EV-based road transportation is not viable

[tom66]

And yet there's already BEVs on the market with more than double that range at that price point, if not lower. Smaller than a Rio, admittedly, but that's more to do with the Rio not being that small or cheap.

Yep, for instance - Rio is about £16k and you can/could get a 150 mile range Skoda Citigo for £17.5k.  Though it's been discontinued now because of parts shortages.

https://www.kia.com/uk/new-cars/rio/pricing/
https://ev-database.org/uk/car/1190/Skoda-CITIGOe-iV

So not at cost parity yet (the Citigo is a slightly smaller car, too) but not far off.

[MadScientist]

Horses are a great option for short commutes.

However it would never catch on. Horses don't have bluetooth and buying an addon accessory (Bluetooth speaker) because its not integrated into the horse it would be considered "such a last year manuver" and the stock price of Horses would plummet.

But who cares what they think, I say bring on the horses! They can eat parking tickets all day.

And for us poorer folk, the donkeys.

Clearly the lunatics take taken over if we’re diverting into talking about horses. !!

We have a “ travelling “ community that retain horses they suffer appalling abuse on metalled roads and sulky racing on motorways ( look up sulky ) horses for transport are best left in the movies.

Clearly the debate has breached the nonsense argument point the BEVs have it sir.

[Wallace Gasiewicz]

As I recall from one of my safety courses, the road accident rate went way down after powered vehicles took over from horses.
This even in the face of the fact that the very old automobiles were not very safe from today's standards.

[MadScientist]

As I recall from one of my safety courses, the road accident rate went way down after powered vehicles took over from horses.
This even in the face of the fact that the very old automobiles were not very safe from today's standards.

There’s one advantage I learned to plough as a kid behind a horse and that horse used take its owner to and from the pub , the horse knew the way so he could be blind drunk and the horse used take him home. Musk has a way to go yet,  to replicate that !   

[Wallace Gasiewicz]

Mad:

I also remember a milkman making rounds in Warsaw. He would walk beside the horse-drawn cart and the horse would stop at delivery point. He would then exchange the empty bottles on the doorstep for full bottles. When he put the empties in the cart, the horse would start up again and go to the next delivery point.
All this without any GPS, Bluetooth, battery or even a transistor involved.

Still strikes me as a very efficient system for the specific purpose
I think it beats the devil out of drone delivery in most aspects.

"Clearly the lunatics take taken over if we’re diverting into talking about horses. !!"  Absolutely!!!

[tom66]

I remember the old lead-acid powered milk floats coming around here - the idea being I suppose that they could deliver at 5am and not awaken their customers with the noise of an engine.  But, they all seem to use Transits and the like now.  Has the noise of the vehicles decreased enough that this is not seen as an issue any more - or do customers and suppliers not care so much any more, I wonder.

[tggzzz]

I remember the old lead-acid powered milk floats coming around here - the idea being I suppose that they could deliver at 5am and not awaken their customers with the noise of an engine.

Probably partly to do with the fact that older houses walls were much thinner and noise levels were naturally quieter to begin with what with a lack of road noise to begin with, re lower traffic.

Around here older houses have thicker walls. In the case of my parents' house, about 3ft/80cm thick at ground level and 1ft/25cm thick on the 3rd floor.

[tggzzz]

Horses are a great option for short commutes.

However it would never catch on. Horses don't have bluetooth and buying an addon accessory (Bluetooth speaker) because its not integrated into the horse it would be considered "such a last year manuver" and the stock price of Horses would plummet.

But who cares what they think, I say bring on the horses! They can eat parking tickets all day.

And for us poorer folk, the donkeys.

Until 1997 horses were used in London to deliver beer

A leading brewery has decided to end daily deliveries to pubs by horse- drawn drays because of an increasing number of accidents involving motor vehicles, and complaints by irate drivers.

Young's Brewery, in Wandsworth, south-west London, from which horses have been used to take out beer for 400 years, says it is no longer fair on the animals to subject them to abuse and danger from motorists, even though they are more cost-effective than diesel-powered lorries.

[themadhippy]

Until 1997 horses were used in London to deliver beer

hook norton still do,all be it to  a few pubs local to the brewery

[tom66]

Around here older houses have thicker walls. In the case of my parents' house, about 3ft/80cm thick at ground level and 1ft/25cm thick on the 3rd floor.

More important is probably double (or now triple) glazing with frames that are properly fitted - these do offer a noticeable benefit in traffic noise.

