EV-based road transportation is not viable

[tautech]

Its even worse in Australia. People buy caravans to go and look at a vast empty wasteland for 2 weeks.

Some do some don't.
Our son in Perth uses his $30k tandem camper lots over 1000's of km north and south WA.
Before he got it we did the brewery and winery trips and stayed at various south WA tourist spots but that gets expensive and you're never away from the crowd. Some ppl really value that.
Camping trailers OTOH do provide substantially more fruits than a tent as they are equipped with a stove, fridge, sink etc that provide some self sufficiency to allow more than just a night or two to explore a new region while you're figuring out where to take Ma and Pa next time they're over for Xmas. 

When here just a fortnight ago they borrowed our V6 VXII doing 2000km to a few touristy things and visiting friends and family he hadn't seen for years. Even the 20yr old Commodore returned 800km/tank and capable of more when filled with decent fuel rather than this modern low octane crap.

[themadhippy]

Camping trailers OTOH do provide substantially more fruits than a tent as they are equipped with a stove, fridge, sink etc that provide some self sufficiency to allow more than just a night or two to explore a new region

sounds more like glamping.

[tautech]

Camping trailers OTOH do provide substantially more fruits than a tent as they are equipped with a stove, fridge, sink etc that provide some self sufficiency to allow more than just a night or two to explore a new region

sounds more like glamping.

Or necessary protection from the creeping slivering crawlies, some of which are nasty poisonous things.
Ground camping in Oz is full of challenges and some you wouldn't even expect until you've been there.
While not poisonous their Bull ants are a fine example ...... and the fuckers will chase you. 

[MadScientist]

For long trips you can't charge at home so that is out.

Not true, you start with a full battery, unless you forgot to charge it.  So the cost per mile increases the further away from this starting charge you get.  But if you only need to charge once on your trip, e.g. for the return, then it's half the cost and so on.

And you seriously overestimate the cost of servicing a car or even TCO. Number 1 cost is fuel, number 2 is suspension & tires, number 3 is road taxes, number 4 is the rest but at this stage you are in noise.

Servicing for my car is £200 per year (done at an independent shop) because it's a plugin hybrid everything needs to be changed at 10k miles/1yr rather than a regular ICE which might go longer.  Gearbox oil is £300 every 3-4 years (VW ATF is expensive) and timing belt should be done every 6-7 years which is about £1,200.  So all in I reckon £500 per year in servicing. Definitely much less than fuel but not nothing.  And definitely nowhere close to tyres which are £450 for a set which last about 3-4yrs.  The only service an EV really needs is brake fluid and maybe coolant at the 4yr mark.

Sure I could do it all myself but the idea of climbing under my car on the driveway is not attractive at all.  I'd probably screw it up too, knowing my luck.

Looking at the cost of my current car: I've spend about 35k euro on fuel, about 6k euro suspension & tires, another 5k euro on suspension, 4k euro to write it off and about 2k euro on servicing. Cost per km is around 21 eurocents.

Definitely agree depreciation is a huge part of the cost (I guess that's what you put as write off.)  So far my GTE has depreciated at about the same rate as the fuel used to power it (50000 miles, £6500 value lost = 13p/mile.) As for suspension, what are you doing to your car?  I have never needed more than tie rod ends done on my cars and that was a really old knackered piece of crap car.  The suspension on my Golf is fine and it's a 7 year old car.  Worst it has is a slight creak in the back going over a bump, it just needs lubing now and then.  We have plenty of pot holes around here and I've hit a few at speed without breaking anything.  I'd definitely say that's abnormal to have to spend so much on suspension repairs unless you live on a road that is a rumble strip.

Next car is going to be a hybrid and I hope to drive the cost per km down to 18 eurocents. If you actually know about the real servicing costs of a car, then you'd know a BEV is not going to be cheaper to maintain but more expensive due to more wear & tear on the suspension.

We must have completely different experiences because I kept all the costs for my car and used it to build a cost model in Excel.  The EV wins by (literal) miles.  The PHEV is still pretty good but once you go out of its battery range, the cost per mile starts making it harder to justify.  Hence why I'd be looking to replace it soon enough.

As the owner of a 6 year old BEV ( leaf ) with. 250,000km on it. Serving has been negligible and talking other leaf owners suspension issues are non existent , service costs are negligible.

Fast chargers are currently  similar pricing to  domestic day rates and hence cost per mile is way way lower then current petrol costs.

