EV-based road transportation is not viable

[james_s]

The charge solution isvt lampposts etc it’s large scale high power “ electric filling stations” and that’s the way it’s going , low power charging has little future as batteries get bigger , hence expect multi station EV charging with high power chargers called “ esso “ etc.

That's nonsense. Tesla themselves have said most people will do most of their charging at home. Being able to plug in your car like a mobile phone and have a full charge in the morning is the single biggest advantage of EVs, the one my EV driving friends all rave about the most, and easily the most compelling reason I would consider owning one. Having to go off and find fuel for my car is a necessary evil with gasoline but I have electricity piped right into my house, why on earth would I ever go off and get it from a more expensive source while putting more wear on the expensive batteries by rapid charging? High power public chargers are a backup plan, to accommodate people that can't charge at home/work/other destinations, and to ease range anxiety and transition from the "petrol mentality" where you drive your car until it's almost empty then go out and fill it up to full again. That isn't how most EV drivers operate, they plug in their car regularly whenever it's convenient to do so. 

[james_s]

If the car can't be practically used due to the condition of the battery pack and that battery pack is cost-prohibitive to replace, your Leaf may well feel obsolete even if you have some other definition for the word.  Even if the battery pack is in OK shape, you have a car with a 60-70 mile range which also feels pretty obsolete by modern standards.  On the other hand, most 2010 Accords will still function as intended and are generally on-par with most modern offerings. 

b/t/w, if I understand it correctly, this website essentially says that BEV penetration in the UK is ~16% of last years sales and ~2% of the total  current vehicle population.  That's a trend, but as I pointed out above, in 1900 BEV penetration was 30%.  We're a long way from ICE extinction.

Depends on what it costs. If I were still commuting to work by car a Leaf would be ideal for me, 50 miles is ample range for most people's daily commute.

My car holds enough gasoline for about 250-300 miles depending on how I drive it. Currently I fill it up about once every 3-4 weeks, it's been a long time since I drove more than 50 miles in a day. Some people do, and for those that is not a workable solution, but they are a small minority and there are other other cars on the market that better meet those needs.

[RJSV]

No matter how you wish it...
   38 miles each way, approx. 2/3 of those Santa Clara County job employees have to go, daily.
That is 38 X 2 = 76 miles MINIMUM per day, no store trip or friends / or relatives, just home to work and back.
   I've seen (clever) maps made by a troublesome fellow (too political), maps to show;
   Relative RENT, for 1 bed apartment, vs. distance (to INTEL, at the time...it doesn't matter).  That map-diagram showed the extreme value, in matters of personal time, vs. cash 'equivalent' of shortening commute.  We are taking about market forces, here, and that personal aspect weighs heavy, on individual choices...i.e. a 'distance tolerance' effect, while many of those / us commuting sort through the options.
   But, yeah, better give up on that ideal, 30 mile total (daily).

[tom66]

No matter how you wish it...
   38 miles each way, approx. 2/3 of those Santa Clara County job employees have to go, daily.
That is 38 X 2 = 76 miles MINIMUM per day, no store trip or friends / or relatives, just home to work and back.
   I've seen (clever) maps made by a troublesome fellow (too political), maps to show;
   Relative RENT, for 1 bed apartment, vs. distance (to INTEL, at the time...it doesn't matter).  That map-diagram showed the extreme value, in matters of personal time, vs. cash 'equivalent' of shortening commute.  We are taking about market forces, here, and that personal aspect weighs heavy, on individual choices...i.e. a 'distance tolerance' effect, while many of those / us commuting sort through the options.
   But, yeah, better give up on that ideal, 30 mile total (daily).

The maths for number of street chargers doesn't particularly matter for car dependent America. Every driveway will have a charger, many workplaces will too.  I'll take a reasonable bet that city dwellers also use their cars less than the more rural/suburban users.  Yes some US towns/cities will need on street charging and charging for apartment blocks, but the density required will surely be much less than most countries except in metropolises like NYC.  You're making a problem out of nothing in the real world - if you have a driveway you can do a 200 mile round trip every day without even considering charging with almost every EV, and some of the newer ones with 100kWh+ batteries can achieve over 300 miles.  With the cost of batteries falling precipitously (they are at around 1/6th what they cost in 2010) it's quite likely that 60-100kWh will become the standard.