[nctnico]

Around here older houses have thicker walls. In the case of my parents' house, about 3ft/80cm thick at ground level and 1ft/25cm thick on the 3rd floor.

More important is probably double (or now triple) glazing with frames that are properly fitted - these do offer a noticeable benefit in traffic noise.

You have to define 'older' here. Homes build from the early 1900's to 90's are likely not build to high standards.

[tom66]

You have to define 'older' here. Homes build from the early 1900's to 90's are likely not build to high standards.

Around here, many homes have retrofitted double glazing.  Single glazing is still seen, but given it usually only costs a few thousand pounds to get it done, it is a common improvement made as the benefit on heating and comfort is notable.   Is that not common in the Netherlands?

[SiliconWizard]

When you have an oldish construction with single glazed windows, switching to double glazed often requires changing the frame of the window and making it fully custom, so this has some non-negligible cost. Not a big deal for just a couple windows, but if you have many windows to do that quickly becomes a significant investment.

In terms of comfort, absolutely no doubt double glazing is eons better. Both in terms of temperature and noise.

[Wallace Gasiewicz]

I remember the old lead-acid powered milk floats coming around here - the idea being I suppose that they could deliver at 5am and not awaken their customers with the noise of an engine.  But, they all seem to use Transits and the like now.  Has the noise of the vehicles decreased enough that this is not seen as an issue any more - or do customers and suppliers not care so much any more, I wonder.

My father in law in Detroit in the 1930s delivered things to companies using a lead acid battery vehicle. The companies had plug ins for the vehicle at the loading dock. But back then he had to unload things by hand. It took a while. Time for the batteries to recharge, This was in the downtown area and I do not know if there was DC available for this purpose, There was a lot of DC available in Detroit because of the electric street railways at the time, Electric Trams were stopped about 1960??? Don't remember exactly. Trams were sold to Mexico City, I think.
Maybe this may be still a viable and economic use of electric vehicles, using cheap lead acid batteries.
There were a few electric vehicles produced in Detroit, including cars, admittedly a little before this.

[nctnico]

You have to define 'older' here. Homes build from the early 1900's to 90's are likely not build to high standards.

Around here, many homes have retrofitted double glazing.  Single glazing is still seen, but given it usually only costs a few thousand pounds to get it done, it is a common improvement made as the benefit on heating and comfort is notable.   Is that not common in the Netherlands?

Double glazing is common on homes built since the 1980's but your 'only costs a few thousand pounds' makes it sound like a no brainer for many but it isn't. And if you need to upgrade the frames as well, you can start adding zeros. Last year I asked for some quotations for having 2 doors and a big window + frames replaced (from double glazing to HR++ glazing and from wooden frames to plastic ones). The lowest quote was around 14k euro. It is around 6k in materials. Yes, I could get a subsidy but doing it myself will still be far cheaper. I've started to gradually upgrade the windows from double glazing to HR++. Doing this myself makes it affordable. There is no payback when having it done by a company.

Similar for putting an organic roof on my shed (just for fun). Since you can get subsidies for organic roofs, prices went insane. It is just a moss blanket with some plants in there. Like 5 euro in materials. 

[tom66]

Double glazing is common on homes built since the 1980's but your 'only costs a few thousand pounds' makes it sound like a no brainer for many but it isn't. And if you need to upgrade the frames as well, you can start adding zeros. Last year I asked for some quotations for having 2 doors and a big window + frames replaced (from double glazing to HR++ glazing and from wooden frames to plastic ones). The lowest quote was around 14k euro. It is around 6k in materials. Yes, I could get a subsidy but doing it myself will still be far cheaper.

Similar for putting an organic roof on my shed (just for fun). Since you can get subsidies for organic roofs, prices went insane. It is just a moss blanket with some plants in there. Like 5 euro in materials. 

Crazy prices.  In my pile of documents when I bought the house I have an invoice for the work: £4,200.  Done in 2015.  Replacement of all existing single glazed frames, windows, back French door and front door with uPVC units.  Total 7 windows, 2 door units.  And the work was warrantied for 10 years too, underwritten by an insurer.  I can't understand how you can add an extra 10k to that unless you're doing up a mansion!

I recently got a quote for a double glazed unit to replace the skylight at the back of the garage: about £250 for the unit, if I fit it myself.

