EV-based road transportation is not viable

[tom66]

@Tom66: you should have bought a Prius... Your Golf GTE is an outright money pit! 1200 pounds for a timing belt? Is it made out of gold and unicorn hair or so? I pay 450 euro for the changing the beld on my Ford Focus including the water pump. And that is not even at the cheapest garage I can find. Next car I'm looking at is a Toyota Auris and I expect the servicing costs to be lower compared to the Ford Focus because it has a timing chain.

It is a hybrid with ~200 hp with a very compact engine bay.  It's an 8 hour job apparently.  Your options for comparable vehicles (at least at the time I bought it) were the Golf GTE, BMW 330e or Lexus 300h.  And the GTE and BMW could be plugged in, so the GTE won because it was a hatchback.  I did consider the BMW i3 REx with the 90Ah battery but heard too many stories of the REx dying on these cars putting the whole EV system into limp mode.  It's also quite a weird car and only BMW will touch it. 

[tautech]

What I mean by “ last gasp “ is exactly directed at people like you in saying “ crock green agenda “. Ice cars deliver significant pollution and noise into compact urban areas , BEVs do not. The issue is urban car usage

And not the global production footprint ?
Unless the whole picture is factored in it's a crock of shit.

Making our towns cleaner is a quantifiable win. This is not about achieving every goal at once. It’s about a series of incremental changes as time and technology allows

So no matter how much lithium mining might pollute some other country as long as we're making a difference at home ?
FFS and you were involved in working groups on EV's and have no conscience how their manufacture might impact other parts of the world ?
What about the possible pollution of that regions food production capability ?
No matter if they export it and have someone else eat it ?

How can you sleep at night ? 

[nctnico]

@Tom66: you should have bought a Prius... Your Golf GTE is an outright money pit! 1200 pounds for a timing belt? Is it made out of gold and unicorn hair or so? I pay 450 euro for the changing the beld on my Ford Focus including the water pump. And that is not even at the cheapest garage I can find. Next car I'm looking at is a Toyota Auris and I expect the servicing costs to be lower compared to the Ford Focus because it has a timing chain.

It is a hybrid with ~200 hp with a very compact engine bay.  It's an 8 hour job apparently.  Your options for comparable vehicles (at least at the time I bought it) were the Golf GTE, BMW 330e or Lexus 300h.  And the GTE and BMW could be plugged in, so the GTE won because it was a hatchback.  I did consider the BMW i3 REx with the 90Ah battery but heard too many stories of the REx dying on these cars putting the whole EV system into limp mode.  It's also quite a weird car and only BMW will touch it.

I also looked at a whole bunch of hybrids but cost wise the Toyota wins due to low maintenance costs. The problem with the other choices are either high price or high cost due to unreliable / high maintenance cost engines. I get that you want a plug-in hybrid but likely the cost savings are negated by having much higher maintenance costs due to the way the engine is build. The newer Ford Focus models also have downsized engines which are expensive to maintain and prone to break downs. Maintenance and repair costs is one of the reasons I bought a gasoline car instead of a diesel BTW. A repair on a modern day diesel car easely undoes the cost saving due to slightly lower fuel prices. So far I have gotten way more mileage from the  Ford Focus on gasoline than with any diesel car I have owned before (which all ended up having engine problems BTW).

[tautech]

A repair on a modern day diesel car easely undoes the cost saving due to slightly lower fuel prices. So far I have gotten way more mileage from the  Ford Focus on gasoline than with any diesel car I have owned before (which all ended up having engine problems BTW).

The modern diesel with EGR has seriously compromised longevity due to the excessive contaminates the lubrication system must deal with. Even with EGR capable oils the lubrication system is challenged let alone the engine itself having to recirculate all that exhaust muck. If your vehicle tests can't detect it I advise disabling EGR in some manner that won't throw a ECU fault.
Quite simple on older cars, not so much on never ones.

[coppice]

What I mean by “ last gasp “ is exactly directed at people like you in saying “ crock green agenda “. Ice cars deliver significant pollution and noise into compact urban areas , BEVs do not. The issue is urban car usage

And not the global production footprint ?
Unless the whole picture is factored in it's a crock of shit.