If the car can't be practically used due to the condition of the battery pack and that battery pack is cost-prohibitive to replace, your Leaf may well feel obsolete even if you have some other definition for the word.  Even if the battery pack is in OK shape, you have a car with a 60-70 mile range which also feels pretty obsolete by modern standards.  On the other hand, most 2010 Accords will still function as intended and are generally on-par with most modern offerings.

You could call it obsolete if you want, but even as designed the 70 mile range of the Leaf (typically they will go about 50-55 miles now) was never a car to go road tripping in. Those vehicles are really short distance commuter/shopping/school run type cars, they do well going to and from destinations entirely within their battery range.  If you have to stop to charge, you're going to need to wait over an hour.  But you can still use these for their mostly-intended use case, even with a degraded battery pack.   So it's maybe obsolete in that 200 miles is now the standard for an EV but not obsolete in that you can't charge it.

I would call a diesel/petrol car banned by a pollution mandate (e.g. ULEZ zone in London) 'obsolete' because it cannot practically be used in such an area, unless you can afford the daily 'fine' (£12.50 in London).

[nctnico]

Agreed. The whole world is buzzing with hydrogen from renewable sources... History repeats itself. 100+ years ago BEVs already existed and the current BEVs still have the same issues with range and long charging times. And just like oil based fuels, hydrogen has the potential to avoid those issues.

'It works for me so it must work for everyone' isn't a strong argument. The same goes for average distance travelled. Arguing that way is just stupid. It is like saying the average person on the world eats half a slice of bread a day so everyone should be able to do with eating half a slice of bread a day.

The majority of hydrogen available today comes from cracking fossil fuels. Producing it from renewable energy is very inefficient.

What you are missing is that hydrogen is THE KEY ingredient for energy storage. Again: the entire world is moving towards hydrogen production (from wind + solar) and storage. In the next decade hydrogen made from renewable sources will be available in abundance. And cheap. Forecasts say that by 2050 hydrogen can be sold to consumers for US $5 per kilo. Even today it is cheaper to run a car from hydrogen compared to running a BEV from public charging. In every serious article about renewable energy, you'll find hydrogen being part of the solution. Now try to convince me again hydrogen is dead... Hydrogen cars are going to be what the LED lamps are today: a truly better solution compared to what we had. BEVs are the CCFL lamps we used to have as a temporary solution to have more efficient light bulbs.

[tggzzz]

... - if you have a driveway you can do a 200 mile round trip every day without even considering charging with almost every EV, a...

What's the range when the temperature is -5C, or -10C on the driveway overnight (i.e. not in a garage)?

[tggzzz]

Agreed. The whole world is buzzing with hydrogen from renewable sources... History repeats itself. 100+ years ago BEVs already existed and the current BEVs still have the same issues with range and long charging times. And just like oil based fuels, hydrogen has the potential to avoid those issues.

'It works for me so it must work for everyone' isn't a strong argument. The same goes for average distance travelled. Arguing that way is just stupid. It is like saying the average person on the world eats half a slice of bread a day so everyone should be able to do with eating half a slice of bread a day.

The majority of hydrogen available today comes from cracking fossil fuels. Producing it from renewable energy is very inefficient.

What you are missing is that hydrogen is THE KEY ingredient for energy storage. Again: the entire world is moving towards hydrogen production (from wind + solar) and storage. In the next decade hydrogen made from renewable sources will be available in abundance. And cheap. Forecasts say that by 2050 hydrogen can be sold to consumers for US $5 per kilo. Even today it is cheaper to run a car from hydrogen compared to running a BEV from public charging. In every serious article about renewable energy, you'll find hydrogen being part of the solution. Now try to convince me again hydrogen is dead... Hydrogen cars are going to be what the LED lamps are today: a truly better solution compared to what we had. BEVs are the CCFL lamps we used to have as a temporary solution to have more efficient light bulbs.

Hydrogen is one possible ingredient for energy storage. Water is another - and one that is proven to work at a grid scale, and is used at grid scale.

What is the volume of a hydrogen tank compared with that of a petrol/diesel tank? (Hint: petrol/diesel 34MJ/l, compressed hydrogen (700 bar!) 5MJ/l. Hence a 40l tank becomes a 300l tank!)
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/olumetric-and-gravimetric-energy-densities-of-common-fuels_tbl2_235777492

Metal embrittlement is a difficult topic for hydrogen.

Insurance for storing a hydrogen car in a garage? There are already some problems reported with insuring EVs in garages!

