Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil

[KL27x]

Oh, the irony. This white guy is exactly the kind of engineer who does well in his job despite admittedly poor grades . . .

Nice projection you got going there. I'm sure your boss loves you, too.

You don't see the irony, here? The professor is suggesting that proficiency in complex hard sciences is being OVERRATED in engineering. And that creativity should have more prominence. Dude who admittedly had poor grades but who thinks he got 4 job offers because he demonstrated creativity is crying foul.

The way he refers to and demonstrates his ability in Sigma 6 it's like he thinks he invented it. His employer sent him to a 4 day course to get a piece of paper. LOL

As a human being, I do not let this guy speak for me. Let alone as an engineer.

I don't think you understand what projection is, BTW.

[klaff]

That is the best video I've seen all year. It matches my points exactly.

Some questions on that video:

klaff, your response is appreciated, but do be aware; TwoOfFive is still a teenager (16?) and has no concept of most of the things you mentioned. It's entirely no surprise that he loved that video - it played right into his immaturity. Frankly, I'm a little concerned that the other engineers in this thread (who you might expect to be mature adults) share his perspective almost to a T.

edit: Including Dave, apparently 

Thank you, and yes I had seen TwoOfFive mention fear of university and presumed a young age, or at least younger than me. I'm trying (but not always succeeding) to stay polite, give sources, and hopefully make at least a person or two think about what I'm saying. There's a lot that I wish I would have learned decades ago.

[Mr. Scram]

klaff, your response is appreciated, but do be aware; TwoOfFive is still a teenager (16?) and has no concept of most of the things you mentioned. It's entirely no surprise that he loved that video - it played right into his immaturity. Frankly, I'm a little concerned that the other engineers in this thread (who you might expect to be mature adults) share his perspective almost to a T.

edit: Including Dave, apparently 

I'm not sure an argument from authority is helping things. Just saying someone is younger and doesn't understand isn't enough. You'll need to prove the worth of that seniority with arguments that make sense. After all, there's plenty old geezers who've completely lost touch with reality.

[mtdoc]

I suppose that means I care about this topic. Why does that bother you so much?

Because you spam it with long unreadable posts.

His posts are not spam and are quite readable.
You just don't like their content.  It appears you've been "triggered"

While I don't agree with all she says, she is asking reasonable questions.  Like many white males, I feel SJWs often go too far and are overly sensitive - but that is not what her views are about in this interview IMHO.

Can anyone explain to me what value Riley’s ideologies add to an engineer’s education?

She's an academic - asking questions relating to engineering's role in society, diversity, etc.  I don't necessarily agree with her thesis but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the question.

Can engineers expect a better chance of getting a job, or a better career from it, and if so how?

Not everything is about "what's in it for me".

The only “value add” I see that she offers right now is divisiveness, as evidenced in this very thread.

  I didn't see anything divisive in what she said. The guy who made the video in the OP on the other hand...

These threads here always crack me up. Clearly anything to do with gender, race, etc is not going to be explored in a balanced way on a forum that is almost exclusively a bunch of white males. They usually end up with a lynch mob mentality taking hold with ganging up on anyone who disagrees with the few outspoken people triggered by any even remotely feminist viewpoint.

[John B]

One observation on the beliefs of people like Donna Riley, and others who come from a feminist/far left authoritarian position, is the underlying belief structure that if you control words, you control people. If you look at the OPs clip, starting from 8:10, where Riley is giving a "lecture" on the etymology of the word, she list multiple definitions and contexts of the word "rigour", then uses her crude imagination to draw the conclusion that the concept of rigour is fundamentally phallic. That much has already been noted by people in this thread. However the next step is rarely spelt explicitly - namely that once the false idea/representation/concept is solidified as a credible idea, you can erode the actual idea/representation/concept. Essentially strawmanning the concept of rigour. The Persuasive Definition fallacy is also another recurring piece of sophistry that is heavily employed in the same way.

This way of thinking is endemic in the soft sociology departments and _______ studies departments, and is absolutely cancerous to the sciences. The most deep and successful understanding of the natural world comes from strictly and narrowly defining terms and concepts.

So for anyone under the illusion that Riley is just another person giving their opinion in the marketplace of ideas, they need to realise that for some sick reason western culture has embraced these pseudo-scientists and pseudo-intellectuals, and given them an undue weight and position in the public sphere.
 
In that theme, I can't help but notice that Donna Riley can also publicly admit to engaging in repeated acts of sexually harassing behaviour in the forms of suggesting that engineers who value rigour in their work should "whip out" their genitalia. I wonder if a woman and feminist will be held accountable for that behaviour? P(equal treatment)=0 

[coppice]

I believe Professor Riley is working to make the world a better place. That's something we should all be doing.

Can you tell us what she said or did which led you to that conclusion?

