Author Topic: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.  (Read 12505 times)

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Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Perhaps its time to rethink this whole electric car thing through again.

Imagine this happening in a garage full of electric cars and the chain reaction???

« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 08:23:41 pm by Specmaster »
Who let Murphy in?

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Offline bd139

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2018, 08:13:19 pm »
Petrol scares the shit out of me more.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-46290095
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2018, 08:15:02 pm »
Perhaps its time to rethink this whole electric car thing through again.

https://www.youtube.com/ch?v=WdDi1haA71Q&feature=em-lsp

Imagine this happening in a garage full of electric cars and the chain reaction???
You mean how petrol cars aren't full of oil and literal fuel?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 08:34:46 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2018, 08:16:35 pm »
For some reason the link has become corrupted and I'm struggling to find the original video, I'll keep looking, watch this space  :-DD :-DD
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Offline oPossum

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2018, 08:22:28 pm »
Fixed link

 

Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2018, 08:24:20 pm »
Haha, we both resolved it then.
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Offline dr.diesel

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2018, 08:37:43 pm »
Actual fault, no BMS, overcharged?  How grossly overcharged until those burst into flames?

Not toys, those guys are lucky, hope they learned their lesson before a customer gets hurt with poor engineering/practices. 

Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2018, 08:44:40 pm »
While that maybe, the point is in a RTA and a fire results and those batteries then become lethal sending flaming bombs out in all directions.
Do a google search for Tesla fires, these heaps of them.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2018, 08:46:19 pm »
They don't though. They burn in a controlled fashion through the vent ports in the side of the packs.

Anyway, I'll take the Tesla please:



And definitely not the Vauxhall Zafira which was known for spontaneously combusting just randomly.



You are soooooooooo much safer in an EV. If it goes up in flames the reaction takes minutes not seconds. You have time to get out or be extracted.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 08:48:49 pm by bd139 »
 
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Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2018, 08:49:03 pm »
But thats a frontal accident, batteries are under the boot (trunk) and rear seat I think.

« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 08:51:41 pm by Specmaster »
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Offline bd139

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2018, 08:54:05 pm »
The battery spans the entire underpan.

The point is you an hit that battery and it will just vent like this.



Most of the auto infernos you see aren't directly due to the battery which will vent safely but because the plastics and tyres caught fire.

There is a terminator 2 type melted lump in the middle of my road where a petrol car caught fire...

The reaction is quite slow. It isn't an explosion. This is petrol:



Imagine that in an accident...
 

Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2018, 08:55:36 pm »
Yep  Vauxhall Zafira is not the only car known for that either, many French cars used to self ignite overnight.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2018, 08:56:32 pm »
Hopefully not Citroens  :-DD
 

Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2018, 09:02:50 pm »
Maybe this might explain where the rumour about french cars came from, it was mentioned on Top Gear and you never really know when they something if its fact or said for comedic value  :-DD

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/deadly-self-igniting-iranian-made-cars-causing-concern/article676501/
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Offline hans

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2018, 09:56:02 pm »
We are already pushing out millions of Lithium batteries into tablets, smartphones and laptops. Only a handful of them spontaneously self combust (except for the Note 8 phone), so I don't think it's a chronic problem.
But yeah, any chain reaction would be messy. I think it's pretty common to LiPo batteries (that are a bit more unstable than Lithium-Ion) in special bags or containers that should contain the fire when it is stored.

In contrast.. A combustion engine is designed to operate on the principle of combustion. We pour 50 liters of combustible liquid (that quickly evaporates as a toxic gas) into a tank, that is pumped into a specially designed metal block with combustion chambers that house controlled explosions. We need an thermostat and active cooling system to make sure this system won't overheat when it's just running stationary. The designed operating temperature is in the order of 90 to 110C, plenty hot for nasty burns. The exhaust fumes of a car are fed and filtered through an exhaust pipe, where toxic concentrations of oxocarbons (and the like) are still present. In addition in a diesel engine, if any fuel line leaks or hose starts to erode due to aging, it may light the whole engine bay no fire in no time. This is (or was?) actually not uncommon with older buses (that are poorly maintained) in the Netherlands.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2018, 11:32:43 pm »
Wouldn't it make sense for garages (both residential and commercial) to have fire sprinklers? (Anyone remember when "First On Recall Day" had problems with a switch that would short at random and start fires?)
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Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2018, 11:49:57 pm »
Perhaps its time to rethink this whole electric car thing through again.

Imagine this happening in a garage full of electric cars and the chain reaction???


it was a matter of time before that brainless idiot got himself into trouble. I have no kind words to say about him or the work he does.
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2018, 12:26:56 am »
Wouldn't it make sense for garages (both residential and commercial) to have fire sprinklers? (Anyone remember when "First On Recall Day" had problems with a switch that would short at random and start fires?)


This is becoming common on new residential construction.  Older homes won't have sprinklers.

I don't give the issue a moment's thought.  I had a Chevy Spark EV for 3 years and I've had a Chevy Bolt for nearly 2 years.  Both have been excellent cars.