[tom66]

... - if you have a driveway you can do a 200 mile round trip every day without even considering charging with almost every EV, a...

What's the range when the temperature is -5C, or -10C on the driveway overnight (i.e. not in a garage)?

Less.  Between 10-25%.   Do you want a more specific example - specify the make and model.  ICE cars experience a fuel economy degradation at cold temperatures too.

One thing that I do not miss with my (PH)EV is the lack of any need to deice the car.  Pre-heated, ice free from my phone within 15 minutes.  The most I had to do recently was brush the snow off the exposed surfaces.

[tggzzz]

I would call a diesel/petrol car banned by a pollution mandate (e.g. ULEZ zone in London) 'obsolete' because it cannot practically be used in such an area, unless you can afford the daily 'fine' (£12.50 in London).

If you commute into central London, you wouldn't use a car - time and car parking are prohibitive (£45/day is typical)

If you live in the ULEZ with a car, £12.50/day is small change.

[tggzzz]

... - if you have a driveway you can do a 200 mile round trip every day without even considering charging with almost every EV, a...

What's the range when the temperature is -5C, or -10C on the driveway overnight (i.e. not in a garage)?

Less.  Between 10-25%.   Do you want a more specific example - specify the make and model.  ICE cars experience a fuel economy degradation at cold temperatures too.

That degredation can be overcome in <60s.

Batteries would take several hours at a medium charge rate. Even longer if the batteries cannot be charged so fast when they are cold.

One thing that I do not miss with my (PH)EV is the lack of any need to deice the car.  Pre-heated, ice free from my phone within 15 minutes.  The most I had to do recently was brush the snow off the exposed surfaces.

Where that is regularly a problem, e.g. Canada, you plug ICE cars in overnight.

[tom66]

If you commute into central London, you wouldn't use a car - time and car parking are prohibitive (£45/day is typical)

If you live in the ULEZ with a car, £12.50/day is small change.

ULEZ is anywhere within the North and South Circular roads, not including those roads itself.  It's a pretty big area to have to pay over a tenner a day to drive in, and not everyone who lives in that area is rich.  (You may have more of a point if you talk about the congestion charge as that's almost all zone 1). 

I know a few people not very happy with it, but ultimately it's one of those taxes that's necessary but never going to be pleasing for those who have to pay it. The whole point of it is to strongly discourage the usage of non ULEZ-compliant vehicles.

[tom66]

That degredation can be overcome in <60s.

Not true.  Tyres are less efficient at lower temperatures, air is denser which is harder to push through,  engines on a stop-start cycle can do that less often due to catalytic and coolant temperatures dropping out of ideal ranges.  If it's raining, this has an impact too, of a few percent (mostly tyres), and if you are in a colder climate you probably have winter tyres on your car for part of the year which has less efficient compound ("grippier" but worse for economy).   There is a slight countering benefit in that colder air is better for an engine, but it doesn't make up for the other costs.  In general, all vehicles are less efficient at lower temperatures; on my hybrid I measure (ignoring all electric consumption) about a 15% difference between hot (~30C) and cold economy (~0C) on long highway runs, with conditions otherwise equal. 

Batteries would take several hours at a medium charge rate. Even longer if the batteries cannot be charged so fast when they are cold.

Again, not true, at least not for any car with a liquid-cooled (heated?) battery pack.  Tesla's can heat the battery in 15 minutes, but they only bother with this when a supercharger is en route because otherwise it's wasted energy compared to the efficiency benefit it provides.  The biggest disadvantage to a cold battery is losing regen braking, and reduced acceleration.  These are inconveniences but in colder weather, you should probably be driving more carefully anyway.

Where that is regularly a problem, e.g. Canada, you plug ICE cars in overnight.

It's a problem in any country that goes below 0C in the winter.  The UK is comparably warm in this respect but we still experience weeks of this type of weather.  Nothing quite beats getting into a warm, defrosted car whilst watching your neighbour scrape ice off their windscreen.  The most inconvenient thing about my car is the mirrors don't de-ice at the same time as the rest of the car, I have to turn the car on to do that.

Block heaters are to do with maintaining start performance, you don't get any particular benefit in terms of pre-heating the cabin or de-icing windows.  You still need to get the coolant to >70C to start having enough benefit to de-ice windows and warm the cabin, and even then you still need to wait for that to actually warm the car enough to get ice off it.

