EV-based road transportation is not viable

[eti]

All this talk, none of it changes what the passage of time will show that came to pass. Physics and reality don’t change just because the minority and the green washing have an agenda and technological wet dreams over some sci-fi future bollocks they read in comics as kids. Wake up you dummies.

[MadScientist]

All this talk, none of it changes what the passage of time will show that came to pass. Physics and reality don’t change just because the minority and the green washing have an agenda and technological wet dreams over some sci-fi future bollocks they read in comics as kids. Wake up you dummies.

The current crop of BEVs delivers transport needs for a quite large subsection of car owners that’s the reality in countries that have planned well. Sure certain sectors will have to wait. But when I drive into the capital I can count multiple BEVs on the motorway in

The physics works well as does the charging infrastructure and various incentives it’s the biggest driving car sector currently

As I have 6 years ownership  and 250 ,000km on my Leaf I can speak with practical experience it’s a lot nicer to use and run than my recent. Diesel pickup !!!

[Miyuki]

You will be able to take your old timer out of the garage and go to the pump for some synth fuel, but you will have running costs of a couple multiples. Which is not really a problem for an old timer, since it's just a luxury/hobby. Hell old timer motor bikes will be usable as an every day vehicle even for people who have to be careful with their money, given the negligible fuel consumption.

If it's a diesel you could sneak in some food grade vegetable oil, the tax regime will likely keep that cheap (by forcing the unsustainable/unscaleable biofuel producers off the market).

Yup, even with 10 times the fuel price, it won't be a big deal for classic cars.
But the fuel consumption of motorbikes looks like it has some myths.
When I take a typical 70s 80s bike, it has worse mileage than a modern car.
It still is not that huge deal but far from cheap.
Old bikes easily take 6-8 even 10 l/100km

[MadScientist]

Yeah but can your leaf do this? (and by this I mean make a heap of noise, catch fire, explode and put on a show)


Or this:


Or this:


Or this?:


Play all videos at the same time for maximum effect.

Again how is this relevant. We’re trying to move away from chilish nonsense like that , environmentally damaging , this type of stuff needs banning and drivers penalised

[tszaboo]

For a technical forum there sure are a lot of Luddite’s around here.

Drive a modern BEV. it’s a better car all round then it’s ice counterpart that’s the key to Bev success.

I don't think anyone is questioning here that a BEV is nicer then a ICE car. It is when it has the proper range.
The question is whether or not this is the right way of fixing the global warming problem, whether or not the power grid can handle it, and if we can expand the EV production capacity by 10000% in ~8 years time. And the answer to all these questions is a no.
Other industries are more polluting, and fixing them is cheaper.
The power grid is not clean enough to actually reduce pollution if we switch to EVs, those need to be fixed first. Capacity might be an issue in some places. An EV is terrible when powered by a coal fired plant.
And no, we cannot increase the capacity to 100x the current one. Nor should we. This is the early adapter phase, making the production plants without solid state battery in mind is stupid. The tech is just soo much better and cheaper and safer. It will pretty much make all existing EVs obsolete, and impossible to sell on the second hand market, because nobody wants to have the "explody type" BEV after it comes out. Plus there are existing new plants, making cars that eat 5L instead of 12L and every time someone switches to such a car is a win. Or would you seriously force someone who uses their car 1000 km a year to buy a new EV instead of their 15 year old ICE, planning to use it for another 10 years? How is that for CO2 balance?
So can you please stop projecting your wishes because they are not compatible with reality.

[tom66]

#1
The safety for the occupants only of a Tesla, Complete mayhem if they are pedestrians in the way and the Tesla is barrelling toward them. Or inside of a "lesser" car. Or on a motorcycle.

How is this different to a regular car? Or are you talking about autopilot... because that's fairly unique to Tesla's.    But either way not really relevant to EVs.

#2
Even higher powered electric vehicles in the hands of people who were driving around in older Petrol cars.

Power output won't remain at lower levels, it will continue to go up and up and up well into the performance of 2,000 hp or even 3,000 hp vehicles, on public roads. In the hands of inexperienced everyday drivers.

