EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: jc101 on December 02, 2024, 02:09:56 pm
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Short précis of a nightmare, still unresolved.
Ordered some test gear that was way above my credit limit last week. The agent took the payment with my company card, said it would be passed for the shipment to be released. It wasn't released.
As explained to me by their credit control, payment is held and taken on shipping the goods. Shipping is adamant that nothing will be shipped until after funds are cleared. After 3 days of this circular discussion internally with Farnell, credit control very apologetically gave up and said my only option was to cancel the order. Which we did on the phone.
Expecting the hold on the funds to be released I check my bank. To discover that Farnell had then authorised the collection of the funds, what was pending now isn't. It's gone.
Call them, again, this morning, they have no record of the funds. Suggest I call my bank. I've lost count of how many times I've called them, no one calls back. I passed on that my bank would raise this as fraud, so they better get the tape of the agent who took the payment ready.
So I'm left with a large hole in my bank account, and the wait "for a few days" whilst Farnell consider their next steps.
Oh, and if you ever have to prove they have taken a card payment, a screen shot of an on-line banking page isn't good enough. A statement might be, which I haven't had in years.
Ordering on-line generally seamless. If you have to interact with them, well, good luck with that.
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Sounds like you should immediately report to police plus your bank as fraud?
If more people did that, these bullshit companies would stop doing this crap to their customers.
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Have you actually spoken with someone at the bank to check? Sometimes online banking or banking phone apps are a little bit tardy in showing transactions.
If there's a lesson here (apart from avoid Farnell!), it's use a credit card.
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ouch , and the headaches begin . . . .
lessoned learn , never spend above my credit limit
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Sounds like you should immediately report to police plus your bank as fraud?
If more people did that, these bullshit companies would stop doing this crap to their customers.
I called them, they said to take action they would have to record it as fraud. As money has been taken but the recipient hasn't received it. I fed that back to Farnell, said I'd be after the recording of the call when the funds were taken. They didn't seem to like that idea.
Have you actually spoken with someone at the bank to check? Sometimes online banking or banking phone apps are a little bit tardy in showing transactions.
If there's a lesson here (apart from avoid Farnell!), it's use a credit card.
My company only has a debit card. I only place orders when the money is in the bank to for pay for them. I also pay invoices when they arrive, I deal with many other small companies who really appreciate that. In over 10 years of working this way, this is the only problem I've had. I could see the pending payment within a few seconds of paying with the card. Where it sat pending for days, waiting for Farnell to finalise the transaction.
Generally I raise a PO, and either pay a proforma or invoice by bank transfer when the goods arrive.
ouch , and the headaches begin . . . .
lessoned learn , never spend above my credit limit
I will defiantly not be looking at Farnell for large purchases in the future. Unfortunately they had stock, everyone else was quoting 4 weeks.
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I called them, they said to take action they would have to record it as fraud.
Just do it! They will face some consequences and that will be the only driving factor to make things better. Is it enough, I don't know. The problem with companies behaving like shit is they get away with it. You should draw the line at the point where you are suffering actual damage. This is a big no-no. They should be the only ones who suffer damage from their own mismanagement.
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I called them, they said to take action they would have to record it as fraud.
Just do it! They will face some consequences and that will be the only driving factor to make things better. Is it enough, I don't know. The problem with companies behaving like shit is they get away with it. You should draw the line at the point where you are suffering actual damage. This is a big no-no. They should be the only ones who suffer damage from their own mismanagement.
Tempting, currently sitting waiting for them to answer the phone. Been ringing for 5 minutes so far...
If I go the fraud route, I'd need to check what happens with my company account and a new card gets issued. The problem is I have deadlines to meet, etc. Which is why I needed the equipment in the first place.
Edit to add it looks like after 6 minutes, their phone system just drops the call.
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This is probably something that just requires a few days to resolve. To call it fraud is going a bit far. Also, if it is a business to business transaction the police are very unlikely to get involved, it will be determined to be a civil matter. Whilst fraud does exist against corporate entities, the threshold for calling something fraud is much more significant than taking monies for a few days when an honest intention to fulfil the order still exists.
If you urgently need the cash, send a letter before action to Farnell to the email address. Make specific note of the fact that you will commence legal proceedings if the money is not returned within 14 days -- in common law, you do need to give "reasonable time" for such matters to be resolved and that's usually been interpreted as at least 14 days.
