Fake $9 Chinese Intel 8087 chip from eBay

[Homer J Simpson]

[james_s]

I doubt it's fake, much more likely it's a genuine 8087 used pull that has been cleaned up, blacktopped and re-marked and sold as new.

[amyk]

It could be a remarked one from later, or even a pre-production sample. Given that it seems to behave identically to the "real" one, and the fact that the Chinese probably wouldn't bother actually cloning the functionality, I suspect it's not really "fake"... since the latter brings to mind remarked completely different ICs and reimplementations (e.g. the FTDI USB-serial converters.)

[james_s]

Apparently there was a Soviet clone of the 8087, otherwise real ones were made by both AMD and Cyrix. I would bet that the sellers of these "fake" ones simply take a batch of whatever variety of 8087 chips they can get, clean up the scratched up and worn looking tops, give them a fresh coat of paint and new markings. I'm not sure why some Chinese sellers decide this is a better idea than just selling used pulls but I've seen it on a variety of occasions.

[legacy]

edit:
my posts were misunderstood so I am going to delete them, except this one.
I wrote a public topic to apology!

[soldar]

blablabla, take a pic from the satelite, and look how much pollution China is maching around the world just to produce shit!

So, western countries outsource manufacturing to China and China is at fault?

This sucks!

Lighten up Francis.

[ebastler]

Unless the west learns not to buy shit from China, China will always make shit. It's business.

Well, China could put regulations in place, and fines. Get caught selling counterfeit products, have your entire inventory seized and destroyed and pay a hefty fine. Sell products not compliant with the safety standards they claim, ditto.

I think the Chinese government will eventually put such regulations in place, when they realize that the bad reputation hurts exports. (If it does...)

[soldar]

Well, China could put regulations in place, and fines. Get caught selling counterfeit products, have your entire inventory seized and destroyed and pay a hefty fine. Sell products not compliant with the safety standards they claim, ditto.

China could do many things. Everybody else could do many things to make the world a better place for all. Unfortunately most people and most countries only care mainly about themselves. The victims of stealing complain about the lack of morality of the thieves but they forget they made their fortunes by stealing.

It would be nice to live in a world where nobody steals or cheats. Unfortunately, humans will trample over others for very little personal benefit.

We complain about China but if we were in their place we would do exactly the same. In fact, we have done the same or worse.

Countries that are stricter about preventing pirating and swindling are not like that because they are more moral, they are like that because they are the ones who have more to lose. Morality is just the excuse they made up and it only cuts the other way.

[ebastler]

@soldar - not sure why you make that strawman argument. I don't expect China to regulate in order "to make the world a better place". I have explained why I consider regulations a realistic option for the future in my second paragraph, which you conveniently neglected to quote. 

[bd139]

This is same anywhere. So many whiners who don't understand international trade. Don't buy local market stuff on foreign market unless you're stupid or very very very wise and know the market and business customs very very very well. Only reason you do this is so you don't have to pay for supply chain accountability.

Don't go to China and buy a FTDI or AVR chip. Buy a CH340 or STM instead.

[soldar]

@soldar - not sure why you make that strawman argument. I don't expect China to regulate in order "to make the world a better place". I have explained why I consider regulations a realistic option for the future in my second paragraph, which you conveniently neglected to quote. 

Sorry if I offended you. My post was not intended to contradict yours in any way, just some thoughts that came to my mind after reading your post. Again, sorry if it looked like I was arguing with you.

[rsjsouza]

This is same anywhere. So many whiners who don't understand international trade. Don't buy local market stuff on foreign market unless you're stupid or very very very wise and know the market and business customs very very very well. Only reason you do this is so you don't have to pay for supply chain accountability.

Don't go to China and buy a FTDI or AVR chip. Buy a CH340 or STM instead.

That or you can afford the occasional pitfalls: loss due to shipment, unsuitable storage conditions, delays, etc.

To the topic at hand, is the 8087 really sought after? To me it is the type of device that is non-viable economically to clone given the very small market it caters. That or computerphiles are paying top dollar on these, thus increasing the margins quite astronomically. 

[aandrew]

First of all, for any western branded chips, unless it can't be made by the Chinese, don't buy it from China. Simple.
I feel confident buying Chinese Altera/Xilinx chips, since the Chinese can't clone them, and to my knowledge, A/X don't sell rejects and neither will TSMC.

I'm not disputing what you've said, but I'm genuinely curious how you've come to know this.

[james_s]

I really don't think it's worth getting all worked up about. If you're buying dirt cheap parts from China you have to be careful, but you can get a lot of perfectly good stuff there that would be prohibitively expensive to get any other way. The best way to combat the fake stuff is to be sensible about what you buy, and then ask for a refund for every single fake item, no matter how trivial the cost. Selling fakes is economically viable because so many people just cut their losses and forget about it.

[CatalinaWOW]

China will protect intellectual property and trade rules when it is to their benefit.  When they were catching up on technology it wasn't.  The situation may be ambiguous now, but in the very near future China will have more to lose than to gain by playing fast and loose with the rules and we will see them complaining about India or Brazil or Congo or whoever.

[technix]

Being Chinese I feel a bit offended by this, the whole categorizing China as a whole as a counterfeit s**thole thing. There are amoral thieves and there are also good folks doing honest business. I have to risk not being able to get my products through customs to mark them “Made in Shanghai”, just because a few thieves in Guangdong and Fujian decided to f**k up the Chinese brand.

I am also very angry about the fakers. I have also encountered fake chips - STM32F303 even. That chip almost fried my board by shorting out 3.3V power rail to GND.