But that's a good point: any country that does have block heaters has the EV charging infrastructure practically done!  120V charging is enough for the average ("mean") user if used overnight.

[nctnico]

I'm mostly concerned with heating of the pack from the atmosphere. Specifically heat from the hot AU summers damaging the pack. Doesn't sound like air cooled battery packs are a wise choice here in AU and therefore I won't be buying an electric car anytime soon.

AFAIK the (early?) Nissan Leafs are the only BEVs out there that have battery packs without thermal management. And these fail regulary in hot climates; then again the Leaf is one of the best selling BEV out there so it could be less of a problem when expressed in a percentage. All other BEVs from respectable brands have proper thermal management (active cooling / heating) in their battery packs.

[tggzzz]

That degredation can be overcome in <60s.

Not true.  Tyres are less efficient at lower temperatures, air is denser which is harder to push through,  engines on a stop-start cycle can do that less often due to catalytic and coolant temperatures dropping out of ideal ranges.  If it's raining, this has an impact too, of a few percent (mostly tyres), and if you are in a colder climate you probably have winter tyres on your car for part of the year which has less efficient compound ("grippier" but worse for economy).   There is a slight countering benefit in that colder air is better for an engine, but it doesn't make up for the other costs.  In general, all vehicles are less efficient at lower temperatures; on my hybrid I measure (ignoring all electric consumption) about a 15% difference between hot (~30C) and cold economy (~0C) on long highway runs, with conditions otherwise equal. 

Please do not snip the context in order to make your strawman argument. That is widely regarded as bad form.

For reference, here is what my statement was referring to, with my added emphasis...

... - if you have a driveway you can do a 200 mile round trip every day without even considering charging with almost every EV, a...

What's the range when the temperature is -5C, or -10C on the driveway overnight (i.e. not in a garage)?

Less.  Between 10-25%.   Do you want a more specific example - specify the make and model.  ICE cars experience a fuel economy degradation at cold temperatures too.

That degredation can be overcome in <60s.

And with an ICE the range degredation can be overcome in <60s - all you have to do is fill up 10-25% of the tank.

Batteries would take several hours at a medium charge rate. Even longer if the batteries cannot be charged so fast when they are cold.

Again, not true, at least not for any car with a liquid-cooled (heated?) battery pack.  Tesla's can heat the battery in 15 minutes, but they only bother with this when a supercharger is en route because otherwise it's wasted energy compared to the efficiency benefit it provides.  The biggest disadvantage to a cold battery is losing regen braking, and reduced acceleration.  These are inconveniences but in colder weather, you should probably be driving more carefully anyway.

If you are spending energy keeping the batteries warm, then I agree.

Public superchargers for N vehicles will for the foreseeable future remain rare, due to the problems with supplying N*50kW through the distribution system. For domestic installations they would require extra infrastructure back to the substation, as the person that bought my parents' house has discovered.

[BrianHG]

These are inconveniences but in colder weather, you should probably be driving more carefully anyway.

WTF?  Outdoor temperature does not determine my speed.  I usually do 120km/h on the highway, whether is is 21deg outside, and even when it is -20deg outside.

[tom66]

Please do not snip the context in order to make your strawman argument. That is widely regarded as bad form.

For reference, here is what my statement was referring to, with my added emphasis...

... - if you have a driveway you can do a 200 mile round trip every day without even considering charging with almost every EV, a...

What's the range when the temperature is -5C, or -10C on the driveway overnight (i.e. not in a garage)?

Less.  Between 10-25%.   Do you want a more specific example - specify the make and model.  ICE cars experience a fuel economy degradation at cold temperatures too.

That degredation can be overcome in <60s.

And with an ICE the range degredation can be overcome in <60s - all you have to do is fill up 10-25% of the tank.

Well - I thought you were referring to the warming of the engine in 60 seconds - which is a reasonable time for a modern ICE with electronic thermostat bypass - so I defend myself, your statement was ambiguous.  My points still stand, all vehicles experience a range loss in colder temps.  Is that more of a hassle for EV users? Sure, I agree. How much of a hassle?  Well, it will depend on the type of journey, of course.  I can count on one hand the number of times I've driven more than 200 miles in the past year, but others will make this a monthly or weekly occurrence.

I would argue that having to stop now-and-then for charging, while inconvenient, is outweighed by never having to refuel for the majority of journeys, for the average user.  How long does an EV take to charge at home?  About 30 seconds... 15 seconds to plug in, 15 seconds to unplug. 