Not sure about this.  Cars like the Leaf, Zoe, ID.3, e-208 for European EV's, for instance, are all in the 200hp-or-less category.  They are really no faster than mid range petrol cars.  They have slightly better torque but their 0-60 times are comparable.

What's more dangerous than anything, especially in the city, is speed, not acceleration, and even a 0.9L Fiat 500 can be dangerous in that situation.  In fact, if anything, EV's are less dangerous in that their top speed is typically under 100 mph due to their single gear design.  Tesla and the like can go much faster due to having motors that can turn faster, but these are expensive to build.

It costs more to build an EV with a bigger motor - these cars need bigger battery packs, different cells, thicker current collectors and the inverters, motors and gearbox components need to be uprated too.  So manufacturers won't just produce 1000 hp EVs as a standard subcompact car, because the market won't want to pay the extra $20,000 in components that requires.  Also, such power in a small vehicle is useless for anything but drag racing,  you need a good suspension and large tyres to actually use that torque on a track.  Such components imply greater weight and cost, and bigger tyres tend to be less efficient due to higher rolling resistance.

So in short, no, I don't think your little subcompact city car will go up to 1,000 hp, and I suspect for Golf-to-Corolla sized cars the power output will stay around the 200 hp mark, with only 'sport' models offering more than that.  2,000 to 3,000 hp - you do realise the latter figure is >2000kW?  For even an 800V EV (only a few cars are using that architecture now, most are 400V, including Tesla) that is well over 2,500A peak current, just think about the implications for wiring and motor design to accommodate that, no way we will see that any time soon except in the ultra high end performance category where $250k+ price tags look cheap.

#3
Complete ignorance of the pollution problem, that is pushing the pollution onto Coal power plants "out of sight out of mind".

In a time when coal plants are progressively being taken offline and wind and nuclear are beginning to dominate the grid. 

#4
Insane expense of an electric car and a brand new charging network needing to be built.

Well, the cars are definitely more expensive, for now.  As for the charging network a lot of it is built up already, it needs to be scaled for demand so instead of 2 spaces we need 16+.  That will cost a bit too.  The alternative is building more hydrogen filling stations which cost even more.

#5
The added pollution from making all of these new electric cars when people will most likely crush their older ICE vehicles instead of running them on the roads for longer. Where are those ICE vehicles going? Oh right, landfill, creating even more pollution.

No, this has been debunked a number of times.  In general, an EV is expected to be net-beneficial on emissions by around the 2nd or 3rd year of ownership. Also, ICE should be phased out slowly, with the vehicles just not being built past a certain date and allowed to die a 'natural death'.  It may be necessary to accelerate this process if emissions targets aren't reached in time but it's not clear yet if that will be necessary.

#6
The slave labour of Lithium mining hasn't been addressed, only ignored.

The majority of lithium for electric vehicle battery packs comes from Australia, Chile and Argentina, countries which do not use slave labour.

#7
The danger of a battery pack catching fire to top it off.

Sure, it's a different risk, but a battery pack is much less likely to burn than an ICE vehicle fire, given they use flammable fuel and oil, have very hot exhaust and engine components and require good maintenance to prevent these components from causing fire (e.g. oil leaks onto exhaust parts.)

[Watth]

All this talk, none of it changes what the passage of time will show that came to pass. Physics and reality don’t change just because the minority and the green washing have an agenda and technological wet dreams over some sci-fi future bollocks they read in comics as kids. Wake up you dummies.

Are we on a Facebook boomer group?
This kind of message doesn't really invite to civil conversation.

[themadhippy]

whether or not the power grid can handle it,

Doubtful in the uk considering were already being threatened with blackouts ,and thats 2 years before new builds stop getting a gas supply,no point for developers paying  for a gas supply when all it can be used for is cooking.Has the uk invested in additional infrastructer to deal with that demand? And in the 5 years after that  is anything being done to deal with the extra demand expected from 2030? o yea hinkley c ,due to come online in 2025 2028 2030 2036,lets hope until then every day is windy and sunny.