Add in lower annual tax Costs, cheaper fuel , cheaper insurance , very low service costs etc. the annual TCO of the BEV is way lower  then  the equivalent ICE car.

[MadScientist]

So even if you feel EV isn't for you today I doubt you will be saying the same in 2025 - 2030.   Meanwhile where are all the hydrogen models to compete with EVs?

You are forgetting charging costs... an ICE hybrid is cheaper to run over long distances for the next decade. Hydrogen comes second cost wise. I have already done that math and likely other, cost consience, people have done that as well. There is an 80% chance I'll skip BEV and 2 cars from now, I'll be driving around in an FCEV. Charging costs are what is going to limit BEV adoption.

This is abject nonsense,  the annual TCO of my leaf Bev including a combination of home and fast chargers is WAY less than  the equivalent ICE car. This is especially true where significant  mileage is being clocked up.

This is only getting worse recently as fuel recently rocketed and carbon taxes are being introduced , in additional annual car tax is way higher for the same sized ICE. Not to mention residuals have hejd  up better on the BEV . Annual serving costs of the BEV are negligible compared to the ICE.

The BEV costs a fraction to run annually compared to a similar ICE.  We tracked our running costs with our daily commute our Bev paid for itself in three years fron the running cost savings alone. Hence we had a nice modern new car essentially pay for itself in running cost savings over running a second hand ice.

Our experience  is mirrored by many BEV owners

[tautech]

Fast chargers are currently  similar pricing to  domestic day rates and hence cost per mile is way way lower then current petrol costs.

Stop making statements without qualifying them as they don't apply everywhere !
That's just plain garbage as here in NZ fast charging station rates are much dearer than standard stations.
While we all know you are blindly pushing the EV agenda your experiences are NOT universal.

Add in lower annual tax Costs, cheaper fuel , cheaper insurance , very low service costs etc. the annual TCO of the BEV is way lower  then  the equivalent ICE car.

Where do you dream up such BS as a BEV car cannot in anyway be considered an equivalent to an ICE car.   

[nctnico]

What kind of ICE are you talking about here? A Rolls Royce?

A Range Rover perhaps?

No. I'm writing about a bog standard Ford Focus. But I drove it for about 260k km -so far-. At around 8.2 liters per 100km and average fuel price of 1.6 euro, it quietly adds up to quite a large amount.

@Tom66: you should have bought a Prius... Your Golf GTE is an outright money pit! 1200 pounds for a timing belt? Is it made out of gold and unicorn hair or so? I pay 450 euro for the changing the beld on my Ford Focus including the water pump. And that is not even at the cheapest garage I can find. Next car I'm looking at is a Toyota Auris and I expect the servicing costs to be lower compared to the Ford Focus because it has a timing chain.

@Madscientist: if you drive a car for 260k km without changing the shock absorbers, you are a lunatic. Your car will wobble allover the place when you need make an evasive manouvre and thus kill you in the process. Or try braking really hard. Shock absorbers are fundamental in giving the tires traction; they are typically worn after 120k km to 150k km. Ofcourse you are always driving safely, it is just that others won't and thus you can still end up with needing your suspension in excellent condition. I certainly make sure my car's suspension & tires are in perfect condition. I value the life of my loved ones and my own above anything else.

[tggzzz]

Where do you dream up such BS as a BEV car cannot in anyway be considered an equivalent to an ICE car.   

As propagandists know well, if you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth (and the truth becomes MSM alt-truth).

Fanbois are propagandists' useful fools.

[MadScientist]

What kind of ICE are you talking about here? A Rolls Royce?

A Range Rover perhaps?

I guess the fuel costs do add up. But have you taken into account the cost of a new battery into your math? Or did you somehow magically lose that somewhere?

Why would I want a new battery after 6 years and 250,000km my leaf battteth is only down  two bars and the car reliably lies 130km on a single full charge

[MadScientist]

Fast chargers are currently  similar pricing to  domestic day rates and hence cost per mile is way way lower then current petrol costs.

Stop making statements without qualifying them as they don't apply everywhere !
That's just plain garbage as here in NZ fast charging station rates are much dearer than standard stations.
While we all know you are blindly pushing the EV agenda your experiences are NOT universal.

Add in lower annual tax Costs, cheaper fuel , cheaper insurance , very low service costs etc. the annual TCO of the BEV is way lower  then  the equivalent ICE car.

Where do you dream up such BS as a BEV car cannot in anyway be considered an equivalent to an ICE car.   