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Trying to understand this:
1. You couldn't pay by credit card because the amount was above the credit limit
2. Therefore you opted to pay by debit card instead
3. But with a debit card (unlike a credit card) there is no guarantee of payment (a hold on funds is not a bank guarantee)
4. The normal shipping process is that they would only charge your card when the goods are shipped (with a credit card this is fine, the payment is pre-approved and guaranteed by the issuing bank)
5. But with a debit card there was no guarantee that payment would be approved, so they couldn't ship on the basis of a debit card payment
6. The sales agent should have told you this up front and asked for another form of payment like a bank transfer
7. The sales agent screwed up and accepted a debit card when it should have been a credit card
8. Then someone at their end apparently messed up and put the payment through instead of cancelling it after you cancelled the order
Is this about right?
This seems like an ugly situation. It seems to justify the advice of never using a debit card for online payments.
Do you have a business account with the bank? I would hope you get better customer service with a business account. A suggestion, it can often help to visit a bank branch in person and talk to a customer representative there, rather than sitting on the phone. The bank should have a record of the payment and where it went.
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This is probably something that just requires a few days to resolve. To call it fraud is going a bit far. Also, if it is a business to business transaction the police are very unlikely to get involved, it will be determined to be a civil matter. Whilst fraud does exist against corporate entities, the threshold for calling something fraud is much more significant than taking monies for a few days when an honest intention to fulfil the order still exists.
If you urgently need the cash, send a letter before action to Farnell to the email address. Make specific note of the fact that you will commence legal proceedings if the money is not returned within 14 days -- in common law, you do need to give "reasonable time" for such matters to be resolved and that's usually been interpreted as at least 14 days.
Farnell said this morning I should raise it with my bank. They flatly refused they had the cash. When I spoke with the bank, they said based on what Farnell said, it would be fraud. Dealt with by the bank as such.
I have been speaking with the finance and credit people this afternoon who have now said "not us" and punted me over to a support team. They hinted they may have "found" a transaction in their account, but need to discuss what to do with it. There doesn't seem to be anyone able to make a decision, just going ever upwards to a supervisor. At some point they will run out of supervisors.
I've just asked if they have the funds, reopen the order and process it. If they refund, it may take a week to be processed.
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Trying to understand this:
1. You couldn't pay by credit card because the amount was above the credit limit
2. Therefore you opted to pay by debit card instead
3. But with a debit card (unlike a credit card) there is no guarantee of payment (a hold on funds is not a bank guarantee)
4. The normal shipping process is that they would only charge your card when the goods are shipped (with a credit card this is fine, the payment is pre-approved and guaranteed by the issuing bank)
5. But with a debit card there was no guarantee that payment would be approved, so they couldn't ship on the basis of a debit card payment
6. The sales agent should have told you this up front and asked for another form of payment like a bank transfer
7. The sales agent screwed up and accepted a debit card when it should have been a credit card
8. Then someone at their end apparently messed up and put the payment through instead of cancelling it after you cancelled the order
Is this about right?
This seems like an ugly situation. It seems to justify the advice of never using a debit card for online payments.
Do you have a business account with the bank? I would hope you get better customer service with a business account. A suggestion, it can often help to visit a bank branch in person and talk to a customer representative there, rather than sitting on the phone. The bank should have a record of the payment and where it went.
Close.
1. The order was above my trade account credit limit with Farnell, by several times. So I called them about the order to process payment.
2. The company only has a debit card. I have, in the past, used a personal credit card for purchases and the company has reimbursed me. HMRC were not too happy about that, though accepted the reasons why at the time. (I was buying some computer gear on company debit, card terminal battery went flat during the transaction, there was a hold on the funds for 7 working days).
3, 4, and 5. The debit card has served my company well for 12 years. The process works with all other suppliers I've used it with. The hold payment, then take it when the goods ship. The Farnell team flat out refused to ship as the transaction only pending, even through their own credit control team said it was OK. All of this is down to internal handling within Farnell.
6. I offered payment card or bank transfer. The agent only wanted a card payment.
7. The agent wouldn't know, it just comes up as a Visa card. It's worked perfectly fine everywhere else. I normally say it's a company debit card, no-one has ever baulked at that.
8. No idea what they did. The agent also didn't use my account number as the reference, just padded the field with a repeating number to fill the space. At least that is what I saw on the pending transaction.
The days of being able to visit a brach to talk about a business account are long gone. They sit you down with a phone and you speak to the same people I would call, on the rare occasion I need to speak to the business banking people. That in itself can be fun. Local branches, if you're lucky enough to have one, are not interested. Within Cambridge (UK), I've been moved branches 3 times as they have been closed and consolidated.