[MadScientist]

When you seriously it look at grid capacity theta is no issue supporting increasing BEV populations , thd grid will need expanding but that’s happening anyway equally PV production is also taking a share too , the grid issue is eminently fixable and some of it has been classic poor investment and limited thinking

BEVs are not all coming at once

The power generation grid is also itself changing to greener production and its easier to change this then support ice cars. In fact here it’s data centres that are challenging the grid not BEVs.


That’s simply no future in ice  cars it’s poisoning our cities  and the damage processing hydrocarbons is huge

Most BEVs are not teslas and won’t be. Most BEVs will be low power runaround’s. Typically like the ice car mix  today isn’t all porches either  here the small Bev reigns suptemr just like the taxation system makes owning big Ice  very expensive. When you’re paying €3000in annual road tax and a fortune in “ benefit in kind” on company cars you tend to avoid high end vehicles.

Hence it not all Tesla’s the future Bev is likely to be small compact and cheap to run serving urban dwellers or people with low daily commutes ( < 50km) etc. thd evidence is parking charges , comjestion charges etc are combining younger generations to avoid buying cars at all.

Also governments are in tandem improving public transport investing in light rail etc. so it’s a multi pronged approach allied with changes in urban planning moving away from settlements that demand car access.

This isnt a single solution. But what’s clear is ice As a means of powering personal transport is on its way out and frankly it’s time we abandoned that 19th century bag of bolts that is the ice , electric motors are better traction engines anyway. 

[tggzzz]

All this talk, none of it changes what the passage of time will show that came to pass. Physics and reality don’t change just because the minority and the green washing have an agenda and technological wet dreams over some sci-fi future bollocks they read in comics as kids. Wake up you dummies.

The current crop of BEVs delivers transport needs for a quite large subsection of car owners that’s the reality in countries that have planned well. Sure certain sectors will have to wait. But when I drive into the capital I can count multiple BEVs on the motorway in

So far the low-hanging <5% of fruit has been picked. The last 40% will be much more difficult.

The physics works well as does the charging infrastructure and various incentives it’s the biggest driving car sector currently

From that we can infer you don't live in West London where new housing developments are on hold due to the insufficient electricty infrastructure.

Your comment suggests you might live somewhere like
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8985412,-0.0282761,3a,75y,104.17h,83.66t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1sjliSnimn1zE2RFfzG_Wbsg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i42
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5722587,-0.175047,3a,75y,290.94h,82.37t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1sCRVzP0KHuT4DU2ziD3GDJA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i42

We can also infer you don't live in desirable middle class places like
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3863906,-2.366496,3a,75y,122.01h,90.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sceh1CxJgNP3k2_czZUfp2w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.201124,0.1345726,3a,75y,302.94h,88.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9Fb-TCa2E4uMDMIGUamFNA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

nor less desirable places like
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4401703,-2.6039083,3a,75y,3.41h,81.14t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1sr-TU_EJ0nRGzhSgdnI5tXw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i42

Hint: a very large number of dwellings don't have assigned parking, so - even where they can afford it - individual's simply cannot install chargers. In some cases they have tried workarounds, were defeated, and were forced to sell their BEV.

[themadhippy]

Also governments are in tandem improving public transport investing in light rail etc.

yea thats why there was a report on the uk's national news the other day about the threat  of  cutbacks in government funding for public transport,and how  large areas of the population already have no access to it

[Simon]

I’m just sitting here, laughing at how supposedly intelligent people are so gullible

Or entrenched viewpoints held by the ill-informed    Who seem to read largely conspiracy websites nonsense

How is facing up the hard realities which the early adopters avoid at all costs or “forget” to mention, any form of “conspiracy”?

You loonies.

I had an electric car on a monthly subscription, I could have ditched at any time. I only did when I got fed up with the company supplying the cars. I am now getting a car through work, I have had to go back to petrol for what is hopefully only until May, I can't wait to get back into an electric car again.

What are these things that "we" EV drivers won't talk about?