[tom66]

I'm mostly concerned with heating of the pack from the atmosphere. Specifically heat from the hot AU summers damaging the pack. Doesn't sound like air cooled battery packs are a wise choice here in AU and therefore I won't be buying an electric car anytime soon.

AFAIK the (early?) Nissan Leafs are the only BEVs out there that have battery packs without thermal management. And these fail regulary in hot climates; then again the Leaf is one of the best selling BEV out there so it could be less of a problem when expressed in a percentage. All other BEVs from respectable brands have proper thermal management (active cooling / heating) in their battery packs.

All Leaf's from 24 to 62kWh are not even air cooled batteries, purely passive metal plate cooling.  Absolutely terrible design.  Especially bad combined with the terrible chemistry Nissan used on at least the 24 and 30kWh cars.  There genuinely should be a recall on these vehicles, most 24kWh cars are already scrap due to very unhealthy batteries. Meanwhile original Model S and Roadster remain with >85% capacity, so it definitely is possible to build a long life battery... just not for Nissan.

It's not all due to lack of cooling though. e-Golf is an uncooled battery (fan does blow air through pack though unlike Leaf) but lifespan is good.  They used Panasonic cells in that vehicle though. In my GTE, the battery is glycol cooled, probably due to the higher C-rate charge and discharge.

These are inconveniences but in colder weather, you should probably be driving more carefully anyway.

WTF?  Outdoor temperature does not determine my speed.  I usually do 120km/h on the highway, whether is is 21deg outside, and even when it is -20deg outside.

Driving more carefully: less acceleration, longer braking distances.  A Model 3 with LFP does 0-60 in 8s in -20C, but 5s in 20C weather, because battery is power limited.  Still plenty to power car at 120km/h, but will take fractionally longer to get to that speed. 

You'll also find ICE cars accelerate a bit worse in colder weather, so nothing new here.

Edit: corrected typo

[nctnico]

You'll also find ICE cars accelerate a bit worse in colder weather, so nothing new here.

No. Air is more dense when cold so the engine gets more oxygen per air volume and thus can deliver more power. My (gasoline) car has a better fuel economy when it is cold compared to driving when it is warm. If your car shows a 15% difference in fuel economy depending on outside temperature, then something is broken on it.

[tom66]

You'll also find ICE cars accelerate a bit worse in colder weather, so nothing new here.

No. Air is more dense when cold so the engine gets more oxygen per air volume and thus can deliver more power. My (gasoline) car has a better fuel economy when it is cold compared to driving when it is warm. If your car shows a 15% difference in fuel economy depending on outside temperature, then something is broken on it.

No.  Fuel economy is a function of far more than just engine efficiency, as I stated above.  And I've measured the economy on cruise control on two identical routes.  Around 50 mpg in the summer, versus 42 mpg in the winter. If your car gets more efficient in the winter, I'd question the accuracy of the fuel gauge!

In terms of acceleration, the problem you will have once you get below 10s to 60 acceleration is maintaining traction, which tyres are really bad at when cold.  You will also find turbocharger function is worse when cold, because it can't spool up as fast with heavier dense air, so you get much worse 'turbo-lag'.  A naturally aspirated engine may do better, but they're pretty uncommon now.

[tggzzz]

Please do not snip the context in order to make your strawman argument. That is widely regarded as bad form.

For reference, here is what my statement was referring to, with my added emphasis...

... - if you have a driveway you can do a 200 mile round trip every day without even considering charging with almost every EV, a...

What's the range when the temperature is -5C, or -10C on the driveway overnight (i.e. not in a garage)?

Less.  Between 10-25%.   Do you want a more specific example - specify the make and model.  ICE cars experience a fuel economy degradation at cold temperatures too.

That degredation can be overcome in <60s.

And with an ICE the range degredation can be overcome in <60s - all you have to do is fill up 10-25% of the tank.

Well - I thought you were referring to the warming of the engine in 60 seconds - which is a reasonable time for a modern ICE with electronic thermostat bypass - so I defend myself, your statement was ambiguous. 

I really don't see how you could have thought that; see above!

Maybe read more slowly?

My points still stand, all vehicles experience a range loss in colder temps.  Is that more of a hassle for EV users? Sure, I agree. How much of a hassle?  Well, it will depend on the type of journey, of course.  I can count on one hand the number of times I've driven more than 200 miles in the past year, but others will make this a monthly or weekly occurrence.