May have to apply for a company credit card. Though to be useful for such things needs it would need an initial hefty credit limit. It wouldn't really get used though. The debit card is handy for stuff, car parks, and the like. Though they won't enable it for ApplePay, which is annoying.
I only went with Farnell because of the stock situation. I normally try and go with smaller official distribution channels where possible, so much easier to deal with. Lesson learned there I think.
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The days of being able to visit a branch to talk about a business account are long gone. They sit you down with a phone and you speak to the same people I would call, on the rare occasion I need to speak to the business banking people. That in itself can be fun. Local branches, if you're lucky enough to have one, are not interested. Within Cambridge (UK), I've been moved branches 3 times as they have been closed and consolidated.
That, honestly, is a really annoying trend. In the town where I grew up in Hertfordshire there used to be branches of all four major banks, plus building societies like Nationwide and Santander. They are now all closed. There are no physical branches of any bank without driving to neighbouring towns.
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Farnell said this morning I should raise it with my bank. They flatly refused they had the cash. When I spoke with the bank, they said based on what Farnell said, it would be fraud. Dealt with by the bank as such.
I have been speaking with the finance and credit people this afternoon who have now said "not us" and punted me over to a support team. They hinted they may have "found" a transaction in their account, but need to discuss what to do with it. There doesn't seem to be anyone able to make a decision, just going ever upwards to a supervisor. At some point they will run out of supervisors.
I've just asked if they have the funds, reopen the order and process it. If they refund, it may take a week to be processed.
Contact your bank and ask for the BACS transaction details of them transferring money to Farnell's bank. If they can't do that, they can't prove they've sent it and should return the funds to your account.
If they do provide the transaction details, pass them on to Farnell as proof they should have received the money and tell Farnell to sort it out. It's possible Farnell's bank have screwed up so phrase it to Farnell as 'My bank has given me proof your bank accepted the funds for you. If your bank hasn't transferred the funds it accepted into your account it's your responsibility to sort it out since, for obvious reasons, I can't go ordering your bank to do things with your account.' Follow tom66's advice on warning them about commencing legal proceedings. This will put pressure on them to at least check with their bank about what they have done with the funds. If Farnell's bank tells them 'We placed the money for that transaction into your account at <this date/time>' that should provide a link between the money and the transaction they've "found" - that and the threat of legal action may result in someone getting the arse kicking they need to make them sort this out.
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The days of being able to visit a branch to talk about a business account are long gone. They sit you down with a phone and you speak to the same people I would call, on the rare occasion I need to speak to the business banking people. That in itself can be fun. Local branches, if you're lucky enough to have one, are not interested. Within Cambridge (UK), I've been moved branches 3 times as they have been closed and consolidated.
That, honestly, is a really annoying trend. In the town where I grew up in Hertfordshire there used to be branches of all four major banks, plus building societies like Nationwide and Santander. They are now all closed. There are no physical branches of any bank without driving to neighbouring towns.
It is indeed. It used to be very easy to interact with a bank. Now it's like the Spanish Inquisition just to get through to them. I called one this week to authorise setting up ApplePay, they said they couldn't help and I needed to call them via the banking app. I can just about see why that might add a layer of security, though the banking app doesn't appear to have a call them feature in it. Need to sort that out some point this week, when I get the energy!
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Farnell said this morning I should raise it with my bank. They flatly refused they had the cash. When I spoke with the bank, they said based on what Farnell said, it would be fraud. Dealt with by the bank as such.
I have been speaking with the finance and credit people this afternoon who have now said "not us" and punted me over to a support team. They hinted they may have "found" a transaction in their account, but need to discuss what to do with it. There doesn't seem to be anyone able to make a decision, just going ever upwards to a supervisor. At some point they will run out of supervisors.
I've just asked if they have the funds, reopen the order and process it. If they refund, it may take a week to be processed.
Contact your bank and ask for the BACS transaction details of them transferring money to Farnell's bank. If they can't do that, they can't prove they've sent it and should return the funds to your account.
If they do provide the transaction details, pass them on to Farnell as proof they should have received the money and tell Farnell to sort it out. It's possible Farnell's bank have screwed up so phrase it to Farnell as 'My bank has given me proof your bank accepted the funds for you. If your bank hasn't transferred the funds it accepted into your account it's your responsibility to sort it out since, for obvious reasons, I can't go ordering your bank to do things with your account.' Follow tom66's advice on warning them about commencing legal proceedings. This will put pressure on them to at least check with their bank about what they have done with the funds. If Farnell's bank tells them 'We placed the money for that transaction into your account at <this date/time>' that should provide a link between the money and the transaction they've "found" - that and the threat of legal action may result in someone getting the arse kicking they need to make them sort this out.