[MadScientist]

Also governments are in tandem improving public transport investing in light rail etc.

yea thats why there was a report on the uk's national news the other day about the threat  of  cutbacks in government funding for public transport,and how  large areas of the population already have no access to it

The evidence is that roadside fast chargers will be the preferred charging of BEVs as power ratings climb not house based charging  hehce this argument about lack of driveway precludes  BEVs flrrs in face of what home  charging studies have shown. Planners see home charging as merely one constitute of the total charging solution. Not the “ only” way to charge BEVs

[rstofer]

Also governments are in tandem improving public transport investing in light rail etc.

yea thats why there was a report on the uk's national news the other day about the threat  of  cutbacks in government funding for public transport,and how  large areas of the population already have no access to it

There are fundamental reasons why public transport isn't viable and the most notable is population density and proximity to working locations.

In some areas, big cities are 'vertical' meaning high rise office buildings, high rise apartments/condominiums and little open space.  It's pretty easy to serve these with mass transit because a single stop might serve 10,000 jobs and an equivalent number of living units.

Horizontal areas, like most of California, are not well served by mass transit because there would be far too many stops spread over miles of destinations.

So, how to solve the horizontal problem?  Simple, build parking lots so people can drive to and from the station.  But what do they do at the other end?  Have two cars?  I lived 60 miles from downtown Silicon Gulch and the closest mass transit came to my company was about a mile away and uphill in both directions.  Do they really think I'm going to walk a mile in the rain (if it rains) to get to work?  The nearest pickup point was about half way so I still had a 60 mile round trip commute.  But I could afford a house if I lived far enough away!  Hence the 'horizontal'...

I knew one guy who flew to work in his own plane, every single day!  He really lived a ways off.  Of course, he got a lot of flying hours which is probably better than sitting in traffic.

Somebody had the idea that all the people in Los Angeles wanted to visit Sacramento and San Francisco - what for was never discussed.  Hence the on-again, off-again High Speed Rail which is expected to cost $105 billion.  The cost per passenger mile will be staggering.  Uber would probably be cheaper.

We're going to be driving cars for a good long while.

[Simon]

Also governments are in tandem improving public transport investing in light rail etc.

yea thats why there was a report on the uk's national news the other day about the threat  of  cutbacks in government funding for public transport,and how  large areas of the population already have no access to it

The evidence is that roadside fast chargers will be the preferred charging of BEVs as power ratings climb not house based charging  hehce this argument about lack of driveway precludes  BEVs flrrs in face of what home  charging studies have shown. Planners see home charging as merely one constitute of the total charging solution. Not the “ only” way to charge BEVs

Home charging is the way as it happens at night when the grid is less loaded.

[rstofer]

#5
The added pollution from making all of these new electric cars when people will most likely crush their older ICE vehicles instead of running them on the roads for longer. Where are those ICE vehicles going? Oh right, landfill, creating even more pollution.

I call BS on this!  The steel in cars is a valuable source for making more steel.  Schnitzer Steel in Oakland, Calif (among other places) is big on chopping up old cars for feedstock.  It's not a coincidence that they are located on the Oakland Estuary where they can dump the product in big ships for transport to, probably, China.

https://www.schnitzersteel.com/

I had a small sailboat berthed near the plant and they had a sign showing several alligators crunching up cars.  I taught my grandson to count using that sign as we passed by on our sailing trips.

[Simon]

I can confirm that cars do not go into landfill, talk about fucking conspiracies...

[rstofer]

#2
Even higher powered electric vehicles in the hands of people who were driving around in older Petrol cars.

Power output won't remain at lower levels, it will continue to go up and up and up well into the performance of 500-2,000 hp or even 3,000 hp vehicles, on public roads. In the hands of inexperienced everyday drivers.

A decent everyday commuter EV is already reaching 3.5 second 0-60 speeds. That's insane.

Kia EV6 GT (576 hp)
Porsche Taycan  Turbo S (750 hp)
Tesla Model X Plaid (1020 hp)
Lucid Air Dream Edition (1111 hp)
Nio EP9 (1360 hp)

Now imagine how dangerous it is when a manufacturer introduces a high powered BEV at a low price.

I have an idea!  Let's ban low performance drivers and embrace high performance cars.

I lived through the muscle car era and arrived at old age relatively unscathed despite having a 426 Plymouth Satellite and a couple of 440 Magnum Dodge Chargers.  They were scary fast but you just had to get up on the wheel and drive!

