Author Topic: Farewell to the DSLR camera  (Read 10533 times)

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Offline Zucca

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #50 on: July 15, 2022, 03:59:01 pm »
That's a good point about RAW files. The NEF format is not an open standard with an open specification for example. Every spec and open source codec out there is reverse engineered. JPEG is open.

As long you stay with the big ones, Canon, Nikon etc... I would not be so worried about the future RAW compatibility.
We should also not forget C-RAW for Canon addicted like me.

Interesting enough turning HEIF on disable some functions in Canon R6... :-//

ops...
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65624591
What?

Not surprised, we live in a JPEG world.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2022, 04:06:39 pm by Zucca »
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Online TimFox

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #51 on: July 15, 2022, 04:01:47 pm »
With any RAW files I want to keep, I first "develop" them into TIFF files, which I then edit/crop/correct.
The services I use to print them, always want JPEG files, which I create after resizing the images and canvas for the intended format.
(Since I often start with a full-resolution scan from a 4x5 inch film transparency, I can hear the pixels screaming as I compress them down to 11x14 at 300 dpi.)
Clarification:  my Epson 750 film scanner produces TIFF files directly, but my DSLRs produce RAW files, and the Pentax software "develops" them to TIFF.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2022, 04:18:51 pm by TimFox »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #52 on: July 15, 2022, 06:15:47 pm »
FUUU now I want a mirrorless and need to sell my DSLR.. I hate you all.

Because you think that's actually better? :-DD

WYSIWYG

As bd said, mainly exposure control....

And I do not agree with that. But surely we all have a different definition of "better" anyway.
And you never exactly get what you see in the camera display/viewfinder anyway. At least color wise.
I do not care about taking the "perfect" (if by that you only take purely technical parameters anyway, hence why I said it was good for cyborgs =) ) picture at first shot anyway. Digital cameras have this benefit that you can take almost as many as you want for basically free. Many DSRLs (including my Canon) have a mode with which it can automatically take a series of shots with varying parameters. That's more than enough for me. And for moving targets, you have a hard time beating a direct optical view anyway, and those automated shots modes are pretty handy.

Besides, most DSLRs can do both anyway. (Not necessarily both in the viewfinder, but at least on the embedded display, in cases you need that kind of view.

Just my opinion. The only real benefit for manufacturers is cost reduction.
 

Offline Zucca

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #53 on: July 15, 2022, 06:38:23 pm »
A few facts...

Mirrorless has better exposure control than DSLR.
It is not an opinion it is a fact.
Focus? DSLR are doing an excellent approximation job. Mirrorless do not need an approximation.
Again, the above it is not an opinion it is a fact.

Furthermore the absence of a mirror between lens and sensors is hard to beat to get the best out of a lens.
The closer you are to the sensor the better.

Many DSRLs (including my Canon) have a mode with which it can automatically take a series of shots with varying parameters.
Mirrorless does it too.... unrelated to the topic.

Here is were mirrorless are suffering:
1) battery life
2) Not real time viewfinder

Colors? Yes it's a taste thing, I love black and white portrait.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #54 on: July 15, 2022, 06:42:21 pm »
Also to point out that SLR cameras were a hack. DSLRs we’re a perpetuation of that hack. Mirrorless are the fix for the hack.

The viewfinder is not even slightly laggy on the Nikons. And yes the battery life isn’t great.

If I have any complaints it was that when I bought it you couldn’t get any spare batteries anywhere. by sheer coincidence I walked past a Nikon dealer in London who happened to have some in stock just delivered but I had to wait 4 weeks for that to happen.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #55 on: July 15, 2022, 07:48:34 pm »
Many DSRLs (including my Canon) have a mode with which it can automatically take a series of shots with varying parameters.
Mirrorless does it too.... unrelated to the topic.

If you don't follow the discussion or reasoning. =)
The point was that some people on here including you were saying that it was just better because you could see directly (WYSIWYG, remember?) exactly what you would get on the photo. To which I respond that I'll favor a direct optical view, combined with the fact I may not be able to select the best parameters this way, but largely mitigated with this feature of automatic varying parameters, which would let me select the best results later on.

