EV-based road transportation is not viable

[nctnico]

People switch from cars to alternative transport if cars are expensive. Which is an unfortunate event, shouldn't really be the end goal of any administration, because it only means that they are creating a failed society.

In most developed European countries the goal is to reduce dependance on private car usage. New motorways are now considered bad planning and commuter rail is preferred.

Again: this has been tried to death in the NL already and failed missarably. Nowadays they are catching up on building new and more roads over here. On top of that people may receive a higher allowance for work related car travel. The NL government has given up chasing what is a pipe dream.

The problem is that public transport goes from one hub to another. I have worked at various companies that are located in large industrial areas that had no public transport connection at all. IOW: if your home is close to a train station and your work is close to a train station, public transport works. Otherwise it just doesn't. Making owning a car more expensive doesn't change the situation. It just makes working more expensive for many people. I've seen various good engineers leaving companies due to travel time and costs. A real loss for the company involved but completely understandable.

The fact that it tried and possibly failed in NL is more a specific failure of NL governance than a general statement that such public policy cannot work elsewhere. In other countries better progress towards a less car centric living is making progress and social change is occurring to support that with both planning changes altering the built environment and societal changes to people’s attitudes leading away from a “ car centric. “ solution

In my country offices are now built near public transport hubs. ( seee Google’s European HQ for example ) this is what attracts high quality employees not car parking spaces.

The point you missed is that your country is lagging behind. That phase has already passed in the NL. I also see it with my own customers that where so unfortunate to rent offices in such areas: it is an utter nuisance for suppliers and -more importantly- potential customers to visit the office. And 'good' employees is only limited to youngsters fresh out of school. The experienced senior level work force with homes in suburban areas are not going to take a job in a place they can't reach with a car.

[tggzzz]

By that argument all people with disabilities are "edge cases", and their requirements can be ignored.

We already have provision for disabled people.  Those on blue badges are exempt from paying the congestion charge and can park in many areas of central London, for instance, free of charge.  There's no reason a future system couldn't consider disability/accessibility too.  I know a 65 year old woman in south London who refuses to drive, she hates it, takes the bus and train every day using her walking stick.  Is it a bit of hard work - yes, of course - but just because you are old does not mean you are unable to use public transport.  She actually gets upset when people offer her a seat, funny character.

I didn't realise the blue badge scheme included modifications to vehicles to allow for disabilities. I thought is was just related to where you could and couldn't park a vehicle. Could you please let us know where that is stated.

Thanks for correcting our misapprehensions.

[tggzzz]

Hence th “pregnant housewife”  will have  a range of options even if  it’s s typical  BS edge case argument . Used by people who have no thought out counter argument and resort to picking edge cases out of thin air

By that argument all people with disabilities are "edge cases", and their requirements can be ignored.

We can infer that you are able bodied and young, and probably have not been involved in ensuring an eldely relative can continue to live independently.

Just build a "special area" for disabled people and move them there. They will have all services and surely will live there happily ever after.
And won't sully bright future.
It was already tried many times at various places.

But yes, it can be solved by for example with taxi credit or a similar solution.  Just like they have now incentives for cars and free parking.

Taxis frequently refuse to take people with wheelchairs.

Taxis aren't relevant where vehicles have to be modified.

[MadScientist]

Hence th “pregnant housewife”  will have  a range of options even if  it’s s typical  BS edge case argument . Used by people who have no thought out counter argument and resort to picking edge cases out of thin air

By that argument all people with disabilities are "edge cases", and their requirements can be ignored.

We can infer that you are able bodied and young, and probably have not been involved in ensuring an eldely relative can continue to live independently.

Just build a "special area" for disabled people and move them there. They will have all services and surely will live there happily ever after.
And won't sully bright future.
It was already tried many times at various places.

But yes, it can be solved by for example with taxi credit or a similar solution.  Just like they have now incentives for cars and free parking.

Taxis frequently refuse to take people with wheelchairs.

Taxis aren't relevant where vehicles have to be modified.

Then your law needs changing. Here a certain percentages of issued licences must be wheelchair compatible. Hehce it’s no issue to hail a compatible one.

Your objections are a failure of government not a basic fundamental problem

 New Buses are all wheelchair compatible as are all new buildings including new private homes.

None of these issues are any impediment to a less car dense future or a Bev based private car environment.

