Author Topic: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones  (Read 7175 times)

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Offline HalcyonTopic starter

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EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« on: June 19, 2023, 01:57:04 am »


Also, nice like shout out to Dave around 7:45
 
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Offline John B

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2023, 02:03:58 am »
Much like with the Amazon situation, I have to wonder if trying to steer the major companies using legal means is really the way to go since they have made it 100% clear the direction they want their products to go in in terms of repairability, security and the concept that their customers actually own their products.

However I don't know much in the way of alternatives. About the best I'm planning to upgrade to is a Google Pixel loaded with GrapheneOS, or something lower end with LineageOS.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2023, 02:07:23 am »
And to provide the typical wet-blanket response that nobody asked for:   ;)

Except that the replacement batteries are shit and the brand batteries are just expensive re-branded shit.

Tell us this. When they say mandate, does that mean the entire phone battery supply or just a port with a removable battery? Can you still produce a phone with a fixed battery provided you provide removable battery? And does it extend all the way down to, say, a RTC battery?

iratus parum formica
 

Online xrunner

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2023, 02:08:59 am »
But I invested in all the disassembly tools!  :wtf:
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 
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Offline Infraviolet

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2023, 03:10:50 am »
No fan of governments/ groups of governments mandating anything, but forcing phones to have replacabale batteries is very sensible indeed, it should not have taken them so long to start insisting on it. However they probably should go further to, force phone manufacturers to have a fully standardised form factor for pouch cells, the way AA is a standard for alkaline and NiMH cells, and 18650 is a standard for hard cased lithium cylinder cells... Its actually very hard to find two pouch cells from different manufacturers with the same dimensions and capacity, makes it tricky to mechanically design things when you can't be sure you'll always have the same cell type available, let alone with the complexities phone manufacturers add by having different connector pinouts and contact shapes even on the same sized cell. A proper standardisation would be very welcome, and that way you'd be able to find decent quality replacement batteries made to that standard form factor from many decent generic manufacturers and the same sort from the official manufacturer, rather than the curent situation where there might be just one sketchy sounding manufacturer making copies (or sketchy manufactuers making doubly poor quaity copies then fake-marking them as official brand) of that weird shaped cell which the official manufacturer hasn't made for years. Would be helpful beyond hpoens too, if puch cells staretd to have proper standard designs it would make it much easier for designing things like small RC cars much easier(obviously high powered packs for higher performance RC are far bigger than phone related standard would help standardise).
 

Offline HalcyonTopic starter

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2023, 03:19:21 am »
I wonder what the tradeoff will be? Smaller capacity batteries? Lower quality so the manufacturer can sell more replacements?

I do agree though, the whole water restiveness argument is moot. There were several phones with removable covers/batteries that were water resistant, if not water tight. I had a Motorola Defy back in the day which was fully submersible. How many people got their old Nokia's wet and they were perfectly fine (although they weren't meant to get wet).
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2023, 03:21:47 am »
And to provide the typical wet-blanket response that nobody asked for:   ;)

Except that the replacement batteries are shit and the brand batteries are just expensive re-branded shit.


  Have you looked on E-bay or Amazon?  I've been able to buy batteries for ALL of my devices on there for a fraction of what the OEMs want for them.   Replacement batteries for my DLSR camera were about $60 from Olympus but about $6 from Amazon.  One website tested them and found that they actually held a longer charge than the factory batteries.  Factory batteries, like the factory tires on new cars, are shiit anyway.

  But yeah I agree.  The GOV needs to mandate that all batteries be a standard form factor and not just some standard battery in a custom propriatory shell that cost 20x as much.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2023, 04:14:34 am »
You're maybe missing a major point here.

I don't think there's anything in that mandate that says the phones should be priced identically to what they were before. In other words, it might not be a bad deal for manufacturers.
They'll sell new phones at a +30% premium with all the free green advertisement that goes with this.