Making our towns cleaner is a quantifiable win. This is not about achieving every goal at once. It’s about a series of incremental changes as time and technology allows

So no matter how much lithium mining might pollute some other country as long as we're making a difference at home ?
FFS and you were involved in working groups on EV's and have no conscience how their manufacture might impact other parts of the world ?
What about the possible pollution of that regions food production capability ?
No matter if they export it and have someone else eat it ?

How can you sleep at night ?

If you can only focus on one thing at a time sleeping at night is not so hard. If you look at the big picture you probably wouldn't be advocating for things he's advocating for in the first place. The most predatory people in the west tend to be myopic people who claim to be doing good.

[tom66]

I also looked at a whole bunch of hybrids but cost wise the Toyota wins due to low maintenance costs. The problem with the other choices are either high price or high cost due to unreliable / high maintenance cost engines. I get that you want a plug-in hybrid but likely the cost savings are negated by having much higher maintenance costs due to the way the engine is build. The newer Ford Focus models also have downsized engines which are expensive to maintain and prone to break downs. Maintenance and repair costs is one of the reasons I bought a gasoline car instead of a diesel BTW. A repair on a modern day diesel car easely undoes the cost saving due to slightly lower fuel prices. So far I have gotten way more mileage from the  Ford Focus on gasoline than with any diesel car I have owned before (which all ended up having engine problems BTW).

Disagree,  I'll dig out my spreadsheet that I used to justify the PHEV.  Even with the loan interest I used to stretch my budget, my GTE was pretty much cost neutral to my 1.8L petrol powered Focus. (Man that car was a pile of crap!  But that's what you get for buying a cheap used car I guess.)  That was on economy7 electricity at 8p/kWh which has pretty much not changed for the last 4 years, only difference is the time period moved after getting a smart meter.  I managed to go to and from work on electricity alone, over 3000 miles to a petrol tank in one stint at one point.  I had to pay for charging at work, but I was paying about £15 a month in winter and £7 a month in the summer.  So my commute was costing me about £20 a month in electricity (75% of that being work electricity), for 500 miles a month... about 4p/mile.  For comparison, tyres are about 2p/mile and the Focus was about 16p/mile on fuel.

The biggest problem with PHEVs is you need to stay within their battery range and religiously charge them to get the best economy and to be honest I'm getting tired of having to find random AC chargers in car parks to get max economy... the infrastructure for PHEVs oddly has to be better than pure EVs (if you want to actually use the battery.)  I just want a car that within 200 miles or so has good economy,  and for that few percent of longer journeys a bit of planning using ABRP is fine, even if I do pay 50p/kWh or something for fast charging.

Also you have to realise that while I could probably achieve 70mpg with something like a Prius I don't want to drive a Prius.  The nice thing with EVs is you can have a 200hp car and still get 4mi/kWh.  One of the most efficient EVs out there is Model 3 RWD and that's got a 302hp motor. 

[tggzzz]

What kind of ICE are you talking about here? A Rolls Royce?

A Range Rover perhaps?

I guess the fuel costs do add up. But have you taken into account the cost of a new battery into your math? Or did you somehow magically lose that somewhere?

Why would I want a new battery after 6 years and 250,000km my leaf battteth is only down  two bars and the car reliably lies 130km on a single full charge

That's a revealing statement, arguably contradicting the "scientist" and accentuating the "mad" parts of your moniker.

Surely losing 2/3 of capacity is cause for replacement

Two thirds? It's a 30kWh first-gen Leaf. 120km is 75% of the marketing range of that vehicle.

This post brought to you by 18.3 seconds of fact checking.

Sigh.

I was obliquely pointing out that "down two bars" is meaningless - by presuming that there were only three bars. If you had said two out of 8 or two out of 10 then you would have conveyed some information.

That elementary error and consequent meaninglessness of your statement was the source of my snarky comment about "mad" and "scientist".

[tggzzz]

EV range:

http://abetterrouteplanner.com

Choose an EV, choose starting conditions (battery %), choose a start point and a destination, alter road conditions (headwind, temperature), and see how the range of the EV does and how often you would need to charge (if at all).