I haven't seen any REAL statistics.  For example, of those cars crashed in a certain way, how do battery car fires compare to gasoline cars.   It's pretty easy to say "Well, it's known that Tesla cars go up in flames!"  So did the Pinto!  And so do many other gasoline cars in certain types of accidents.  Happens all the time.

According to this article, there has never been a battery fire in a Chevy Volt or Bolt:
https://www.torquenews.com/1/why-tesla-batteries-catch-fires-bolt-and-volt-batteries-dont

There are similar articles re: Chevy battery construction all over Google.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2018, 12:43:07 am »
The problem with sprinklers is that they do a lot of damage. In this case it would have been significantly more damage than the fire caused without them. They're only useful to prevent a total loss.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2018, 01:50:43 am »
Sprinklers in a parking lot wouldn't do much damage to non-burning cars --- which normally have to survive being rained on anyway.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2018, 02:26:41 am »
Sprinklers in a parking lot wouldn't do much damage to non-burning cars --- which normally have to survive being rained on anyway.
Sprinklers tend to be inside. I don't think I've ever seen sprinklers in a parking lot. Besides, this was a workshop. That's a huge bill when dowsed.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2018, 02:33:35 am »
I was referring to the question of how to stop chain-reactions in dedicated parking garages full of cars.
 

Offline Towger

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2018, 07:15:05 am »
Yep  Vauxhall Zafira is not the only car known for that either, many French cars used to self ignite overnight.
A neighbours couple of week old Merc spontaneously combusted when parked outside their house. Cause unknown, but Merc given them a new car, so no messing with insurance.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2018, 07:21:20 am by Towger »
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Ever wondered just safe electric cars are, like Tesla for instance.
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2018, 08:22:53 am »
I was referring to the question of how to stop chain-reactions in dedicated parking garages full of cars.

While a chain reaction can easily happen inside a battery pack, the risk of it happening between two battery packs at least a meter away from each other, is extremely small.

The energy release of a lithium ion fire is, ultimately, not that massive (I remember seeing analysis that when this happens with packaged cells, the energy release is the same order of magnitude than the cardboard packaging material combusting). The order of magnitude we are talking about is something like 100-200kWh released within 5-15 minutes, equivalent to a good big bonfire. An equivalent gasoline fire would be around 500kWh (for 50 liters or 13.2 gallons) possibly released within a minute or even less; yet, AFAIK it's rare that gasoline cars pop up in a chain reaction, even though gasoline car fires are extremely common and happen all the time (which is why, btw., all the big public parking garages have sprinklers, at least here... I think it's mandatory). Actually random gasoline car fires are so common they are not typically reported as single cases by the media, they go into statistics only.

Now, the issue within the pack is that the neighbor cell start to run away  at around 160 degC. The problem: the cells are just millimeters from each other - or completely in contact, with no thermally protective material - and in a big pack, it's a dense 2D matrix, so once you have a few cells going, they heat up the neighbors from multiple sides. The heat has nowhere to go, except to the other cells.

For example, IIRC, Tesla has claimed they have analyzed their pack can withstand any single cell running away - this makes sense as they have small separations (5mm? Not much, but more than usual) between the cells, and cooling pipes running between them. So, the fires have been caused by, for example, large enough physical penetrations to put multiple neighboring cells into thermal runaway.

In any case, this gives you the idea how close the heat source needs to be in order to cause the damage. Conceptually, you can simulate this with candles: when you really lump them together in a large matrix, there is a reported risk of a chain reaction, but once you separate them by an inch, that problem is gone.

Cars tend to be separated by at least half a meter, and the battery packs tend to be enclosed in metal, and don't tend to protrude near the car's external measurements. So, the pack-to-pack distance would be around one meter a least, and there would be multiple metal walls between, spreading the heat. Comparatively, take a modern fire stove; it has double steel wall with an outer envelope, with air cooling channels inbetween. I can safely tape an 18650 cell to such a stove, despite the >1000 degC fire going on inside, just 10 cm away!

While a burning car might set the neigbor's wheels on fire, no electric vehicle should have such a massive design failure that the wheel fire spreads to the battery pack (the opposite can happen).

And, when the fire is in open place, convection quickly cools and mixes the air, moving the heat to a larger area. If there is any hotspotting, it tends to be right above the fire. So maybe with tightly stacked cars without solid floor inbetween, as in a large multi-car tow truck / car transport, this could be a problem?

Within separate cars with enclosed battery packs, it would require very strange circumstances to bring any cell over its runaway temperature. Might be possible with an unfortunate vent hole directed right at the worst direction where a poorly protected battery pack of the another car sits, but cars seldom are parked within centimeters of each other, so the flame would need to somehow be extremely focused, and basically direct the full combustion energy of the pack to one place, in a narrow beam that exactly hits the battery pack of the next car. And for this to become a massive chain event of more than two cars, this unfortunate condition would need to repeat with every car in the line.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2018, 08:40:54 am by Siwastaja »
 


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