When Farnell mean "found" I think they mean just that. A transaction for the same amount as they took from the card is there. The key bit seems to be they can't do anything with it, as there is no invoice or transaction within their system to account for it. I get the feeling it just keeps getting punted up the management chain until it lands with someone who can make something happen, or shunted to a different department. If it ends back up with credit control or finance I may really lose the plot with them.
For the moment, I'm stuck waiting on them.
I did raise a formal complaint last week, at least I think I did, it didn't bounce. Nothing back from that yet.
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The days of being able to visit a branch to talk about a business account are long gone. They sit you down with a phone and you speak to the same people I would call, on the rare occasion I need to speak to the business banking people. That in itself can be fun. Local branches, if you're lucky enough to have one, are not interested. Within Cambridge (UK), I've been moved branches 3 times as they have been closed and consolidated.
That, honestly, is a really annoying trend. In the town where I grew up in Hertfordshire there used to be branches of all four major banks, plus building societies like Nationwide and Santander. They are now all closed. There are no physical branches of any bank without driving to neighbouring towns.
Some parliamentary constituencies don't contain a single bank! That gets their MP's attention, but they can't do anything.
I've been moved several times, the one in my village has been a dentist for decades, and the branches in my local towns (i.e. 8 miles) have mostly gone. OTOH my main bank account is at the same branch after half a century - and that's 150 miles away.
There was a 1980s set of adverts for NatWest, about having a local branch was like having a bank manager in your cupboard. Since I never needed to see a branch manager, I never saw the point.
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Isn't the "fraud" bit is just for the banks internal systems, nothing to do with legal proceedings?
Over here you just reverse it and then the bank washes their hands of it, it's the payee which has to decide how to handle it further.
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Isn't the "fraud" bit is just for the banks internal systems, nothing to do with legal proceedings?
I agree. Allowing bank to handle it as a fraud does not mean you are publicly accusing Farnell of fraud, or have to press charges on fraud.
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Yes, the bank said it is how they would process things from their standpoint. What that entails I’ve no idea. But it wouldn’t be my problem.
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For card associations, "fraud" means the transaction was never authorized by the cardholder. A fraud claim where you state that you initiated the transaction will (should) be rejected. The correct reason code is not fraud, but "credit not processed" (Visa 13.6, Mastercard 4853, AMEX C02, Discover RN2).
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For card associations, "fraud" means the transaction was never authorized by the cardholder. A fraud claim where you state that you initiated the transaction will (should) be rejected. The correct reason code is not fraud, but "credit not processed" (Visa 13.6, Mastercard 4853, AMEX C02, Discover RN2).
One would think that the banks would know this... sigh.
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I think because I had authorised a payment, but who was supposed to receive it said they didn’t get it. Hence the transaction that was supposed to happen wasn’t, so not authorised.
It does seem that the internal teams within Farnell operate to different rules, don’t seem to communicate with one another, and just want to pass a problem to a different team as fast as they can.
See what tomorrow brings I guess.
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It does seem that the internal teams within Farnell operate to different rules, don’t seem to communicate with one another, and just want to pass a problem to a different team as fast as they can.
This is my experience as well. Farnell is a nest of problems, always something super weird is going on. Large corporations are usually dysfunctional and hard to get proper customer support from, but Farnell is specifically bad, which is why I only use them as last resort option (Digikey, Mouser, TME primarily).
For example, one interesting case was when Farnell just decided to combine my account with someone else's account which had similarities in shipping address (that's all, billing address was totally different for example). I got my stuff, someone else got my bills. Despite enjoying my free stuff, I complained, and I would imagine whoever got the bills complained, but even when reaching an agent they would just go defensive and claim that what they do is normal and right and to be expected, and did never understand what was wrong with it. It's pretty amusing feeling when you communicate with someone whose brain operates in such totally unexpectedly different way. And, I never got the bills, no matter how much I asked to pay for my stuff. That someone else probably paid for my stuff in accident and I did everything I could but had to give up.
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I use my credit card above the limit all the time. I simply transfer money onto the card the day before so it has a massively positive balance to make up the difference i need. And before someone asks, no I'm not talking about a debit card, it's a proper Visa credit card.
I do also have a debit card but I actually cannot use it sometimes because it's got a $10k transaction limit regardless of how much money is in the account.
The credit card has no such issue. If there's money in there and the purchase wont make it go negative beyond the credit limit it will go through.
The only disadvantage is I don't earn airpoints/miles/flybuys on the positive balance that I used, only on the amount I've used in credit.