Wheelchair and disabled access is now a huge factor in modern design

People are just “ inventing “ edge cases as if it justifies retaining ICE . Nothing justifies retaining ICE. hopefully by about  30 years private ice usage will have ended. Included 2nd hand ice too.  In my view the transistion will be quicker as people see the benefits and change voluntarily.

[tggzzz]

Hence th “pregnant housewife”  will have  a range of options even if  it’s s typical  BS edge case argument . Used by people who have no thought out counter argument and resort to picking edge cases out of thin air

By that argument all people with disabilities are "edge cases", and their requirements can be ignored.

We can infer that you are able bodied and young, and probably have not been involved in ensuring an eldely relative can continue to live independently.

Just build a "special area" for disabled people and move them there. They will have all services and surely will live there happily ever after.
And won't sully bright future.
It was already tried many times at various places.

But yes, it can be solved by for example with taxi credit or a similar solution.  Just like they have now incentives for cars and free parking.

Taxis frequently refuse to take people with wheelchairs.

Taxis aren't relevant where vehicles have to be modified.

Then your law needs changing. Here a certain percentages of issued licences must be wheelchair compatible. Hehce it’s no issue to hail a compatible one.

There's no need to change the laws; it is already a condition of having a licence.

There are also laws about killing people and defrauding people. So that's those problems solved too. Or not.

Your objections are a failure of government not a basic fundamental problem

 New Buses are all wheelchair compatible as are all new buildings including new private homes.

None of these issues are any impediment to a less car dense future or a Bev based private car environment.

Wheelchair and disabled access is now a huge factor in modern design

You need more than busses being compatible. You also need bus stops being compatible, train stations being compatible (e.g. being able to avoid stairs), pavements being compatible.

Sure, new ones are compatible, just as new homes are required to have charging facilities for EVs. So that's those problems solved too. Or not.

All is sweetness and light, for suitable definitions of "sweetness" and "light".

People are just “ inventing “ edge cases as if it justifies retaining ICE . Nothing justifies retaining ICE. hopefully by about  30 years private ice usage will have ended. Included 2nd hand ice too.  In my view the transistion will be quicker as people see the benefits and change voluntarily.

People are just ignoring the real world, and concentrating on an ideal world populated by ideal people. In my view the transition will be quicker when fanbois and shills acknowlege the problems and voluntarily propose workable solutions.

[MadScientist]

The point is none of these “ edge “ arguments changes the timescales and transistion to a BEV future certainly for private motoring initially. Specific sectors may take more time and or newer Bev technology

One thing is certain the day of the 19th century bag of bolts that is an ice car is drawing to a close

[tggzzz]

The point is none of these “ edge “ arguments changes the timescales and transistion to a BEV future certainly for private motoring initially. Specific sectors may take more time and or newer Bev technology

One thing is certain the day of the 19th century bag of bolts that is an ice car is drawing to a close

The transition will take as long as it did to replace horses and dogs[1]: about half a century.

Deal with that. Provide workable paths from here to there, and the world will make you very rich.

[1] From around WW1, possibly France or Belgium

[Marco]

The world is full of bullshitters and idealistic futurists who live in a fantasy world of their imaginations.

Such as your status quo bias.

Putler, Poo and the Ayotollah don't really give a shit about your faith in that nothing can change ... don't believe the propaganda. History is littered with utter irrational actions on a world scale, this time will be no different. You can try to give them a finger because of your faith, then they will try to take your hand and your status quo will still collapse. Without Russia and Iran peak oil would hit like a ton of bricks, a transition to electricity and hydrogen would be forced regardless.

Meanwhile in 30 years the demographics especially in Eastern EU will be so catastrophically bad that much of current society simply can't function as is.

One way or another this is the end of the end of history, things will change, the metastable state we entered into in the 80s is ending.

[MadScientist]

The point is none of these “ edge “ arguments changes the timescales and transistion to a BEV future certainly for private motoring initially. Specific sectors may take more time and or newer Bev technology

One thing is certain the day of the 19th century bag of bolts that is an ice car is drawing to a close

The transition will take as long as it did to replace horses and dogs[1]: about half a century.

Deal with that, and provide workable paths from here to there.

[1] From around WW1, possibly France or Belgium

I think any intelligent commentator will agree that the complete transistion will take 50 years not withstanding that events may change time scales. “ events dear boy events dear boy as a famous PM said “

I do think we underestimate the role technology will play in speeding change , we are only at the start of this effect.