Detroit built some very fast cars but they didn't handle worth a damn.  The suspensions were too soft and the front end didn't always go where it was supposed to.  It's one thing when the rear end steps out, no big deal.  But when the front end washes out you're in deep doo-doo.

All those BEV muscle cars are going to be priced to the very well off.  The highest performing Dodge Charger (when they build it) is estimated to cost $115k!  The average run-of-the-mill BEV will probably be like my Chevy Bolt - around 200 HP.  Quick enough for driving in traffic yet not truly scary fast.  The factories know all about this!  The 2015 Chevy Spark EV had 400 ft-lbs of torque.  The next year they toned it down and my Bolt only has 266 ft-lbs.  Plenty for normal driving.

[tggzzz]

Also governments are in tandem improving public transport investing in light rail etc.

yea thats why there was a report on the uk's national news the other day about the threat  of  cutbacks in government funding for public transport,and how  large areas of the population already have no access to it

The evidence is that roadside fast chargers will be the preferred charging of BEVs as power ratings climb not house based charging  hehce this argument about lack of driveway precludes  BEVs flrrs in face of what home  charging studies have shown. Planners see home charging as merely one constitute of the total charging solution. Not the “ only” way to charge BEVs

What evidence is there that people will want to go to a public place and wait while their car is charged?

The only place I would be willing to do that on a regular basis is at home. But then I, unlike many others, have a private driveway.

[MrMobodies]

I can confirm that cars do not go into landfill, talk about fucking conspiracies...

I thought they get crushed and then recycled once stripped.

[Simon]

I can confirm that cars do not go into landfill, talk about fucking conspiracies...

I thought they get crushed and then recycled once stripped.

Yep, at least in the UK, breakers yards will buy your car for £100+, sell any parts they can and then send the car to be crushed,

[Simon]

I can confirm that cars do not go into landfill, talk about fucking conspiracies...

What about the interiors? All that plastic gets recycled does it?

Sure modern cars use recyclable/biodegradable plastic but we're not disposing of newer cars, not yet.

And yes I'm sorry. I made an error in judgement. Steel frames/engine blocks, etc are indeed fully recyclable.

Someone makes an error in judgement, uses the wrong word, suddenly its a conspiracy theory. geez.

Look I'll just fuck off from this thread ok? Its obvious that you guys are gonna want shiney new toys until the whole damn world is full of them. You just can't get enough of this shit.

I don't know what they do with the plastics, however what ever they do will be the same shit show as the rest of so called recycling, the problem is not disposing of cars, but the way we dispose of anything. Indeed I'm sure landfill sites will become the mines of the future, once we have exhausted everything we will be digging landfill sites back up to get it cheaper than digging even deeper into the ground.

[Bud]

I can confirm that cars do not go into landfill, talk about fucking conspiracies...

Me walks into the Toyota dealership to swap my 14 years old car with a  new one I have bought.
Dealer: "Do you know what is going to happen to your old car?"
Me: " It goes to the landfill ?..."
Dealer: " Nope, it goes to the Bahamas, they already paid us for it"

[bdunham7]

Me walks into the Toyota dealership to swap my 14 years old car with a  new one I have bought.
Dealer: "Do you know what is going to happen to your old car?"
Me: " It goes to the landfill ?..."
Dealer: " Nope, it goes to the Bahamas, they already paid us for it"

Often true, except for that pathetic "Cash for Clunkers" shitshow where they deliberately destroyed perfectly good vehicles to juice sales. 

In any case, the recycling process for vehicles is as good or better than that of almost anything else you can think of.  The only thing that routinely runs into trouble are the tires because they have a negative net value and often the people who accept payment to ensure their recycling end up cheating--often by having an accidental fire.

[rstofer]

The only thing that routinely runs into trouble are the tires because they have a negative net value and often the people who accept payment to ensure their recycling end up cheating--often by having an accidental fire.

Here's a local example of a 2 year tire fire and the downstream results:

https://www.ttownmedia.com/tracy_press/archives/tracing-tracy-territory-the-fire-that-keeps-on-burning/article_e2338fb1-2b3a-5879-9cf2-1ceebc922f5d.html

But those 7 million tires didn't come from BEVs - they hadn't been invented in 1998.