Not that I can see. (I thought I saw it yesterday, but maybe that was another site)

Nice thing about EVs is their efficiency is practically a linear function, so more weight or greater incline can be calculated for all EVs with minimal data points from one car.  I guess the same probably applies for ICE but there's the complication of gearing and engine efficiency at varying load.

Today's news, from https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2023/01/tesla-fined-by-korean-regulator-for-exaggerating-the-range-of-its-evs/ with my emphasis...

Tesla has been fined ₩2.85bn (£1.84m) by South Korean regulators for exaggerated claims over the range of its electric vehicles.

The car firm, which is headed by Elon Musk, claims that its Model S can drive up to 360 miles between charges.

According to the Korea Fair Trade Commission (KFTC), Tesla had been exaggerating the “driving ranges of its cars on a single charge, their fuel cost-effectiveness compared to gasoline vehicles as well as the performance of its Superchargers” on its official local website from August 2019 until recently.

The KFTC also added that driving ranges for Tesla EVs could plummet by as much as 50 per cent in cold temperatures.

Some studies have shown that in extremely low temperatures, the likes of which were recently experienced in the US (around -20°C), Tesla vehicles could lose up to 50 per cent of their range from an equivalently charged battery.

Tesla/Musk isn't exactly a reliable source of info about the capabilities of their vehicles.

[MadScientist]

No country or process can solve the environmental issues in every country in the world. So all that can be done is to focus on the possibles while over a much longer period focus on the bigger picture

What’d not acceptable is to keep claiming nothing should be done until “ everything « can be done. To often this excuse  is tried by “ deniers “ to claim no reform is possible

Lithium is both abundant and not environmentally difficult to extract

Western developed countries have huge urban based road pollution with very high no , C0  and hydrocarbon waste prodigy’s on the air, water and ground. This coupled with noise and other social pollutants means if we can act on private transport we should

Hence we act where we can.

This means where the technology can deliver better alternatives than we should and can act.

This is the reasoning behind the switch to BEVs. We have no workable alternative and the BEV solution can deliver for a big proportion of “ private “ drivers.

[MadScientist]

What kind of ICE are you talking about here? A Rolls Royce?

A Range Rover perhaps?

I guess the fuel costs do add up. But have you taken into account the cost of a new battery into your math? Or did you somehow magically lose that somewhere?

Why would I want a new battery after 6 years and 250,000km my leaf battteth is only down  two bars and the car reliably lies 130km on a single full charge

That's a revealing statement, arguably contradicting the "scientist" and accentuating the "mad" parts of your moniker.

Surely losing 2/3 of capacity is cause for replacement

Two thirds? It's a 30kWh first-gen Leaf. 120km is 75% of the marketing range of that vehicle.

This post brought to you by 18.3 seconds of fact checking.

Sigh.

I was obliquely pointing out that "down two bars" is meaningless - by presuming that there were only three bars. If you had said two out of 8 or two out of 10 then you would have conveyed some information.

That elementary error and consequent meaninglessness of your statement was the source of my snarky comment about "mad" and "scientist".

I had wrongly assumed you actually knew something about BEVs. ( and one of the most common models ) Clearly you don’t ,so I’m sorry I assumed something.

The range figures are based on what I actually get rather then your hypothetical computation

[MadScientist]

What I mean by “ last gasp “ is exactly directed at people like you in saying “ crock green agenda “. Ice cars deliver significant pollution and noise into compact urban areas , BEVs do not. The issue is urban car usage

And not the global production footprint ?
Unless the whole picture is factored in it's a crock of shit.

Making our towns cleaner is a quantifiable win. This is not about achieving every goal at once. It’s about a series of incremental changes as time and technology allows

So no matter how much lithium mining might pollute some other country as long as we're making a difference at home ?
FFS and you were involved in working groups on EV's and have no conscience how their manufacture might impact other parts of the world ?
What about the possible pollution of that regions food production capability ?
No matter if they export it and have someone else eat it ?

How can you sleep at night ?