I agree the subsidies distort the market.  Classic example for me is EV charging subsidy.  The last EV charger I had put on cost about £600 - the government grant paid £450 and I paid the rest.  Half of that was the unit, and the other half was for the electrician.  The guy was there for less than an hour and his apprentice did most of the hard work.  I wish I earned as much as those guys, seems like a pretty sweet deal.  But even looking at the unit itself, there's not £300 of electronics there.  A double pole 32 amp contactor, a circuit breaker, a plastic case, type 2 connector and a simple controller - it should cost £100 at most. 

[Black Phoenix]

I agree the subsidies distort the market.  Classic example for me is EV charging subsidy.  The last EV charger I had put on cost about £600 - the government grant paid £450 and I paid the rest.  Half of that was the unit, and the other half was for the electrician.  The guy was there for less than an hour and his apprentice did most of the hard work.  I wish I earned as much as those guys, seems like a pretty sweet deal.  But even looking at the unit itself, there's not £300 of electronics there.  A double pole 32 amp contactor, a circuit breaker, a plastic case, type 2 connector and a simple controller - it should cost £100 at most.

What unit you are talking about? MyEnergi Zappi?

[tom66]

What unit you are talking about? MyEnergi Zappi?

Nope!  This was a bare bones Rolec dumb as a pile of bricks charger, before those were outlawed and had to have some kind of vaguely defined smart functionality.

[Marco]

Double glazing is common on homes built since the 1980's but your 'only costs a few thousand pounds' makes it sound like a no brainer for many but it isn't. And if you need to upgrade the frames as well, you can start adding zeros. Last year I asked for some quotations for having 2 doors and a big window + frames replaced (from double glazing to HR++ glazing and from wooden frames to plastic ones). The lowest quote was around 14k euro. It is around 6k in materials. Yes, I could get a subsidy but doing it myself will still be far cheaper. I've started to gradually upgrade the windows from double glazing to HR++. Doing this myself makes it affordable. There is no payback when having it done by a company.

The pig cycle of construction work can hit really hard, especially for major contractors who don't want to just expand endlessly and then get destroyed on the downturn. Same with heatpump installs at the moment.

[SiliconWizard]

We haven't heard of solar roadways in a while. I miss that!

[MadScientist]

Clearly for loads of reasons horses are not the solution nor anything near it. So less not decent info abject nonsense.

The alternative to petrol powered private transport is (a) BEVs (b) better urban planning to dissuade the use of cars and societal change that incentivises the “ right “ choice and penalises choices that are detrimental to society and the environment . We each don’t live on our personal “ island “ so collective living require compromises

[CatalinaWOW]

Clearly for loads of reasons horses are not the solution nor anything near it. So less not decent info abject nonsense.

The alternative to petrol powered private transport is (a) BEVs (b) better urban planning to dissuade the use of cars and societal change that incentivises the “ right “ choice and penalises choices that are detrimental to society and the environment . We each don’t live on our personal “ island “ so collective living require compromises

All this is true.  But, that approach taken to the limit would force almost everyone to live in high density structures, maybe as nice as the Arcosanti dreams, maybe not so nice.  There are other solutions,  but they have downsides and penalties of their own.  Choosing between them requires making difficult to impossible moral decisions. 

Just one example of a three way choice.    Is it better to:

A: Have a huge number of people living with adequate and equal access to nutrition and health, but with limited opportunities to do anything but routine activities.
B. Have a similar number of people sorted by creativity and capability, with those high on the scale having wider opportunities and those lower on the scale much more restricted.
C. Have a much smaller number of people with access to wide opportunities with no prior assessment of their "worthiness".

There are sound arguments for and against each of these options.  Different people will make different choices.   These differences imply that there is no objective correct answer. 

[vad]

While some EEVBloggers fantasize about penalizing other people for not riding bikes (or electric bikes), GM invests almost a billion dollars into production of V8 ICE engines.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/general-motors-investing-854-million-v8-engines

[Monkeh]

While some EEVBloggers fantasize about penalizing other people for not riding bikes (or electric bikes), GM invests almost a billion dollars into production of V8 ICE engines.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/general-motors-investing-854-million-v8-engines

Because psychopaths (sorry, CEOs) act in the interests of others on a regular basis.

[vad]

Because psychopaths (sorry, CEOs) act in the interests of others on a regular basis.

Successful CEOs listen to consumers. Mad climate scientists and those they brainwashed, apparently represent a tiny fraction of consumer population.