But let me know if I missed it in the mandate, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

News at 11.

 

Offline Tomorokoshi

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2023, 04:23:01 am »
I disagree with the legislation and Rossmann's arguments.

I replaced the batteries in old iPhones with $20 kits that included both the battery and the tool. It takes me an hour. They last just fine.

Regarding replaceability, for the iPhone anyway it's a few screws, the tape that is removed using by pulling on the special tab, and then it comes out. It actually isn't that hard do to.

Here is a technical detail that I would like to see addressed:

The battery in an iPhone (not sure about Android; perhaps they are similar) uses a couple strips of double-sided tape to hold it to the aluminum back panel. This provides both a secure physical bond and, more importantly, a secure thermal bond.

With high usage or high charge-rates those phones can get hot. The heat from the battery is primarily dissipated to the back case. If the battery is replaceable, it would likely (due to other EU safety standards) require an enclosure of some type. This will require a low thermal-resistance path to the case. Certainly this could be done with a battery thermally potted in a thin aluminum housing, which is then thermally connected to the case using something like a compliant thermal pad. What will this cost compared to having a shop do it? How much thicker will it make the phone?
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2023, 05:58:37 am »
I replaced the batteries in old iPhones with $20 kits that included both the battery and the tool. It takes me an hour. They last just fine.

Regarding replaceability, for the iPhone anyway it's a few screws, the tape that is removed using by pulling on the special tab, and then it comes out. It actually isn't that hard do to.

It is not hard to do for you and me, and many of the readers on this forum. But it is beyond imagination for 98% of the larger population of phone users. So there clearly is room (and need) for improvement.
 
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Offline kripton2035

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2023, 06:13:42 am »
I replaced the batteries in old iPhones with $20 kits that included both the battery and the tool. It takes me an hour. They last just fine.
Regarding replaceability, for the iPhone anyway it's a few screws, the tape that is removed using by pulling on the special tab, and then it comes out. It actually isn't that hard do to.
this was true for older phones (and iphones) it's not true anymore for actual iphones.
the battery becomes a nightmare to replace, even for people that have the skill AND the tools to do it
you need special tools to heat the device and actually be able to unglue it.
and you must glue the device back once you changed the battery.
 
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Offline wilfred

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2023, 06:54:35 am »
They should go even further with power tools and domestic appliances like vacuum cleaners having a standard off-the-shelf compatible battery pack. Then you could go to the shop and buy a replacement from about 5 or 6 different ones. No more throwing away perfectly servicable tools (or batteries) for want of an easy reasonably priced and readily available replacement.

You wouldn't need a drawer full of chargers, or a bench covered in different chargers.

Ultimately I'd like to see EVs with replaceable battery modules so that when a secondhand vehicle is sold you can upgrade the very expensive and probably no-longer available battery to get another 10 years life. EVs ought to have longer life due to lack of a complex mechanical drivetrain.

With what goes on with ink cartridges, toner cartridges, razor refills. and any number of replaceable wear items like mower blades, filters and so on, mandated standards could have been done 50 years ago. If a drill bit can fit a drill made 100 years ago it shows it can be done.
 
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Offline tom66

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2023, 08:55:13 am »
Without looking at the video, would two screws (of a standard type) and a normal PCB connector be acceptable for a 'removable' configuration?  It would allow manufacturers to create thin, water-resistant phones (no need to build e.g. plastic clipping backs with complex seals) whilst complying with the spirit of the law.

Generally I'm in favour of giving private industry a 'push' in the right direction.  It's worked well in the past, see for instance vehicle safety requirements.  ADAS cameras are now standard, they used to add 1,500 euros to the cost of a car but because they're fitted to practically every medium size car upwards they have plummeted in price.  They're only fitted because Euro NCAP won't give you five stars if you don't have lane departure and pedestrian avoidance.