That is largely opinion, and this is mine. So I'll repeat: I *personally* favor a direct optical view *even if I don't see the end result directly before taking the picture*, which can be largely mitigated (and often, more productively, at least again IMHO) with a rafale of shots using automatically varying parameters. Is that clear enough?


 

Offline radar_macgyver

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #56 on: July 15, 2022, 07:56:21 pm »
My rather old DSLR (Nikon D5100) has a 'live view' mode, but it disables the phase-based autofocus. The amplitude-only autofocus is a lot slower, and prone to hunting. Has this improved with the mirrorless cameras? The smaller body size is appealing, though many Nikon mirrorless bodies are not significantly smaller than their DSLRs.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2022, 07:59:18 pm »
Autofocus only hunts if you are well underexposing.

As for size, attached. I have the peak designs bag clip. It’s small enough and unobtrusive enough to clip onto the shoulder strap when I’m out hiking.
 

Offline mag_therm

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2022, 08:14:34 pm »
I have a case full of collection of vintage Pentax and Ricoh K mount metal body lenses starting from late 1970's.

For those of us wanting to continue using their brand of  35mm vintage  lenses, a mirrorless body is not much of a size advantage.
That is because the lenses have to maintain the original distance to the film plane that included the mirror swing.
Pentax bought out a apsc mirrorless. I had one and it was useless, being as big as a dslr and without an eyepiece v/f !

I also had an Olympus M43 mirrorless, I purchased the electronic eyepiece v/f but I never liked it.

Now I have a Pentax/Ricoh K-S1 dslr. It is a few years old now, almost as small and light as a K1000 or MX.
I use it completely as manual aperture and shutter and focus
Futher it has ability to switch off completely the rear screen and menu crap etc. That greatly increases battery life, it goes 6 months per charge and I have taken it on travels a few times without even the charger.
 

Offline nightfire

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2022, 08:34:21 pm »
My rather old DSLR (Nikon D5100) has a 'live view' mode, but it disables the phase-based autofocus. The amplitude-only autofocus is a lot slower, and prone to hunting. Has this improved with the mirrorless cameras? The smaller body size is appealing, though many Nikon mirrorless bodies are not significantly smaller than their DSLRs.

The Autofocus of the actual generation of mirrorless cameras has drastically improved.

The Nikon D5100 and other cameras that era (about 10 years ago) used mostly contrast-based autofocus, which is slow and was used with simple algorithms.
(D)SLR Systems back then were/are using phase-detection based AF, which means that there is a whole sensor array (usually placed in the bottom of a (D)SLR and getting its light via a second mirror behind the main mirror, which is translucent) dedicated to that.

Fun fact: The placement and way of function of that AF is the reason, why the best aperture for quick focusing is 2.8- higher numbers as widest aperture yields less light and worse coverage of the AF module, and a wider open aperture can cause internal reflexes due to much more light coming in, therefore reducing contrasts.
(In the german DSLR forum some years ago there was a long thread elaborating on this)
Also the live view of early cameras like the D300 or so was not intended to be able to use the camera like a "point&shoot" and hold in in the "stinky diaper hold" (C) Kirk Tuck- it was intended to make focusing easier with macro shots and such.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2022, 08:40:46 pm »
My rather old DSLR (Nikon D5100) has a 'live view' mode, but it disables the phase-based autofocus. The amplitude-only autofocus is a lot slower, and prone to hunting. Has this improved with the mirrorless cameras? The smaller body size is appealing, though many Nikon mirrorless bodies are not significantly smaller than their DSLRs.
Look up "dual-pixel / quad-pixel phase-detect AF".

In short, on high end MILC, pixels are made in such way that each of them could also technically serve as a PDAF pixel (dunno if all are actually used). The image sensor itself implements the function of SLR's PD sensors and PDAF works in live view mode.

Another (older) variation is replacing a regular subset of image pixels with dedicated split PDAF pixels and interpolating over them during image acquisition.
 