What is clear that the transition is underway even if it’s progresses in fits and starts.

[MadScientist]

The world is full of bullshitters and idealistic futurists who live in a fantasy world of their imaginations.

Such as your status quo bias.

Putler, Poo and the Ayotollah don't really give a shit about your faith in that nothing can change ... don't believe the propaganda. History is littered with utter irrational actions on a world scale, this time will be no different. You can try to give them a finger because of your faith, then they will try to take your hand and your status quo will still collapse. Without Russia and Iran peak oil would hit like a ton of bricks, a transition to electricity and hydrogen would be forced regardless.

Meanwhile in 30 years the demographics especially in Eastern EU will be so catastrophically bad that much of current society simply can't function as is.

One way or another this is the end of the end of history, things will change, the metastable state we entered into in the 80s is ending.

The portents of doom mothering are hypnotic and often comforting. In practice change happens faster then commentators expect.

[nctnico]

The point is none of these “ edge “ arguments changes the timescales and transistion to a BEV future certainly for private motoring initially. Specific sectors may take more time and or newer Bev technology

One thing is certain the day of the 19th century bag of bolts that is an ice car is drawing to a close

The transition will take as long as it did to replace horses and dogs[1]: about half a century.

Deal with that. Provide workable paths from here to there, and the world will make you very rich.

Last summer I was driving through Italy and passed a truck from an Italian trucking company. It showed a horse & carriage with the text 'Since 1959'.

[tggzzz]

The point is none of these “ edge “ arguments changes the timescales and transistion to a BEV future certainly for private motoring initially. Specific sectors may take more time and or newer Bev technology

One thing is certain the day of the 19th century bag of bolts that is an ice car is drawing to a close

The transition will take as long as it did to replace horses and dogs[1]: about half a century.

Deal with that, and provide workable paths from here to there.

[1] From around WW1, possibly France or Belgium

I think any intelligent commentator will agree that the complete transistion will take 50 years not withstanding that events may change time scales. “ events dear boy events dear boy as a famous PM said “

This thread is full of people that ignore the problems - both politicians and fanbois.

As I edited my post shortly before your response above: "Provide workable paths from here to there, and the world will make you very rich"

I do think we underestimate the role technology will play in speeding change , we are only at the start of this effect.

But technology isn't sufficient, although it is necessary.

What is clear that the transition is underway even if it’s progresses in fits and starts.

It has been underway for over a century.

For the first 40 years of my life EVs were visible on every road - but not since the 90s.

There is even a yootoob vid of Edison in an EV.

[themadhippy]

For the first 40 years of my life EVs were visible on every road

But only if you was up early or returning from the pub late.

[MadScientist]

Despite this forum having lots of members, it’s time to put these opinions into perspective:

# You are electronics people, ergo have a higher than average probability of being biased towards electric or electronic systems. Fact.

# You are one miniscule fraction of an already tiny, tiny fraction of a fraction of the populous of the countries planning these schemes. You are likely 0.00000000000000000000000001% of the population of your country, and even if a million of you got together and lobbied all day every day for EVs, that’s still a tiny fraction of your overall population that say they want it.

That doesn’t change the fact that logic, physics, economics and plain old fashioned day to day practicality en mass are not always able to be overcome by the words “Road map”, “eco” or “policy”.

This is an echo chamber. Never forget that. Also never forget that almost no one online will admit to wanting to always be “right”.  I’m in no way saying I’m right nor will be, but good old fashioned (very UN)common sense is a distant memory, and as much as you may have utopian fantasies A La “Buck Rogers”… as much as you, your govt and your EV fanatics want to force your childhood sci-fi fantasies to come to pass, nothing stops logic in the end. Logic is the overruling power of sanity.

The world is full of bullshitters and idealistic futurists who live in a fantasy world of their imaginations. It ain’t gonna happen. Watch and see - and no need to reply to “prove you wrong” - one who is secure in the absolute knowledge that the sun will rise and set, has no need to “prove it” to people - it’s a given. EVs, sadly for you, are very much NOT a given - as much as you desperately want them to be. They are exist in minority quantities, they’re toys, and that’s the end of it.

The fact is the transistion to BEV is well underway. Yes it will take time to convert all private cars but the fact is the  car industry has decided Bev is the future. This is backed by government who are in agreement in many countries.


There are always  ”naysayers” like you , that largely for personal vested interests simply refuse to acknowledge the pace of change. People like you missed the computer revolution, the internet and mobile comms. Etc.