They should go even further with power tools and domestic appliances like vacuum cleaners having a standard off-the-shelf compatible battery pack. Then you could go to the shop and buy a replacement from about 5 or 6 different ones. No more throwing away perfectly servicable tools (or batteries) for want of an easy reasonably priced and readily available replacement.

Yes!  This!  Why does every power tool maker create their own 18V battery system?  I should be able to use a Makita battery on a Bosch drill if I damn well want to. 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2023, 08:56:46 am by tom66 »
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2023, 09:40:21 am »
I'm sure you can use an adapter if you want, but in any case I don't think power tools are really a problem. If the battery I happen to be using on my DeWalt drill fails, I can just buy a new one and swap it in seconds. The battery isn't such an integral part of the drill that I have to throw away an otherwise serviceable drill, nor is it so expensive that it makes sense to buy a new drill kit including a battery anyway.

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2023, 09:41:31 am »
I don't know how they do it, but 500 pages rambling about batteries.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2023-0237_EN.pdf

From the looks of it their main focus is the growing EV and other e-mobility markets which is a rampant problem with a lot of high capacity batteries with a short lifetime. Sometimes irremavable or flammable.

Quote from: page 177
The obligations laid down in paragraph 1 shall not apply where continuity of power
supply is necessary and a permanent connection between the product and the
respective portable battery is required to ensure the safety of the user and the
appliance or, for products that collect and supply data as their main function, for
data integrity reasons.
So, that applies to phones right, right?  :P
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2023, 10:00:53 am »
Quote from: page 177
The obligations laid down in paragraph 1 shall not apply where continuity of power
supply is necessary and a permanent connection between the product and the
respective portable battery is required to ensure the safety of the user and the
appliance or, for products that collect and supply data as their main function, for
data integrity reasons.
So, that applies to phones right, right?  :P

No, that exemption does not apply to mobile phones. It does not exempt all "products that collect and supply data as their main function", but only those where continuous operation is required for data integrity reasons. Gotta brush up your Legalese...  ;)
 

Offline tom66

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2023, 12:29:11 pm »
I'm sure you can use an adapter if you want, but in any case I don't think power tools are really a problem. If the battery I happen to be using on my DeWalt drill fails, I can just buy a new one and swap it in seconds. The battery isn't such an integral part of the drill that I have to throw away an otherwise serviceable drill, nor is it so expensive that it makes sense to buy a new drill kit including a battery anyway.

The advantage of a universal battery system would, however, be that you could buy a good OEM third party battery.  Bosch might sell a cheaper battery for your Makita drill, and it'll still last a decent amount of time because Bosch have a reputation to keep.

It would also help if systems go obsolete.  A friend of mine is trying to buy old batteries for their Bosch battery lawnmower made in 2008, but Bosch doesn't support the slightly weird 22V system it used any more. 

Admittedly this kind of thing is a lot harder to standardise upon, you'd need a range of battery options for professionals and high power tools, and no doubt some tools would need entirely proprietary batteries due to special applications (I'm not going to put an 18V battery in my battery-powered hot glue gun, after all.)
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2023, 12:55:50 pm »
Why would you want battery operated tools anyway? For construction workers that have no outlet available it may make sense but for around the house a corded tool is easier. A couple of years ago I bought a Makita electric screw driver with a cord. I find that way more convenient than dealing with batteries all the time. And it has more torque while being lighter to handle.
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Offline tom66

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2023, 01:17:20 pm »
Why would you want battery operated tools anyway? For construction workers that have no outlet available it may make sense but for around the house a corded tool is easier. A couple of years ago I bought a Makita electric screw driver with a cord. I find that way more convenient than dealing with batteries all the time. And it has more torque while being lighter to handle.

I don't understand.  Why *wouldn't* you want a battery operated tool, all else being equal?  My drill, impact driver and jigsaw are all battery powered.  I'm usually just doing short jobs, so it's enough to keep the second battery on the charger if I expect the first to run out.  And the impact driver has more than enough torque. That way I don't need to worry about where I'm plugging it in, tripping over the cord, or keeping the cord out of the way of anything.