Offline radar_macgyver

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2022, 09:58:31 pm »
Thanks, good to know that the newer mirrorless cameras have decent AF mechanisms. The Quad-pixel stuff is very impressive. Since Nikon's mirrorless series is not F-mount compatible (the lenses I have aren't fancy enough to warrant an adapter), I might make the jump to Canon.

I use a Google Pixel 5a, and its camera's autofocus is really good (practically no hunting), even without assistance from a laser rangefinder. Wonder what method they use.
 

Offline nightfire

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2022, 10:15:00 pm »
Depending on the lenses, there are mechanical Adapters for F-Mount lenses to Z bayonet. This allows for manual adjustment of all parameters, if only some standard lenses have to be carried over for migration and features like AF and aperture adjustment from the camera body are not important.

Otherwise: Nikon is making now the break Canon did decades ago whilst transitioning to autofocus-so lots of things are disruptive now.
 
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Online mawyatt

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #63 on: July 16, 2022, 12:32:57 am »
If one doesn't have a previous lens bias, then Sony might be worth considering. They are the source of the better image sensors available for consumer cameras, Nikon uses some Sony sensors in certain models, and has been for some time now.

As much as I like Nikon they were late to the mirrorless game, but we've been using Nikon for many decades now and have many Nikon or Nikon compatible lenses, so would be more expensive to switch to Sony now, so we'll stay with Nikon.

Earlier the dedicated autofocus sensor was much more sensitive than the autofocus sensors integrated within the image capture sensor on mirrorless cameras, and this was the main reason for the mirrorless poor low light focus performance, however that has now improved.

Today all the cameras are so good and the algorithms for just "pointing and shooting" are almost as good as if someone knowledgable sets up everything before hand. Have a former colleague that is sort of a camera nut, and he has a bunch of the latest Nikon Z cameras (a D850 also) & lenses, yet he says his wife almost always gets equal or better images with her iPhone!!!

The new lenses are also getting much smaller & lighter, especially the new longer reach types that rely on Fresnel elements (have a Fresnel type 300mm that's about same size as regular 105mm and lighter)!! With the post image capture lens corrections capability the lens designers can focus (pun intended) on getting a sharp image at the corners without worrying about vignetting, or some aberrations and keeping the number of elements down which reduces weight.

Anyway, we are seeing a significant shift taking place with consumer cameras, although most of which is in the Smartphones, but as in many things the semiconductor technology is behind much of this.

Best.
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #64 on: July 16, 2022, 08:08:04 am »
If this would be made around $2000 I think companies would have a winner.


 
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Offline vtp

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #65 on: July 16, 2022, 02:01:31 pm »
I do not miss DSLR after using mirrorless cameras. Focus errors and need to compensate due to different distance between exposure/focus sensor and image sensor, mirror and shutter shock ruined pictures and bulkier size due to mirror box are things that I do not miss at all.

Canon R5, R6, R7 and a lot RF glass here.

 
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Online voltsandjolts

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #66 on: July 16, 2022, 04:22:37 pm »
I think there are some non-issues listed above.

I see mirrorless as having incremental improvements in quite a few aspects over DSLRs. Video is a big improvement though.
How much these mean to you is for the individual to decide, based on their own use case.

I'm a cheapskate, who bought a broke D750 on eBay (gambled) and fixed myself (flex connector fubar :phew:).
I like it and the huge range of secondhand Nikkor glass available.
If you add the adapter size to the ML cameras, they're the same size as DSLR really, so you gotta buy ML glass, if the smaller size/weight matters to you.

Would I spend the £1K+ to go ML? No, I'm a cheapskate (in photography).
But would it improve my photos? Nah, not at my skill level, and I don't do video.

Choose the camera you like, and enjoy using it 8)

We're lucky to live in times when such a wide choice of gear is available, camera obsucra must have been a bitch to humph around the hills ;D
 
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Offline Zucca

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2022, 05:24:18 pm »
right, but I see my DSLR equipment losing value over time quickly. So I decided to sell it asap before it is too late.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 11:57:41 pm by Zucca »
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Online mawyatt

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2022, 06:39:45 pm »
Another important technology innovation that has been emerging over the past decade is the use of an Electronic Shutter/Curtain with CMOS sensors. We began following this when they were first introduced since some of our Stack & Stitch Chip images can take 20 sessions with each session having 200~400 individual images per session. That's a lot of shutter/curtain excursions to render one final large Gigapixel image, which could easily wear out the shutter mechanism.