The pace of change is accelerating driven by the desire to decarbonise many day to day activities. Such policies have broad support by younger voters etc. these voters are the future electorate.

Bev are better cars than ice. Quieter   More powerful and much less pollution at the point of usage which is the major issue in urban car usage.

The zenith of the personal car is over increasingly planners are de-prioritising car usage in favour of other modes. Millions are being invested in alternative transport solutions


There are always people like you that argue against change , they were there when railways displaced canals , when flight displaced railways.

There are always people arguing the status who will prevail. History shows is that this is NOT what happens once sufficient momentum builds. In fact the pace of change can surprise “ conservative “ commentators.

Sure it’s a natural human emotion not to embrace change but it’s a foolish one as change occurs anyway

The European car industry is largely comfortable BEVs are its future and all major suppliers are gearing up model lines. In fact most anti BEV commentators have never driven or owned a BEv and largely “ invent “ reasons why they are not suitable. The reality is they are increasingly suitable and more and more as each new model year rolls by. The Bev today is far superior to my old Leaf for example

The private car industry has a workable alternative and has decided to put its “ eggs” in that basket , this is true whether you like it or not. You can’t buy a car that isn’t made.

[themadhippy]

Bev are better cars than ice. Quieter

They maybe should  consider  a minimum noise level,especially for those with sight problems

[tggzzz]

Bev are better cars than ice. Quieter

They maybe should  consider  a minimum noise level,especially for those with sight problems

Or hearing problems.
Or reading mobile phone "problems".
Or blocked (with earbuds) problems.

[MadScientist]

When railways were introduced one person commented that they would be a failure as the human body was not designed to be transported at speeds in excess of a running horse !!

There are always those resistant to change and argue against it, even in the face of such change happening in front of them.

Decarbonisation is a societal goal amongst increasing proportions of the electorate especially the young. Such pressure will force change and progress

[themadhippy]

Or hearing problems.

shouldn't affect them as they  see the silent approach

Or reading mobile phone "problems".
Or blocked (with earbuds) problems.

no cure for stupidity.

[bdunham7]

There are always  ”naysayers” like you , that largely for personal vested interests simply refuse to acknowledge the pace of change. People like you missed the computer revolution, the internet and mobile comms. 

It is both irritating and amusing to be dismissed as a luddite or a 'naysayer' simply for being observant and reasonable.  Here are some examples of my observations about the 'pace of change'.

Mobile comms:  ~25 years ago the phone company botched the transfer of my business phone lines, leaving my small service business without a phone line.  I quickly ported the business lines to a Motorola bag phone and my personal StarTac handheld.  Cell phone service was still rather new and pricey.  This kept everything going for week until the phone company could do their work.  This showed me for the first time that landlines could eventually go away entirely.  And over the next few decades, cell service became cheaper and coverage became wider.  Today, I live in a well-populated and estabished suburban area but for technical reason, my home has very poor cell service.  My choices to mitigate this are 1) a repeater 2) landlines or 3) fiber data plus a small device that acts as a small cell tower.  I have the third, plus the first (1G/3G) for guests.  Many of my neighbors still have landlines.  So landlines are still here 25 years later.

Internet and computers:  I've had 'internet' since before the WWW.  I've used computers since the 70's.  The post office still delivers mail to my house every day except Sunday.  Gee, that didn't go away or even abate, did it?

Once things are well established in the marketplace, they will only change if there is good reason for them to.  That's why our electrical plugs are more or less compatible with stuff from 100 years ago.  I still listen to FM radio in my cars.  Although I have modern streaming via a self-made HTPC, I still have working OTA television and many, many people here do as well, in large part due to smaller ethnic-specific channels in SoCal. 

Sometimes technologies come along that are 'better', but they aren't better enough to stick around and they fade out while both their predecessors and successors live on.  Blu-ray and HD Radio (the US Ibiquity boondoggle) are both dying out, for example, even though HBO and regular FM are still going.  I've been driving an EV for nearly a decade, yet I still wonder if they are the future or will go the way of the Blu-Ray.  I know of early-adopter EV owners that have gone back to ICE.  A friend recently purchased a new BMW SUV, all ICE, at a cost similar to a Model Y or XC40 EV.   Predictions of a quick and certain demise for the ICE seem to be rather silly to me.