I'm basing it on what she appears to care about in her statements and the body of her work, which includes the book Engineering and Social Justice (the preface of which anticipates the responses in this thread).

The preface to that book says nothing very radical. However, the body of the book promotes dictatorship, and more recent videos you can find on YouTube (the book is 10 years old) much more forcefuilly promote dictatorship. Is that what you want?

[klaff]

I believe her intent is being exaggerated. She states in the interview "[R]igor is a concept that's been used really against a lot of engineering education researchers to devalue our work and it's even used within engineering" and then goes on to list some examples. She's not saying that the math shouldn't be taught, just that in the context, primarily of engineering education research, the lack of difficult math shouldn't be used to dismiss some research.

[klaff]

I believe Professor Riley is working to make the world a better place. That's something we should all be doing.

Can you tell us what she said or did which led you to that conclusion?

I'm basing it on what she appears to care about in her statements and the body of her work, which includes the book Engineering and Social Justice (the preface of which anticipates the responses in this thread).

The preface to that book says nothing very radical. However, the body of the book promotes dictatorship, and more recent videos you can find on YouTube (the book is 10 years old) much more forcefuilly promote dictatorship. Is that what you want?

I don't have her book. Where does she promote dictatorship?

[KL27x]

You're missing the point. I don't see anywhere that klaff "admittedly had poor grades," as you keep repeating, and you're the only one who brought up 6 sigma or a worthless 4-day class. These are entirely projections of your own making.

Ok, hold it right there, please. I'm obviously being misunderstood by at least you, if not others.

For some reason, I do not see the video link that is in Dave's OP, but I easily found it by google. And there's a white male who goes off on a female professor talking about the evil inherent in the word "rigor." I don't really care too much about her lecture. She has a job to talk about things, and what the hell. You have a deadline, and you write some stuff. And you say it. And you get paid. The guy in the video is who I'm talking about. He admits he sucked in his engineering classes, but that he got a lot of offers. If this is the wrong video, then my bad. If the poster of that video is, indeed, klaff? My bad for being so blunt right in front of him. I would have self-moderated a bit. But if he posted a public video that opinionated, I'm sure he has thick enough skin to handle it.

By saying that you're projecting, to explain my English, I'm suggesting that you have some pretty deep hate for someone you know who you are now projecting onto klaff in order to hate on him more easily/intuitively. That, or you have the stereotype of "dumb lazy SJW engineer who likes humanities" and want to exercise it, much like the cops who have the stereotype of "young black male drug dealing criminal" and eagerly exercise it by shooting someone. It isn't real, and it isn't doing you or anyone else any good.

I'm not projecting. The guy said this stuff, directly in the vid. Again, if I have the wrong vid, it is just my mistake. From the other posts, it sounds like I have the right video, with the exact same title as in the OP. Perhaps I chose the wrong time to make a post, because it seems like some of the members are in the middle of something.

https://youtu.be/tkJc3bjGQjQ?t=272
"Take me for example. I did not have the best GPA coming out of college. But I received 4 job offers before I even graduated. Because I demonstrated that I was THOUGHTFUL, CREATIVE, AND THAT I WAS A GOOD COMMUNICATOR."

Irony is that he is speaking against the professor, and yet here he is. Getting multiple job offers because he is creative and a good communicator, despite objective evidence that he is not a good engineer. Of course it's just a coincidence that he happens to be a white male.

[klaff]

You're missing the point. I don't see anywhere that klaff "admittedly had poor grades," as you keep repeating, and you're the only one who brought up 6 sigma or a worthless 4-day class. These are entirely projections of your own making.

Ok, hold it right there, please. I'm obviously being misunderstood by at least you, if not others.

For some reason, I do not see the video link that is in Dave's OP, but I easily found it by google. And there's a white male who goes off on a female professor talking about the evil inherent in the word "rigor." I don't really care too much about her lecture. She has a job to talk about things, and what the hell. You have a deadline, and you write some stuff. And you say it. And you get paid. The guy in the video is who I'm talking about. He admits he sucked in his engineering classes, but that he got a lot of offers. If this is the wrong video, then my bad. If the poster of that video is, indeed, klaff? 

Whoa there folks! I am not the guy in the video, nor did I post a video (except somewhere in this thread I posted a link to Professor Riley's interview). For the record I had pretty good grades in my university (magna cum laude) and I'm pretty skeptical about much of the 6-sigma business (although not at all about SPC, tolerancing, or  intelligent use of statistics in general). Now back to the rants.

[Ampera]

That is the best video I've seen all year. It matches my points exactly.

Some questions on that video:

klaff, your response is appreciated, but do be aware; TwoOfFive is still a teenager (16?) and has no concept of most of the things you mentioned. It's entirely no surprise that he loved that video - it played right into his immaturity. Frankly, I'm a little concerned that the other engineers in this thread (who you might expect to be mature adults) share his perspective almost to a T.

edit: Including Dave, apparently 

Don't underestimate me.