I make no allowances for retrograde countries that penalise BEV usage. Our political agenda back by voters is to decarbonise private transport as quickly as practical. To that end taxation policy and gov owned fast charging network has implemented incentives to encourage Bev adoption, those incentives are clearly working

Fast charging pricing is similar to normal day rate electricity rates. Day rate electricity is not particularly cheap either. Recently a number of private companies have entered the fast charger marketplace pricing competition is evident.

Then you add in cheaper annual car tax , cheaper car insurance , access to certain free car parking , etc. the net result is a BEV is much cheaper to run

I’m sorry if your democracy isn’t coping  our experience tracking our Bev costs and comparing it to our previous ICE car ( small fiat) was thd bev was 1/3 of the running costs of the ICE and that cash benefit could be seen clearly in our bank account

I fully acknowledge current BEVs have drawbacks but the nonsense ( shock absorbers etc) been spouted here by last gasp ICE adherents is ridiculous and uniformed

[tautech]

Fast chargers are currently  similar pricing to  domestic day rates and hence cost per mile is way way lower then current petrol costs.

Stop making statements without qualifying them as they don't apply everywhere !
That's just plain garbage as here in NZ fast charging station rates are much dearer than standard stations.
While we all know you are blindly pushing the EV agenda your experiences are NOT universal.

Add in lower annual tax Costs, cheaper fuel , cheaper insurance , very low service costs etc. the annual TCO of the BEV is way lower  then  the equivalent ICE car.

Where do you dream up such BS as a BEV car cannot in anyway be considered an equivalent to an ICE car.   

I make no allowances for retrograde countries that penalise BEV usage. Our political agenda back by voters is to decarbonise private transport as quickly as practical. To that end taxation policy and gov owned fast charging network has implemented incentives to encourage Bev adoption, those incentives are clearly working

Fast charging pricing is similar to normal day rate electricity rates. Day rate electricity is not particularly cheap either. Recently a number of private companies have entered the fast charger marketplace pricing competition is evident.

Then you add in cheaper annual car tax , cheaper car insurance , access to certain free car parking , etc. the net result is a BEV is much cheaper to run

I’m sorry if your democracy isn’t coping  our experience tracking our Bev costs and comparing it to our previous ICE car ( small fiat) was thd bev was 1/3 of the running costs of the ICE and that cash benefit could be seen clearly in our bank account

I fully acknowledge current BEVs have drawbacks but the nonsense ( shock absorbers etc) been spouted here by last gasp ICE adherents is ridiculous and uniformed

You are from another planet if you have no idea of what our Gubbermint has done in the effort to have us swallow all this EV BS.
I've already reported in this thread how all the really useful vehicles sold here are taxed to subsidise EV purchases well before the nationwide charging infrastructure is even fit for purpose. To further subsidize the EV bludgers I've also reported here they contribute zero/zip/zilch to maintaining the roading infrastructure and to top it all off large numbers of the population having had all this inconvenience foisted upon them by some so far removed from reality and only fit to shine the seat of a chair will be evicted from NZ halls of power in a few months with a landslide defeat due to their policies being so unpopular.

Should further efforts to get ICE cars from these roads be foisted upon the population many without means to upgrade to more efficient cars will become unemployed as our public transport is so bad. It could even bring about public revolt from some sectors of society.

With rose tinted glasses and idealistic vision from a high altitude this all seems easy and straightforward but the truth at ground level is very very different.

[nctnico]

I fully acknowledge current BEVs have drawbacks but the nonsense ( shock absorbers etc) been spouted here by last gasp ICE adherents is ridiculous and uniformed

Yeeezzz... your BEV doesn't have shock absorbers then?? How about wheels then? Does your Leaf even have wheels? I mean, there are wheels on ICE cars so BEVs in their superiority don't have wheels but likely sit on rubber donuts.

You are so wound up that you don't even recognise potentially life saving advice even if it hits you full on in the face 

[tggzzz]

What kind of ICE are you talking about here? A Rolls Royce?

A Range Rover perhaps?

I guess the fuel costs do add up. But have you taken into account the cost of a new battery into your math? Or did you somehow magically lose that somewhere?

Why would I want a new battery after 6 years and 250,000km my leaf battteth is only down  two bars and the car reliably lies 130km on a single full charge

That's a revealing statement, arguably contradicting the "scientist" and accentuating the "mad" parts of your moniker.

Surely losing 2/3 of capacity is cause for replacement

[Monkeh]

What kind of ICE are you talking about here? A Rolls Royce?

