when you have enough visibility to see the curvature of the earth is totally pointless.
 

Offline John B

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2023, 10:26:50 pm »
I see the California-cancer warning label on lots of products that are exported from the US.

I keep thinking to myself "Wow, California is a dangerous place for getting cancer. Who would ever want to go there??"
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2023, 12:47:09 am »
But, most laws like this apply only to new construction. When there was talk about outlawing gas stoves it raised hysteria in some of the population that the government was going to come and take their gas stove away. In reality, the proposal would have applied only to new home construction. Under the proposal, people that already had a gas stove would be able to continue using it, and could even replace it with another gas stove when the time came. Some people are stupid. I know that to be the case in America and assume it to be true everywhere else.

Whether it applies only to new construction or impacts existing homes makes little difference to me. I love my gas stove and will accept no substitutes, and if I ever choose to buy a different house it had better have a gas hookup. I can completely see why people were upset about this law, whether the government comes and takes their gas stove, or makes it so when they decide to build their custom dream house somewhere down the road and are not allowed to have a gas hookup makes little difference, the outcome is the same. Also outlawing gas stoves in new construction has the effect of greatly reducing demand and turning them into a specialized (very expensive) item for replacement uses. Not to mention the whole thing is completely stupid, natural gas burns very clean, it's plentiful and relatively cheap, and if you want heat, it makes so much more sense to burn the fuel right there in your home than to generate electricity and use resistance elements. You can't cook on a heat pump.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2023, 12:51:46 am »
I see the California-cancer warning label on lots of products that are exported from the US.

I keep thinking to myself "Wow, California is a dangerous place for getting cancer. Who would ever want to go there??"

That's due to Prop 65, which was a law created on good intentions but extremely poorly implemented. As the law is written, there is no threshold under which something is declared safe, so even the most minuscule quantity of some substance gets it flagged as being there. The list of substances is absolutely huge and covers a wide range of stuff, much of which is not really even known to be harmful. On top of that, you can be penalized for not applying the label to a product that contains some substance on the list but there is no penalty for applying the label to products that do not, so generally the safest approach is just slap the warning on absolutely everything just in case. A warning that is on everything tells you nothing, it is completely useless.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2023, 12:57:52 am »
Er, well, there's the whole 'yield' concept, which is what you all do anyway because coming to a complete stop over and over again for nothing when you have enough visibility to see the curvature of the earth is totally pointless.

We have yield signs too where it is not readily obvious who has the right of way. But stop signs are most often used where a lightly trafficked street intersects a much more heavily trafficked street, you don't want to make everyone on the busy street have to slow down and yield at every intersection, so they're allowed to just blast through and anyone wishing to enter traffic must stop at the stop sign and wait until it is safe to proceed. Usually there is not sufficient visibility, that's the issue. At least where I am is very hilly and heavily forested, the roads twist and turn due to geography, there is absolutely nowhere anywhere close to me that you can see the curvature of the earth except for the coast where you can look out over the Pacific Ocean. Failure to come to a complete stop at a stop sign is an offense, you'll get pulled over and issued a fine if a police officer sees you do it. People get killed by someone running stop signs, I know a guy who lost a leg because somebody ran a stop sign and t-boned him on his motorcycle.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2023, 01:16:33 am »
I see the California-cancer warning label on lots of products that are exported from the US.

I keep thinking to myself "Wow, California is a dangerous place for getting cancer. Who would ever want to go there??"

That's due to Prop 65, which was a law created on good intentions but extremely poorly implemented. As the law is written, there is no threshold under which something is declared safe, so even the most minuscule quantity of some substance gets it flagged as being there. The list of substances is absolutely huge and covers a wide range of stuff, much of which is not really even known to be harmful. On top of that, you can be penalized for not applying the label to a product that contains some substance on the list but there is no penalty for applying the label to products that do not, so generally the safest approach is just slap the warning on absolutely everything just in case. A warning that is on everything tells you nothing, it is completely useless.

Informing people is a good thing - although here it seems extreme and thus, pretty useless - but OTOH, by constantly exposing people to the idea of almost anything potentially causing cancer, I would think that it could cause constant, if low-level stress to people and possibly even end up actually triggering cancer for some.
If you leave in constant awareness, and fear of some deadly disease, that's not all that great for your health.
Just saying.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2023, 01:26:17 am »
Informing people is a good thing - although here it seems extreme and thus, pretty useless - but OTOH, by constantly exposing people to the idea of almost anything potentially causing cancer, I would think that it could cause constant, if low-level stress to people and possibly even end up actually triggering cancer for some.
If you leave in constant awareness, and fear of some deadly disease, that's not all that great for your health.
Just saying.

That's why I say that the law was based on good intentions, I agree, informing people is good. But when the list of things you are informing them "may cause cancer" is so broad, contains zero context and is written such that it's safer to just slap it on everything then it's not really informing anyone. For a warning to be useful it needs to be selective, warn people when something contains more than a certain threshold of substances KNOWN to be truly dangerous, that could be useful. A warning that applies to everything doesn't really inform you of anything.
 


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