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EV-based road transportation is not viable

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Marco:

--- Quote from: tggzzz on February 17, 2023, 12:53:13 am ---I'm glad someone acknowledges the physical impracticality of solutions dreamed up by others :)

--- End quote ---

I would go further than impractical, I'd say the simple solutions are politically impossible on a lot of streets. Which for discussion is interesting since to paraphrase Arthur Conan Doyle, when the simple is impossible ... you are left with solutions which are merely improbable.

Within the realm of improbable a lot is still possible, you could have charging cables on a guide cable between lamp post (more likely acceptable than attaching to buildings). You could have inductive/capacitive charging below the cars. You could have highly robust connectors at ground level near the curb at high enough density you can usually find one between cars.

nctnico:

--- Quote from: Marco on February 16, 2023, 11:45:13 pm ---It's not for convenience, it's to be able to put the charging connector on the curb and take up no room.

I'm not saying it's _the_ solution, I'm just saying in high density older European towns every solution to curb side charging has a ton of problems. The simple solution of just putting a charging pole every 6 meters will not work, not because of material cost but simply because it will make the street completely unusable. Every not simple solution is pretty far out there.

--- End quote ---
The problem is even simpler than that: in some cities planning committees won't allow to put that many charging poles in a street anyway.

tautech:

--- Quote from: nctnico on February 17, 2023, 08:08:55 am ---The problem is even simpler than that: in some cities planning committees won't allow to put that many charging poles in a street anyway.

--- End quote ---
Hardly surprising, few have any idea what they are doing let alone anything to do with EV technology let alone it might be just a short-lived fad.

tom66:

--- Quote from: tggzzz on February 17, 2023, 01:14:34 am ---In that case I find it remarkable (but not surprising) that you propose schemes that aren't practical in places that are familiar to you.
--- End quote ---

Nope.  I don't find it remarkable at all, because unlike you, I don't think the present day situation will stand still.  5-6 years ago the street I frequently visited in south London had no EV charging infrastructure.  (Just an ordinary suburban street in S. Norwood.)  Now it has 8 lamppost chargers, two 'normal' 7kW charging units (2 ports each), and there's a 100kW DC charger in the centre of the town. 


--- Quote from: tggzzz on February 17, 2023, 01:14:34 am ---That's a fail right there. If the police and courts don't have the time to fine people that obstruct pavements, then why do think they will have time to fine people that leave trip/grounding hazards across pavements?!
--- End quote ---

They don't fine people that park on the pavement (outside of London) because it is not usually illegal to park on the pavement.   It is one of those weird laws where it's illegal to drive on the pavement (except to access a property via a drive or similar), but not illegal to park on a pavement.

Try doing that in London though, I dare you.  In some areas, you have "no verge parking" signs, e.g. around parts of Bedford near me, and I have seen one or two people issued tickets.


--- Quote from: tggzzz on February 17, 2023, 01:14:34 am ---You incorrectly presume I don't support EVs.
--- End quote ---

You're right, I did incorrectly presume that, because you don't bloody well make your opinion on the matter clear.  I'm happy that you've seen that we will need to electrify transport.


--- Quote from: tggzzz on February 17, 2023, 01:14:34 am ---I also get sick and tired of people finding it acceptable to leave 10% (?25%?, whatever) of people severely disadvantaged. I know "I'm all right Jack" libertarianism is fashionable, but I find it loathesome.
--- End quote ---

When have I said it's okay to leave X% of people behind?  I said, let's solve the easy problems first, the people with driveways and off-road parking.  Almost everyone with a driveway could be driving an EV by next year if they wanted to, if the economics were there.  Then as these users drive the demand for street charging, because, they will want to use it now and then, that will follow pretty quickly and the economic case makes a lot more sense for private companies to install it.  Council budgets are too strapped dealing with social care in this country to be rolling out huge infrastructure projects, at least for the time being, so it will probably have to be private in some sense.  Most of London's street charging infrastructure is private.


--- Quote from: tggzzz on February 17, 2023, 01:14:34 am ---Powering it is less easy, e.g. in West London where the grid infrastructure is already insufficient for building new housing developments. Upgrading that distributed grid infrastructure is a major challenge, very expensive and very disruptive.

--- End quote ---

We may need to upgrade the local grid in some areas, but you keep pointing to the West London example as if it represents a problem that exists everywhere.  And upgrading a local grid isn't anything more than roadworks to change cables, and replacing transformers.  It's work, sure, and power might need to be out for a few hours here and there, but it's not an unworkable disaster like you claim.  The biggest issue is that the work that is needed could take longer than necessary because the current planning schemes create problems for companies installing new lines.  In MacKay's book there's a quote about someone living near where the power to the London Array windfarm came in, complaining about the sight of the cables.  This kind of NIMBYism besets all infrastructure, and it's pervasive in this country. And, National Grid want a new 400kV line from north to south, but they're going to put it in the ocean because then the NIMBYs can't object.  Sigh.

The local DNO around here has been approving EV charging points with at most a week's delay, and a couple of people even have two charging points and solar on their home. So there's clearly not an imminent capacity crunch.   And on the face of it, that's actually reasonably obvious.  If you take that 1-in-7 charging figure I mentioned, you can assume each EV charges an average load of 1kW a night.  Do you think that the local grid can cope with 1kW per home?  Cooking alone in an electric oven is that much... or an electric shower in the morning.  (DNO's hate electric showers, by the way.)

Whatever the matter you think there is with the local grid is, I don't see that being what holds EV's back.  It's definitely the charging infrastructure, the posts and charging units themselves, rather than the power distribution, and yes, it is difficult.

tggzzz:

--- Quote from: Marco on February 17, 2023, 01:36:46 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on February 17, 2023, 12:53:13 am ---I'm glad someone acknowledges the physical impracticality of solutions dreamed up by others :)

--- End quote ---

I would go further than impractical, I'd say the simple solutions are politically impossible on a lot of streets. Which for discussion is interesting since to paraphrase Arthur Conan Doyle, when the simple is impossible ... you are left with solutions which are merely improbable.

--- End quote ---

I loathe that Sherlock saying. Too often it is used along these lines: it isn't a bird, it isn't a plane, it isn't a meteor, (I can't think of anything else), therefore it must be an extraterrestrial spacecraft.


--- Quote ---Within the realm of improbable a lot is still possible, you could have charging cables on a guide cable between lamp post (more likely acceptable than attaching to buildings). You could have inductive/capacitive charging below the cars. You could have highly robust connectors at ground level near the curb at high enough density you can usually find one between cars.

--- End quote ---

I refer you to my previous indication of the serious real life problems I have personally had to deal with regarding trailing cables.

I'm still waiting for you to outline a practical capacitative charger, or give a pointer to a suitable "highly robust connector". As most people here know, when a piece of electronic equipment stops working you, the first two things you check are whether the power is on and correct, and whether the connectors are working.

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