A Range Rover perhaps?

I guess the fuel costs do add up. But have you taken into account the cost of a new battery into your math? Or did you somehow magically lose that somewhere?

Why would I want a new battery after 6 years and 250,000km my leaf battteth is only down  two bars and the car reliably lies 130km on a single full charge

That's a revealing statement, arguably contradicting the "scientist" and accentuating the "mad" parts of your moniker.

Surely losing 2/3 of capacity is cause for replacement

Two thirds? It's a 30kWh first-gen Leaf. 120km is 75% of the marketing range of that vehicle.

This post brought to you by 18.3 seconds of fact checking.

[Marco]

Assuming society holds together and the state pushes the issue here are the solutions for long range driving :

- Expensive synth fuel kept around for legacy users, using this for day to day driving would be seriously expensive.
- Hydrogen mainly intended for trucking, but with gigafactories spitting out fuel cells for the trucking industry and massively bringing down costs, someone is likely going to make a range extender out of it.
- Hyperfast chargers. In 15 years chemistry and charging connectors will likely allow an order of magnitude increase in charging speed, might need coolant connectors on the charging port at that point though.

[tautech]

- Hydrogen mainly intended for trucking, but with gigafactories spitting out fuel cells for the trucking industry and massively bringing down costs, someone is likely going to make a range extender out of it.

Or as is more likely, preexisting ICE technology converted to run on hydrogen:
https://www.cummins.com/news/releases/2022/05/09/cummins-inc-debuts-15-liter-hydrogen-engine-act-expo

[Marco]

For a range extender an hydrogen ICE makes no sense. For day to day running costs a hydrogen ICE will likely be too expensive, same as using synthetic hydrocarbons.

Hydrogen prices would have to become ridiculously low for hydrogen ICE to make much sense.

[eti]

Camping trailers OTOH do provide substantially more fruits than a tent as they are equipped with a stove, fridge, sink etc that provide some self sufficiency to allow more than just a night or two to explore a new region

sounds more like glamping.

I detest all these “cool titles” people use to try and make mundane stuff sound appealing. If you are “glamping” you’re not camping at all - you’re caravanning. I’d rather go to the Isle of Wight and stay in a static home, or just get a simple tent and camp properly. All this extra BS misses the point of the simple pleasure of basic camping.

[eti]

Fast chargers are currently  similar pricing to  domestic day rates and hence cost per mile is way way lower then current petrol costs.

Stop making statements without qualifying them as they don't apply everywhere !
That's just plain garbage as here in NZ fast charging station rates are much dearer than standard stations.
While we all know you are blindly pushing the EV agenda your experiences are NOT universal.

Add in lower annual tax Costs, cheaper fuel , cheaper insurance , very low service costs etc. the annual TCO of the BEV is way lower  then  the equivalent ICE car.

Where do you dream up such BS as a BEV car cannot in anyway be considered an equivalent to an ICE car.   

I make no allowances for retrograde countries that penalise BEV usage. Our political agenda back by voters is to decarbonise private transport as quickly as practical. To that end taxation policy and gov owned fast charging network has implemented incentives to encourage Bev adoption, those incentives are clearly working

Fast charging pricing is similar to normal day rate electricity rates. Day rate electricity is not particularly cheap either. Recently a number of private companies have entered the fast charger marketplace pricing competition is evident.

Then you add in cheaper annual car tax , cheaper car insurance , access to certain free car parking , etc. the net result is a BEV is much cheaper to run

I’m sorry if your democracy isn’t coping  our experience tracking our Bev costs and comparing it to our previous ICE car ( small fiat) was thd bev was 1/3 of the running costs of the ICE and that cash benefit could be seen clearly in our bank account

I fully acknowledge current BEVs have drawbacks but the nonsense ( shock absorbers etc) been spouted here by last gasp ICE adherents is ridiculous and uniformed

“ last gasp ICE adherents”?

You’re not in a world where EVs are  the majority; they’re a middle class tinker toy, one which is being foisted on people to further this crock “green” agenda.  Don’t fall off your high horse.

[Miyuki]

Currently, the efficiency of hydrogen ICE vs FC is very close in steady load ie trucking, and other long range travel.
it is like ~40% vs ~50%
With ICE you still get things like NOx and other minor pollutants from the burning process
But the operating costs can be interesting

[AVGresponding]

What kind of ICE are you talking about here? A Rolls Royce?

A Range Rover perhaps?