The Electronic Shutter/Curtain may not sound that difficult at first, just electronically turn on the image sensor and then turn it off to capture the image and then read out the pixels....right!!

When one digs into the details it's not so easy, the mechanical shutter/curtain has almost perfect optical opaqueness when closed, electronic shutter/curtains don't and can let intense light bleed thru before or after image capture, or even during readout. This is why some cameras with electronic shutter/curtains block the use of flash with electronic shutter/curtain use. Some of the Nikon cameras with Electronic Shutter/Curtains also employ mechanical shutters and have modes where both types are utilized.

Anyway, just another technology hurdle that requires addressing.

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 

Offline vtp

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #69 on: July 16, 2022, 06:41:23 pm »
Would I spend the £1K+ to go ML?

LOL, more like €20k glass included  :)

But would it improve my photos? Nah, not at my skill level

You are being too harsh to yourself. Will you get good pictures with DSLR? Absolutely. But with ML more of those and less frustration. I have noticed that of the amount of pictures taken with ML technically good ones are definitely majority, not so much with DSLR.

If you add the adapter size to the ML cameras, they're the same size as DSLR really, so you gotta buy ML glass

Yes and then it becomes expensive. However, that old adapted glass works much better in my experience in ML. Also, depends on what you would be adapting, with for example Sigma 40mm f/1.4 art or large telephoto the adapter is hardly an issue.

Any camera can be used to take excellent pictures. I have taken some of the best ever for myself with pocketables and DSLRs but ML makes the job definitely easier. They have their own quirks though.
 

Online TimFox

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #70 on: July 16, 2022, 07:52:57 pm »
An old saying in photojournalism to get good pictures:
"f/5.6 and be there"
 
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Online voltsandjolts

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Offline PicuinoTopic starter

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #72 on: July 16, 2022, 09:18:04 pm »
Capture the decisive moment
 

Offline harerod

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2022, 09:14:32 pm »
Quote from: voltsandjolts on Yesterday at 21:04:20
...
>"If your photographs aren't good enough, you're not close enough."
...


Great quote, sadly, towards the end, it didn't work too well for Bob.
Although I had some close encounters while taking pictures, so far without fatal results.

My favorite hobby targets are birds. Especially with the smaller ones, quite often a 600mm lens on a full frame sensor is still not long enough. So it takes lots of patience to wait for something interesting to happen close enough.
Some of my better pictures feature a couple of grebes, who keep building their nest in a lake, about 10m from the shore. This year it was the fourth season that I followed their raising chicks.

A typical session lasts between one and two hours. The 5DmkIV is usually mounted on a tripod and in standby. I make a habit of using the viewfinder and manually focus on interesting targets. Only for actual shooting I wake the camera up.
https://harerod.de/lbr/tierbilder/voegel/grebe/pics/1080/IM5_4967-7.jpg
https://harerod.de/lbr/tierbilder/voegel/grebe/grebe.html <- "13.05.2022 - Erstes Küken" - "First Chick" - in this  year's series.
Before anyone asks "Why grebes?" Well, they have a funny mating ritual
https://harerod.de/lbr/tierbilder/voegel/grebe/grebe_2020.html#200316
and it is cute to see them carry the newborn on their backs.

A friend of mine has been using Sony Alphas for years. I like the features of the electronic viewfinder, especially exposure control. The option of switching to fully electronic shutter is also a rather nice feature in noise sensitive environments (e.g. church). I would like to make the switch to mirror less, however, at the moment I couldn't bring myself to shell out the money.
 

Offline harerod

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Re: Farewell to the DSLR camera
« Reply #74 on: July 17, 2022, 09:21:00 pm »
Capture the decisive moment
Reminds me of Gary Ramage's "The Shot", which kept me company during a long journey from Sydney (via Perth and Dubai) back to Frankfurt.
https://shawjonathan.com/2016/08/23/gary-ramages-the-shot/
 


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