[james_s]

Well, that's stereotypes for you, generally there's a kernel of truth behind them but that doesn't mean they apply to everyone. Back in the 60s Japan had the reputation for pumping out poorly made junk and by the late 70s Japanese goods were the cream of the crop. The same may happen to China eventually.

Also the consumers in the US and other nations who demand rock bottom prices are at least as much to blame as anyone else. The race to the bottom will continue as long as ignorant consumers continue paying money for crap rather than spending more for quality goods.

[technix]

If you want to buy dirt cheap chips from China you must 1) live in China and 2) speak Chinese in order not to be bitten by fakes. Living in China allows you to have fast turnaround time when something is acting weird, and speaking Chinese allows you to actually dispute the seller. Or just buy from LCSC which is (so far) reliable and ships fast.

[soldar]

... just because a few thieves in Guangdong and Fujian decided to f**k up the Chinese brand.

I am sure you are well informed of what the good people of Guangdong and Fujian think and say about the people of Shanghai and Beijing.

[soldar]

Well, that's stereotypes for you, generally there's a kernel of truth behind them but that doesn't mean they apply to everyone. Back in the 60s Japan had the reputation for pumping out poorly made junk and by the late 70s Japanese goods were the cream of the crop. The same may happen to China eventually.

China is already making a lot of high quality goods. The are making electronics for western brands. They are making mobile phones for the biggest phone market in the world: China.   The are making plenty of telecomm gear.  Judging an entire country by a small segment of ebay is just silly. It would be like judging America by how many people are getting mugged in certain parts of Washington DC.

I was very much impressed by the crossover SUV Trumpchi GS8. nobody has heard of it outside of China but it is a very good car.  The Chinese manufacturer will probably soon be selling abroad but, for now, they have a huge market in their own country.

Also the consumers in the US and other nations who demand rock bottom prices are at least as much to blame as anyone else. The race to the bottom will continue as long as ignorant consumers continue paying money for crap rather than spending more for quality goods.

And this is not only restricted to things bought in China. The quality of some things in America is in free fall for the same reason. Air travel is getting to be terrible in every way because airlines realize passengers only look at price when buying. The result is crappy travel. shall we blame all Americans for that? Well, in a way yes, because that is the result of what they demand. Same thing with phone service.

[CJay]

Lighten up Francis.

Please tell me that's a Stripes reference?

[technix]

... just because a few thieves in Guangdong and Fujian decided to f**k up the Chinese brand.

I am sure you are well informed of what the good people of Guangdong and Fujian think and say about the people of Shanghai and Beijing.

Yeah.

Well there is a reason behind AliExpress (the international facing one, not the domestic facing Taobao) have a few cities in Guangdong blacklisted from being allowed to sell on it. And Alibaba (the company behind AliExpress and Taobao) is located in Hangzhou, Zhejiang. Let’s say that those people are THAT bad even fellow Chinese can not tolerate them.

[soldar]

Lighten up Francis.

Please tell me that's a Stripes reference?

Yup. I was wondering if someone would get it.

[Kilo Tango]

Fake bits pollute the supply chain, you can't tell what is good or bad.

Once upon a time, I worked for a long established british company that made .... Their products were very good, had been going for a long time, they created a lot of the main technology and  manufacturing products used in medicine manufacture. They used one main OEM to build control boards. Unfortunately one of these boards would occasionally blow up, an LM358 opamp, specified as a Nat Semi part, would go short across the power lines, the design used a thermal limiting fuse, and when you pump 50W of power into a short circuit chip it cooks the PCB destroying it.

Trouble is the evidence is now destroyed. I strongly doubt the failed component was of National Semiconductor in origin, trouble is the pinning for this chip is commonly used, anyone could take any jelly bean opamp made by some crap far east company, relabel it as Nat Semi and the ISO9000 OEM would buy it cause it was cheap. Reputation got damaged, once a new £500,000 machine failed after 3 months. The word got around.

The company is no more, another death in british manufacturing ability, all because some sh*t OEM saved a few pence.
That is one of the consequences of allowing the component supply chain to become polluted with crap.

This will keep happening until people do not let price be the only sourcing driver. I buy important bits from Farnell, 'cause their supply route is traceable and they work.

If only Engineers control the whole manufacturing process.

Ken

[CatalinaWOW]

Fake bits pollute the supply chain, you can't tell what is good or bad.

Once upon a time, I worked for a long established british company that made .... Their products were very good, had been going for a long time, they created a lot of the main technology and  manufacturing products used in medicine manufacture. They used one main OEM to build control boards. Unfortunately one of these boards would occasionally blow up, an LM358 opamp, specified as a Nat Semi part, would go short across the power lines, the design used a thermal limiting fuse, and when you pump 50W of power into a short circuit chip it cooks the PCB destroying it.

Trouble is the evidence is now destroyed. I strongly doubt the failed component was of National Semiconductor in origin, trouble is the pinning for this chip is commonly used, anyone could take any jelly bean opamp made by some crap far east company, relabel it as Nat Semi and the ISO9000 OEM would buy it cause it was cheap. Reputation got damaged, once a new £500,000 machine failed after 3 months. The word got around.

The company is no more, another death in british manufacturing ability, all because some sh*t OEM saved a few pence.
That is one of the consequences of allowing the component supply chain to become polluted with crap.

This will keep happening until people do not let price be the only sourcing driver. I buy important bits from Farnell, 'cause their supply route is traceable and they work.

If only Engineers control the whole manufacturing process.

Ken

Even parts from Farnell and other reputable suppliers occasionally are fakes.  There are bad actors all over the world gaming the system and the best efforts of those who try are not totally sufficient to stop them.

You are still right to buy from a reputable source.  Your odds of getting what you paid for are far higher, and there is some recourse when failures occur.