If you can only focus on one thing at a time sleeping at night is not so hard. If you look at the big picture you probably wouldn't be advocating for things he's advocating for in the first place. The most predatory people in the west tend to be myopic people who claim to be doing good.

This type of “ cop-out “reasoning is used everywhere by deniers of one type or another

Pollution has to tackled at a national level. I ( or my gov) can’t influence other nations directly.

Yes a car has to built from  a polluting process and materials. That’s true of most western manufactured goods and that pollution is largely independent of use

What we can influence is thd pollution associated with “ use “ and that’s the focus of Bev. To primarily reduce pollution”  at the point of use “ as this has been indefinited in car dense environments to be very bad.

Hehce saying “ do nothing “ cause we can’t “ do everything “ is true denier  way out. We see the same nonsense arguments around climate change being advanced

Yet around me incremental change in the last 15 years has brought cleaner city air better water quality a reduction in roadside waste pollution etc. I see hedge roes regenerating and dolphins returning to waterways they had abandoned etc.

Site we can’t fix everything in one go but in no way should that be used to excuse all initiatives. Bev transistion will bring quantifiable advances to private motoring , hehce it’s justifiable in that alone.
  We simply must stop letting the pollution agenda driving any arguments

[tggzzz]

What kind of ICE are you talking about here? A Rolls Royce?

A Range Rover perhaps?

I guess the fuel costs do add up. But have you taken into account the cost of a new battery into your math? Or did you somehow magically lose that somewhere?

Why would I want a new battery after 6 years and 250,000km my leaf battteth is only down  two bars and the car reliably lies 130km on a single full charge

That's a revealing statement, arguably contradicting the "scientist" and accentuating the "mad" parts of your moniker.

Surely losing 2/3 of capacity is cause for replacement

Two thirds? It's a 30kWh first-gen Leaf. 120km is 75% of the marketing range of that vehicle.

This post brought to you by 18.3 seconds of fact checking.

Sigh.

I was obliquely pointing out that "down two bars" is meaningless - by presuming that there were only three bars. If you had said two out of 8 or two out of 10 then you would have conveyed some information.

That elementary error and consequent meaninglessness of your statement was the source of my snarky comment about "mad" and "scientist".

I had wrongly assumed you actually knew something about BEVs. ( and one of the most common models ) Clearly you don’t ,so I’m sorry I assumed something.

The range figures are based on what I actually get rather then your hypothetical computation

Strawman arguments...

I have never claimed knowledge of the front panel display in a Leaf. But my point doesn't require that.

I never challenged your computation. And my point doesn't require that.

I did - and do - point out the statement "...battteth[sic] is only down  two bars and..." is an elementary error that conveys no information about the battteth battery. But it (and your subsequent responses) dos convey information about you.

[MadScientist]

What kind of ICE are you talking about here? A Rolls Royce?

A Range Rover perhaps?

I guess the fuel costs do add up. But have you taken into account the cost of a new battery into your math? Or did you somehow magically lose that somewhere?

Why would I want a new battery after 6 years and 250,000km my leaf battteth is only down  two bars and the car reliably lies 130km on a single full charge

That's a revealing statement, arguably contradicting the "scientist" and accentuating the "mad" parts of your moniker.

Surely losing 2/3 of capacity is cause for replacement

Two thirds? It's a 30kWh first-gen Leaf. 120km is 75% of the marketing range of that vehicle.

This post brought to you by 18.3 seconds of fact checking.

Sigh.

I was obliquely pointing out that "down two bars" is meaningless - by presuming that there were only three bars. If you had said two out of 8 or two out of 10 then you would have conveyed some information.

That elementary error and consequent meaninglessness of your statement was the source of my snarky comment about "mad" and "scientist".

I had wrongly assumed you actually knew something about BEVs. ( and one of the most common models ) Clearly you don’t ,so I’m sorry I assumed something.

The range figures are based on what I actually get rather then your hypothetical computation

Strawman arguments...

I have never claimed knowledge of the front panel display in a Leaf. But my point doesn't require that.

I never challenged your computation. And my point doesn't require that.

I did - and do - point out the statement "...battteth[sic] is only down  two bars and..." is an elementary error that conveys no information about the battteth battery. But it (and your subsequent responses) dos convey information about you.