Sure, I wouldn't want a battery powered SDS hammer-drill for going through brick or the like*, that kind of has to be mains powered for endurance, but a lot of power tools work fine on batteries for 'home DIY' levels of usage and given their proliferation in the professional market it seems like tradespeople agree too.

*That said I know an electrician who has one because he's not sure if the job-site will have power available when he needs to drill.    But I can imagine their endurance is not great given my one pulls 1200W at full speed.  I guess buy a few spare batteries if you expect to need that.
 
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Offline eugene

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2023, 02:09:46 pm »
I replaced the batteries in old iPhones with $20 kits that included both the battery and the tool. It takes me an hour. They last just fine.

Regarding replaceability, for the iPhone anyway it's a few screws, the tape that is removed using by pulling on the special tab, and then it comes out. It actually isn't that hard do to.

It is not hard to do for you and me, and many of the readers on this forum. But it is beyond imagination for 98% of the larger population of phone users. So there clearly is room (and need) for improvement.

I don't see this as a problem. Almost nobody that I know (except me) would replace the battery in their car themselves, or even change the oil. How about watch batteries? Everyone takes them somewhere that will do the job while the wait.

I don't know actual numbers, but I'm willing to bet that more cracked screens on smart phones get replaced than batteries. Should the government mandate that touch screens be user replaceable too? I hope not; it'll drive up the price of phones.

Honestly, I don't know what the issue is anyway. I typically keep a phone for two or three years and have never had to replace a battery.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2023, 02:13:33 pm by eugene »
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 
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Online NiHaoMike

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2023, 02:11:53 pm »
They should go even further with power tools and domestic appliances like vacuum cleaners having a standard off-the-shelf compatible battery pack. Then you could go to the shop and buy a replacement from about 5 or 6 different ones. No more throwing away perfectly servicable tools (or batteries) for want of an easy reasonably priced and readily available replacement.
Ryobi already did it, you can use a new battery on a 15 year old drill or an old battery (if you somehow still had one that works) on a new tool.
Why would you want battery operated tools anyway? For construction workers that have no outlet available it may make sense but for around the house a corded tool is easier.
You answered your own question, extend that to any situation where it's bothersome to run a cord. That said, I really want to see a lot more combo corded/cordless tools.
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Offline eugene

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2023, 02:12:00 pm »
Why would you want battery operated tools anyway?

For the same reason that I haven't bought a desktop computer in at least 15 years.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2023, 02:28:24 pm »
Honestly, I don't know what the issue is anyway. I typically keep a phone for two or three years [...]

That's the issue right there. ;)

Discarding a phone after only two or three years is wasteful. Why do you replace it after such a short time? I have not observed rapid technical progress over the past decade which would justify that. Weakening battery performance or lack of software upgrades seem the likely candidates -- and both are entirely due to the manufacturers' unwillingness to support their products through a decent lifecycle.
 

Offline eugene

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2023, 02:43:34 pm »
You make a good point. I typically replace phones that often because they're beat up by then and need replacement. I don't like those thick rubber cases since I carry it in my front pants pocket.

Phones could be made more durable so as to last perhaps twice as long, but then they would cost twice as much.  :D
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Offline Infraviolet

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Re: EU votes to mandate removable batteries in smartphones
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2023, 03:41:38 pm »
"two screws (of a standard type) and a normal PCB connector be acceptable for a 'removable' configuration?"
Definitely ought to, always more maintainable than things which try to have a tool-less snap fit connection. The sort of people who don't own even basic screwdrivers are the sort of people who'd never even imagine thinking about fixing (or doing anything at all) anything for themselves.

Whilst at it, ban snap fit connections on the housing of electronic devices, screws everywhere so you can open and close them without risking shattering them.
 


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