I guess the fuel costs do add up. But have you taken into account the cost of a new battery into your math? Or did you somehow magically lose that somewhere?

Why would I want a new battery after 6 years and 250,000km my leaf battteth is only down  two bars and the car reliably lies 130km on a single full charge

That's a revealing statement, arguably contradicting the "scientist" and accentuating the "mad" parts of your moniker.

Surely losing 2/3 of capacity is cause for replacement

Two thirds? It's a 30kWh first-gen Leaf. 120km is 75% of the marketing range of that vehicle.

This post brought to you by 18.3 seconds of fact checking.

Claims are not facts until they are backed with evidence. Also, unless we are told which highly advanced and superior democracy they live in, how can we fact check any of their claims around infrastructure and costs?

[MadScientist]

What kind of ICE are you talking about here? A Rolls Royce?

A Range Rover perhaps?

I guess the fuel costs do add up. But have you taken into account the cost of a new battery into your math? Or did you somehow magically lose that somewhere?

Why would I want a new battery after 6 years and 250,000km my leaf battteth is only down  two bars and the car reliably lies 130km on a single full charge

That's a revealing statement, arguably contradicting the "scientist" and accentuating the "mad" parts of your moniker.

Surely losing 2/3 of capacity is cause for replacement

Two thirds? It's a 30kWh first-gen Leaf. 120km is 75% of the marketing range of that vehicle.

This post brought to you by 18.3 seconds of fact checking.

Claims are not facts until they are backed with evidence. Also, unless we are told which highly advanced and superior democracy they live in, how can we fact check any of their claims around infrastructure and costs?
[/quote

Yes the range is down to approx 75% of peak. As I said about 120km. Still very usable

[MadScientist]

Fast chargers are currently  similar pricing to  domestic day rates and hence cost per mile is way way lower then current petrol costs.

Stop making statements without qualifying them as they don't apply everywhere !
That's just plain garbage as here in NZ fast charging station rates are much dearer than standard stations.
While we all know you are blindly pushing the EV agenda your experiences are NOT universal.

Add in lower annual tax Costs, cheaper fuel , cheaper insurance , very low service costs etc. the annual TCO of the BEV is way lower  then  the equivalent ICE car.

Where do you dream up such BS as a BEV car cannot in anyway be considered an equivalent to an ICE car.   

I make no allowances for retrograde countries that penalise BEV usage. Our political agenda back by voters is to decarbonise private transport as quickly as practical. To that end taxation policy and gov owned fast charging network has implemented incentives to encourage Bev adoption, those incentives are clearly working

Fast charging pricing is similar to normal day rate electricity rates. Day rate electricity is not particularly cheap either. Recently a number of private companies have entered the fast charger marketplace pricing competition is evident.

Then you add in cheaper annual car tax , cheaper car insurance , access to certain free car parking , etc. the net result is a BEV is much cheaper to run

I’m sorry if your democracy isn’t coping  our experience tracking our Bev costs and comparing it to our previous ICE car ( small fiat) was thd bev was 1/3 of the running costs of the ICE and that cash benefit could be seen clearly in our bank account

I fully acknowledge current BEVs have drawbacks but the nonsense ( shock absorbers etc) been spouted here by last gasp ICE adherents is ridiculous and uniformed

“ last gasp ICE adherents”?

You’re not in a world where EVs are  the majority; they’re a middle class tinker toy, one which is being foisted on people to further this crock “green” agenda.  Don’t fall off your high horse.

What I mean by “ last gasp “ is exactly directed at people like you in saying “ crock green agenda “. Ice cars deliver significant pollution and noise into compact urban areas , BEVs do not. The issue is urban car usage

[tautech]

What I mean by “ last gasp “ is exactly directed at people like you in saying “ crock green agenda “. Ice cars deliver significant pollution and noise into compact urban areas , BEVs do not. The issue is urban car usage

And not the global production footprint ?
Unless the whole picture is factored in it's a crock of shit.

[MadScientist]

What I mean by “ last gasp “ is exactly directed at people like you in saying “ crock green agenda “. Ice cars deliver significant pollution and noise into compact urban areas , BEVs do not. The issue is urban car usage

And not the global production footprint ?
Unless the whole picture is factored in it's a crock of shit.

Making our towns cleaner is a quantifiable win. This is not about achieving every goal at once. It’s about a series of incremental changes as time and technology allows

It’s ridiculous to negate some change simply because we can’t do all of it in one go. The same arguments are used by climate change deniers to prevent change