If you had any knowledge of leaf BEVs the statement would be instantly understanding

[tggzzz]

What kind of ICE are you talking about here? A Rolls Royce?

A Range Rover perhaps?

I guess the fuel costs do add up. But have you taken into account the cost of a new battery into your math? Or did you somehow magically lose that somewhere?

Why would I want a new battery after 6 years and 250,000km my leaf battteth is only down  two bars and the car reliably lies 130km on a single full charge

That's a revealing statement, arguably contradicting the "scientist" and accentuating the "mad" parts of your moniker.

Surely losing 2/3 of capacity is cause for replacement

Two thirds? It's a 30kWh first-gen Leaf. 120km is 75% of the marketing range of that vehicle.

This post brought to you by 18.3 seconds of fact checking.

Sigh.

I was obliquely pointing out that "down two bars" is meaningless - by presuming that there were only three bars. If you had said two out of 8 or two out of 10 then you would have conveyed some information.

That elementary error and consequent meaninglessness of your statement was the source of my snarky comment about "mad" and "scientist".

I had wrongly assumed you actually knew something about BEVs. ( and one of the most common models ) Clearly you don’t ,so I’m sorry I assumed something.

The range figures are based on what I actually get rather then your hypothetical computation

Strawman arguments...

I have never claimed knowledge of the front panel display in a Leaf. But my point doesn't require that.

I never challenged your computation. And my point doesn't require that.

I did - and do - point out the statement "...battteth[sic] is only down  two bars and..." is an elementary error that conveys no information about the battteth battery. But it (and your subsequent responses) dos convey information about you.

If you had any knowledge of leaf BEVs the statement would be instantly understanding

  Very droll; thanks for the laugh!

How many people here know the details dashboard of one car?

If you are only intending your statement to be read by such people, say so.

[AVGresponding]

If you had any knowledge of leaf BEVs the statement would be instantly understanding

If you had any knowledge of scientific method, you'd provide evidence for your claims. As it is, as far as I'm concerned, you're merely blowing smoke; none of your posts has any substance whatsoever.

[MadScientist]

If you had any knowledge of leaf BEVs the statement would be instantly understanding

If you had any knowledge of scientific method, you'd provide evidence for your claims. As it is, as far as I'm concerned, you're merely blowing smoke; none of your posts has any substance whatsoever.

Why not explore another rabbit hole I’m
Sure there’s many for you

If your looking for expertise in this subject EEVBLOG  is not the place to debate this rubbish , it seems populated by climate deniers and alt right conspiracy nutcases

[AVGresponding]

If you had any knowledge of leaf BEVs the statement would be instantly understanding

If you had any knowledge of scientific method, you'd provide evidence for your claims. As it is, as far as I'm concerned, you're merely blowing smoke; none of your posts has any substance whatsoever.

Why not explore another rabbit hole I’m
Sure there’s many for you

If your looking for expertise in this subject EEVBLOG  is not the place to debate this rubbish , it seems populated by climate deniers and alt right conspiracy nutcases

In other words, you have no evidence for your claims, or are too lazy to produce it.

[Monkeh]

But it (and your subsequent responses) dos convey information about you.

Yours are conveying information also, for a start, you're not bothering to pay attention to who's speaking.

[tggzzz]

But it (and your subsequent responses) dos convey information about you.

Yours are conveying information also, for a start, you're not bothering to pay attention to who's speaking.

You're right; my mistake. I must have seen the initial "M....", and incorrectly presumed that only MadScientist and I would be paying attention to this trivial sub-sub-thread.

Anyway, my apologies to MadScientist for that misattribution. My other points stand.

[tggzzz]

If you had any knowledge of leaf BEVs the statement would be instantly understanding

If you had any knowledge of scientific method, you'd provide evidence for your claims. As it is, as far as I'm concerned, you're merely blowing smoke; none of your posts has any substance whatsoever.

Why not explore another rabbit hole I’m
Sure there’s many for you

If your looking for expertise in this subject EEVBLOG  is not the place to debate this rubbish , it seems populated by climate deniers and alt right conspiracy nutcases

There are too many zealots of all kinds, unfortunately. This forum is no exception.