[MadScientist]

Predictions of a quick and certain demise for the ICE seem to be rather silly to me.

Quick maybe not , certain , well  the writing is on the wall from manufactures preference , regulation, tax’s  public policy , consumer preferences. Etc. the Bev is only starting is technological introduction.  Ice is largely near its end.

Note surveys show most Bev owners do not return to ice , in fact they typically trade up to more sophisticated  BEV models if they can afford to.

The fact remains the regulatory environment to own an ice will get increasingly difficult and expensive. That alone will convince many to change

[tom66]

I didn't realise the blue badge scheme included modifications to vehicles to allow for disabilities. I thought is was just related to where you could and couldn't park a vehicle. Could you please let us know where that is stated.

Thanks for correcting our misapprehensions.

I don't even know what point you're arguing for now.  But you can, if you're on a low income, get modifications done to your private vehicle at the taxpayer's expense.  This would be covered under PIP, DLA or Motability (which covers leasing an adapted vehicle) if you're eligible for those kinds of things.

As for taxis, it is definitely illegal for a Hackney cab to refuse a fare from a disabled person, and it is *usually* illegal for minicabs to do the same (though they can 'reasonably refuse' if they couldn't fit the wheelchair in the car, for instance).  It is also not allowed to refuse assistance dogs and the like without a medical certificate of allergy.   But these vehicles are driven by people, and people are free agents who can break the law.  None of that has anything to do with maintaining private vehicle access to city centres, the vast, vast majority of which are driven by perfectly able bodied people.  But sure, you can include provisions for people with blue badges and the like to access these areas, this is actually commonly employed, along with access for loading/unloading goods or special events.

[Monkeh]

When railways were introduced one person commented that they would be a failure as the human body was not designed to be transported at speeds in excess of a running horse !!

In the age that that was written there was no seatbelts nor any safety equipment to speak of so technically its true for the technical time period in which it was said.

When was the last time you wore a seatbelt on a train? It wasn't true then and it isn't now, it was nothing but ignorant fear.

[tom66]

When was the last time you wore a seatbelt on a train? It wasn't true then and it isn't now, it was nothing but ignorant fear.

Train fatalities per billion km: 2.1 (UK)
Passenger car fatalities per billion km: 3.8 (UK, 2010)

It's surprisingly close. But it's arguable the typical type of collision in a train wouldn't benefit from a seatbelt, as derailment isn't exactly something you survive if only you had a 3 point belt.

[Monkeh]

When was the last time you wore a seatbelt on a train? It wasn't true then and it isn't now, it was nothing but ignorant fear.

Train fatalities per billion km: 2.1 (UK)
Passenger car fatalities per billion km: 3.8 (UK, 2010)

It's surprisingly close. But it's arguable the typical type of collision in a train wouldn't benefit from a seatbelt, as derailment isn't exactly something you survive if only you had a 3 point belt.

Pretty sad number for trains, really, on the flip side, those trains are carrying several hundred people, not one. I think seatbelts would probably help quite a lot though.

Doesn't change the speed having nothing to do with matters - humans don't die because you accelerate gently to 40mph.

[tggzzz]

I didn't realise the blue badge scheme included modifications to vehicles to allow for disabilities. I thought is was just related to where you could and couldn't park a vehicle. Could you please let us know where that is stated.

Thanks for correcting our misapprehensions.

I don't even know what point you're arguing for now. 

My response was to your statements - which you chose to snip. Do read, don't snip; that makes life easier for everybody.

But you can, if you're on a low income, get modifications done to your private vehicle at the taxpayer's expense.  This would be covered under PIP, DLA or Motability (which covers leasing an adapted vehicle) if you're eligible for those kinds of things.

So you are saying "those that don't have to pay get it for free". Well, duh; who would have think that.

What about those that do have to pay? I suppose it is acceptable that they are screwed again.

What which EVs can be modified for the disabilities - and which can't?

As for taxis, it is definitely illegal for a Hackney cab to refuse a fare from a disabled person, and it is *usually* illegal for minicabs to do the same (though they can 'reasonably refuse' if they couldn't fit the wheelchair in the car, for instance).  It is also not allowed to refuse assistance dogs and the like without a medical certificate of allergy.   But these vehicles are driven by people, and people are free agents who can break the law.  None of that has anything to do with maintaining private vehicle access to city centres, the vast, vast majority of which are driven by perfectly able bodied people. 

And screw the minority. Twas ever thus.