So I'm a bit confused about why OP couldn't do this. Can you not do that in some parts of the world? I'm in NZ.
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So I'm a bit confused about why OP couldn't do this. Can you not do that in some parts of the world? I'm in NZ.
The company only has a debit card. Normally I purchase via a trade account with Farnell, but the order was way above my credit limit on the trade account.
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Talking of Farnell, anyone else noticed that orders which are supposed to be next day from them usually end up arriving two or three days later. Before this summer they were always really prompt, even an order placed at like 1730 would leave their warehouse that night and be with me before the end of the next day. Nowadays even an order placed in the morning doesn't leave their warehouse until morning next-day at the earliest.
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Talking of Farnell, anyone else noticed that orders which are supposed to be next day from them usually end up arriving two or three days later. Before this summer they were always really prompt, even an order placed at like 1730 would leave their warehouse that night and be with me before the end of the next day. Nowadays even an order placed in the morning doesn't leave their warehouse until morning next-day at the earliest.
(Other side of the planet and a few years ago) after having some orders take well past the "X days in metro areas" to get to me I called them and found out that they consider all speed promises to be about the shipping stage, not the packing and dispatch stage. As a customer I care about the time it takes from paying for an order to it arriving onsite, but internally they seem to have a culture that only considers the last leg timed. :-//
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A update.
I was informed, absolutely, Farnell didn't have my money. I sent in evidence they did. After being pinged around several teams who said it was nothing to do them, Farnell finally accepted they had my money. They shipped a replacement order on Tuesday.
The curtain closes on Act I of the comedy.
Act II starts with a UPS man on my doorstep today, with my order. It only too 4 days to get here.
The UPS driver, however, would not let me have it. It was flagged as "intercept", and the driver took it away again.
After 35 mins holding for UPS, I am informed that the shipper, Farnell, has requested it be held for return to them.
Anyone know how to lodge a complaint with Farnell? They have ignored previous e-mails to try and raise one.
|O
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You could considering taking the loss and accept that your business relationship with Farnell is probably shot.
Painful, but at least you can get the money back, tell the bank to reverse the charge, send Farnell a letter to tell them you didn't receive the shipment and have reversed the charge, let the chips fall as they may.
It might be headed down the collection agency -> lawsuit route then though, so maybe try a little longer :/ No easy answers.
PS. one thing to do for certain though, ask the bank what the term limit is to reverse the direct debit charge.
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The downside is Farnell is one of a few suppliers who actually have stock in the UK, so for some items it saves a 3 day wait. Which if your on a short lead-time project is very useful.
I know I shall never attempt to buy test equipment from them again. I only went with them because of the long lead time elsewhere, which is kind of funny in a way now.
I'll be back on the phone again to them Monday. If it ever arrives and I get the usual "please leave a review of your recent purchase", I hope the text box will be large enough....
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My guess would be that someone there tried to force the order out quickly to fix the issue for you and they did not set it up correctly in the computer system.
So an automated system detected an order had shipment without matching payment (because it was not linked correctly) and it automatically triggered the intercept to get it back.
Lots of companies have automated systems running daily to detect and handle edge cases, like stuff shipping without attached payment.
It's been my experience that if you instantly complain about mistakes and demand they fix it ASAP the employees often make mistakes trying to help you, or they try to do things in the wrong order to speed things up, and that cause even more problems for you later.
I find it's better to give them a few days to figure things out, for payments to clear, for order systems to detect payments/refunds, etc..
Otherwise you end up arguing with them about the facts because what you're saying doesn't match what their computer is telling them.
You can argue that their computer system should be better, and yes that's true it should be.
But it is what it is, and it is what you have to work with.
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Agreed. Things are in an "unsynchronised" state in their systems, and the more you prod it, the longer it'll take to settle down.
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Keep evidence of this failed delivery. Does the tracking show it as failed? Save a copy.
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Final update. Called Farnell first thing Monday morning, they claim no hold on the package and would ask UPS. My normal UPS driver tried to deliver again a few hours later. His terminal also signalled intercept, which threw him somewhat. I explained I did want the package, and Farnell wanted me to have it too. So he called his supervisor at the depot, as he could not override the problem on his terminal. After a few minutes discussion, he left the package with me. He said he hadn't had this happen in 15 years with UPS.
Farnell have not responded to any e-mails to them, nor the made any comment on the complaint I raised with them. It's be radio silence, unless I called them. The only person at Farnell who has attempted to do something positive is an agent in the support team called Alex. I hope he has great Christmas.