[rstofer]

It's just a car; you pay money and you get something to park in the garage.

Seriously, you lease the car for 3 years and at the end you either turn it back or buy it for the residual.  I have done both.  I didn't want to OWN battery problems so the lease was attractive and considerably less money per month (like $300 vs $600).

In any event, you might hold on to the car for, say, 10 years and then repeat the process.  Maybe less if the batteries go bad.  On a lease, you just turn it back and get another.  The warranty will cover the first years so you're not on the hook if the batteries go awry.  Figure an ongoing lease payment forever and you get a new car every 3 years.

I have no idea why I bought out the Bolt but I do like the car.  It fits our needs very well.

At my age, there probably won't be a 'next car'.

[tautech]

What I mean by “ last gasp “ is exactly directed at people like you in saying “ crock green agenda “. Ice cars deliver significant pollution and noise into compact urban areas , BEVs do not. The issue is urban car usage

And not the global production footprint ?
Unless the whole picture is factored in it's a crock of shit.

Making our towns cleaner is a quantifiable win. This is not about achieving every goal at once. It’s about a series of incremental changes as time and technology allows

So no matter how much lithium mining might pollute some other country as long as we're making a difference at home ?
FFS and you were involved in working groups on EV's and have no conscience how their manufacture might impact other parts of the world ?
What about the possible pollution of that regions food production capability ?
No matter if they export it and have someone else eat it ?

How can you sleep at night ?

If you can only focus on one thing at a time sleeping at night is not so hard. If you look at the big picture you probably wouldn't be advocating for things he's advocating for in the first place. The most predatory people in the west tend to be myopic people who claim to be doing good.

This type of “ cop-out “reasoning is used everywhere by deniers of one type or another

Pollution has to tackled at a national level. I ( or my gov) can’t influence other nations directly.

Yes a car has to built from  a polluting process and materials. That’s true of most western manufactured goods and that pollution is largely independent of use

What we can influence is thd pollution associated with “ use “ and that’s the focus of Bev. To primarily reduce pollution”  at the point of use “ as this has been indefinited in car dense environments to be very bad.

Hehce saying “ do nothing “ cause we can’t “ do everything “ is true denier  way out. We see the same nonsense arguments around climate change being advanced

Yet around me incremental change in the last 15 years has brought cleaner city air better water quality a reduction in roadside waste pollution etc. I see hedge roes regenerating and dolphins returning to waterways they had abandoned etc.

Site we can’t fix everything in one go but in no way should that be used to excuse all initiatives. Bev transistion will bring quantifiable advances to private motoring , hehce it’s justifiable in that alone.
  We simply must stop letting the pollution agenda driving any arguments

And what has achieved that ?
Advances in ICE technology perhaps ?

[eti]

You're all full of your own self-proclaimed "cleverness". More words doesn't mean something is more likely. Don't you got better things to do? I come on here maybe 1-2x a week - some of you LIVE on here. That's pretty sad, tbh. Don't you have ACTUAL LIVES?

[Monkeh]

You're all full of your own self-proclaimed "cleverness". More words doesn't mean something is more likely. Don't you got better things to do? I come on here maybe 1-2x a week - some of you LIVE on here. That's pretty sad, tbh. Don't you have ACTUAL LIVES?

Let me just translate this post a moment:

You're all so sad, discussing a subject I've already made my mind up about. I can't possibly be wrong, but you all are for even entertaining the thought of civil conversation. That's why I'm here five days a week insulting you all.

[nctnico]

We need more math in this thread.

Yes and no.

1) There are large differences in situation, car use and electricity prices per country which highly influence cost per km and suitability of a BEV.
2) There are several seeking justification of their choice. I bought it, so it must be good. I can't be wrong. Please tell me I'm not an idiot!
3) There is a group of people that don't really care about how much they spend on a car; it just should look good to show off to the neighbours
4) There are people for whom a car is just a tool and it should be cheap to buy & run.

If you apply math & logic, then you'll largely be catering point 4 and a little bit point 1.