I would argue that having to stop now-and-then for charging, while inconvenient, is outweighed by never having to refuel for the majority of journeys, for the average user.  How long does an EV take to charge at home?  About 30 seconds... 15 seconds to plug in, 15 seconds to unplug. 

I suspect you live in an urban or suburban area and in the southern parts of the UK, maybe with usable public transport.
If you lived in a rural area or an area where towns are few and far between or where public transport is infrequent, then I doubt your driving would be like that.
And contour lines also make a difference

And it takes infinite time to recharge an EV at home, when there is a power cut. Or, if as proposed in some quarters, the grid system is able to suck power out of your EV's battery in order to make the grid "more resilient".

[tom66]

I suspect you live in an urban or suburban area and in the southern parts of the UK, maybe with usable public transport.
If you lived in a rural area or an area where towns are few and far between or where public transport is infrequent, then I doubt your driving would be like that.

And it takes infinite time to recharge an EV at home, when there is a power cut. Or, if as proposed in some quarters, the grid system is able to suck power out of your EV's battery in order to make the grid "more resilient".

Town of ~30k pop, about an hour and a half from London.  So southern, but definitely more rural than say an exurb of London.  Public transport here is crap, I have used only the trains regularly, but you have to drive to the train station as the buses are not reliable enough to get there.

Do you remember the petrol shortage we had last year?  Having a PHEV I needed to go hunting for petrol.  But it was possible to charge at home, then drive out late at night with my essentially empty petrol tank and queue for petrol.  That wasn't fun; if I had a fully electric car I wouldn't have worried about that one bit, but I guess it's the advantage of having a car with partial electric driving.

The longest power cut I've had was about 20 minutes long a few years back,  but either way,  I'm convinced that availability of petrol and electricity are both around 99.9%, so are a non issue for either technology.   If you're REALLY paranoid about that, go and buy a petrol genset and charge your EV off that for emergencies.  But I doubt it will get much use.  Given an EV under *average usage* will last a week between charges, we'd have to have a really bad power cut for an EV to be useless (and petrol stations need electricity to pump too, so you'd better hope they are not impacted.)  At which point, I'd probably be worrying a lot more about... I dunno, the fridge and freezer's contents, or how I'm going to do my job, or how the boiler is going to work for showers and heating, or how I light the house, or how many candles I have left.

[nctnico]

You'll also find ICE cars accelerate a bit worse in colder weather, so nothing new here.

No. Air is more dense when cold so the engine gets more oxygen per air volume and thus can deliver more power. My (gasoline) car has a better fuel economy when it is cold compared to driving when it is warm. If your car shows a 15% difference in fuel economy depending on outside temperature, then something is broken on it.

No.  Fuel economy is a function of far more than just engine efficiency, as I stated above.  And I've measured the economy on cruise control on two identical routes.  Around 50 mpg in the summer, versus 42 mpg in the winter. If your car gets more efficient in the winter, I'd question the accuracy of the fuel gauge!

Again, that difference is huge and indicates something is broken. Such a difference in fuel consumption is not normal at all!

In terms of acceleration, the problem you will have once you get below 10s to 60 acceleration is maintaining traction, which tyres are really bad at when cold.

If you have tires like that, change them immediately. Those are not safe. I'm using Dunlop Blueresponse tires and notice no difference between warm or cold weather where it comes to grip. This means they'll keep the car on the road in all cirumstances. I value my life above anything else. What you describe reminds of driving around on Michelin Energy tires (which are utter crap).

[tom66]

If you have tires like that, change them immediately. Those are not safe. I'm using Dunlop Blueresponse tires and notice no difference between warm or cold weather where it comes to grip. This means they'll keep the car on the road in all cirumstances. I value my life above anything else. What you describe reminds of driving around on Michelin Energy tires (which are utter crap).

We're talking about -20C here... it will get worse for sure.  I used to put proper winter tyres on my car (Michelin's, not eco ones).  Normally the car does 6.8s to 60 in warm and it definitely got slower due to traction control in colder weather, probably not 10s to 60 but a few seconds at least.  You could also feel the torque steer more, with the ESP system applying braking on the wheels to keep the car straight having to work harder.  Winter tyres have compound that is optimised for colder weather, but they can only do so much when the road is covered in ice crystals, which it will almost certainly be at anything sub -5C.  I'm lucky to have not had to drive in anything much below that, but I'd be amazed if your winter tyres (even the best brand) in the cold could manage the same acceleration figure as summer tyres at 30C.  There's a very good reason they don't hold F1 in the winter, in Europe .

[BrianHG]

These are inconveniences but in colder weather, you should probably be driving more carefully anyway.

WTF?  Outdoor temperature does not determine my speed.  I usually do 120km/h on the highway, whether is is 21deg outside, and even when it is -20deg outside.

Driving more carefully: less acceleration, longer braking distances.  A Model 3 with LFP does 0-60 in 8s in -20C, but 5s in 20C weather, because battery is power limited.  Still plenty to power car at 120km/h, but will take fractionally longer to get to that speed. 

You'll also find ICE cars accelerate a bit worse in colder weather, so nothing new here.

Edit: corrected typo

WTF?  Since when under normal street driving conditions you are using maximum acceleration and maximum braking power?  So much so that you observe slight timing differences always accelerating from 0-60s.  If you are not in a racing environment, such things are mute.

When talking about EV viability, why in the world are we getting into drag racing specs for regular street cars and street driving?

[tggzzz]

I suspect you live in an urban or suburban area and in the southern parts of the UK, maybe with usable public transport.
If you lived in a rural area or an area where towns are few and far between or where public transport is infrequent, then I doubt your driving would be like that.

And it takes infinite time to recharge an EV at home, when there is a power cut. Or, if as proposed in some quarters, the grid system is able to suck power out of your EV's battery in order to make the grid "more resilient".

Town of ~30k pop, about an hour and a half from London.  So southern, but definitely more rural than say an exurb of London.  Public transport here is crap, I have used only the trains regularly, but you have to drive to the train station as the buses are not reliable enough to get there.

If you are where I suspect, I wouldn't call that rural unless you go NE for some unfathomable reason For travelling on public transport, especially to/in London, I use a Brompton bike. (Not electric, since they are heavy enough without that!)

Do you remember the petrol shortage we had last year?  Having a PHEV I needed to go hunting for petrol.  But it was possible to charge at home, then drive out late at night with my essentially empty petrol tank and queue for petrol.  That wasn't fun; if I had a fully electric car I wouldn't have worried about that one bit, but I guess it's the advantage of having a car with partial electric driving.

What's your verdict on PHEVs? My 2003 Toyota will need replacing sometime, and I ought to understand the tradeoffs.

The longest power cut I've had was about 20 minutes long a few years back,  but either way,  I'm convinced that availability of petrol and electricity are both around 99.9%, so are a non issue for either technology.   If you're REALLY paranoid about that, go and buy a petrol genset and charge your EV off that for emergencies.  But I doubt it will get much use.  Given an EV under *average usage* will last a week between charges, we'd have to have a really bad power cut for an EV to be useless (and petrol stations need electricity to pump too, so you'd better hope they are not impacted.)  At which point, I'd probably be worrying a lot more about... I dunno, the fridge and freezer's contents, or how I'm going to do my job, or how the boiler is going to work for showers and heating, or how I light the house, or how many candles I have left.

I grew up revising for school exams by candlelight; I remember what power cuts are like.

We have escaped power cuts this winter by the skin of our teeth: there hasn't been a blocking high pressure sitting on top of us for weeks.

When planned cuts occur, they will start with 3hours/day (plus up to an extra hour for reconnection to occur), increasing to 6-9hours/day and then to 24hours/day in 18 steps. FFI see https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electricity-supply-emergency-code This winter "Programme Yarrow" war planned for us "losing" 40% of the electricity supply. That would have meant very long and frequent cuts. FFI: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/01/government-tests-energy-blackout-emergency-plans-as-supply-fears-grow

I considered a petrol genny, but they were too expensive and childhood experience with petrol lawnmowers taught me not to rely on rarely used petrol engines. Instead I spent £200 on a pure-sine UPS which will be sufficient for gas central heating and freezers for cuts of a few hours. My brother got a lithium battery equivalent of petrol genny, but I distrust fully charged non-name Li batteries, and I wasn't prepared to fork out £500. Lighting is easy: 12V LED strips will run for a very long time from a car battery.

Maybe the electricity supply will be back to normal (i.e. pre-Ukraine) next winter, but I doubt it.