That big load of crap I posted was in a rush, I had like 30 minutes until I had to go somewhere.

I have a heavy and full grasp at all concepts at play here, and it is honestly insulting that you dismiss my arguments as childish and invalid strictly due to my age. If anything, the one form of discrimination I know about is ageism. I have been underestimated and pushed aside all my life, and will likely continue to be by people older or younger than me. It's something that I have dealt with, and I know what that sort of bullshit discrimination is like.

This, however, is something that serves to prove my point. You dismiss other people's opinions as being invalid just because they aren't yours. You go out of your way to find some sort of excuse as to why our opinions don't count, and how it is so worrying that we have them.

To insult me, and to even offend me is not an easy task by any means, and when it does happen I normally keep a level head, but your absolute disregard for what me and everybody who shares my opinion has to say is truly offensive.

As for the true and proper topic at hand, I believe that what she has to say is wrong. I think it's stupid, and I think it's possibly even damaging, but my solution to that is to debate the ideas. I admit to not giving enough of a shit to put the proper time into researching this specific topic to the degree I should have, and for that I apologize.

In every debate I have, I always find good points in what people say, and attempt to resolve the background that results in that statement. There are good arguments and points made here by both people, and I completely understand the mindset and opinion on how specific groups for so long have had advantages over others. My personal approach for it's resolution which involves my personal actions is to attempt to right the wrongs of my ancestors by being for policies and programs that give people who to this day don't have the money and resources to do what they want to do. My gripe is against people who try to forcibly change or smolder people's opinions to their own perfect world ideology.

Now I must eat dinner.

[Cerebus]

klaff, your response is appreciated, but do be aware; TwoOfFive is still a teenager (16?) and has no concept of most of the things you mentioned. It's entirely no surprise that he loved that video - it played right into his immaturity. Frankly, I'm a little concerned that the other engineers in this thread (who you might expect to be mature adults) share his perspective almost to a T.

edit: Including Dave, apparently 

I'm not sure an argument from authority is helping things. Just saying someone is younger and doesn't understand isn't enough. You'll need to prove the worth of that seniority with arguments that make sense. After all, there's plenty old geezers who've completely lost touch with reality.

TwoOfFive regularly displays a degree of maturity that ought to make a goodly number of his elders here feel ashamed. In this thread he's been making considered arguments and has demonstrated at least once that he's better and more widely read than his interlocutor. It's ironic that, in a discussion about social politics, someone doesn't recognise a term from the, arguably, most significant novel about social politics of the 20th century when it is used by a young lad.

Also it's significant that some are so hooked to their rather argumentative agenda that they haven't realised that TwoOfFour's position is much closer to their own than is the position of the majority here; probably because they haven't bothered to actually read what he has said, so hurried are they to get back to their next riposte.

[coppice]

I believe Professor Riley is working to make the world a better place. That's something we should all be doing.

Can you tell us what she said or did which led you to that conclusion?

I'm basing it on what she appears to care about in her statements and the body of her work, which includes the book Engineering and Social Justice (the preface of which anticipates the responses in this thread).

The preface to that book says nothing very radical. However, the body of the book promotes dictatorship, and more recent videos you can find on YouTube (the book is 10 years old) much more forcefuilly promote dictatorship. Is that what you want?

I don't have her book. Where does she promote dictatorship?

She keeps slipping between issues of equality of opportunity, which is a fine goal, and equality of outcome, which it something you can only achieve by dictate.

[klaff]

klaff, your response is appreciated, but do be aware; TwoOfFive is still a teenager (16?) and has no concept of most of the things you mentioned. It's entirely no surprise that he loved that video - it played right into his immaturity. Frankly, I'm a little concerned that the other engineers in this thread (who you might expect to be mature adults) share his perspective almost to a T.

edit: Including Dave, apparently 

I'm not sure an argument from authority is helping things. Just saying someone is younger and doesn't understand isn't enough. You'll need to prove the worth of that seniority with arguments that make sense. After all, there's plenty old geezers who've completely lost touch with reality.

TwoOfFive regularly displays a degree of maturity that ought to make a goodly number of his elders here feel ashamed. In this thread he's been making considered arguments and has demonstrated at least once that he's better and more widely read than his interlocutor. It's ironic that, in a discussion about social politics, someone doesn't recognise a term from the, arguably, most significant novel about social politics of the 20th century when it is used by a young lad.

Also it's significant that some are so hooked to their rather argumentative agenda that they haven't realised that TwoOfFour's position is much closer to their own than is the position of the majority here; probably because they haven't bothered to actually read what he has said, so hurried are they to get back to their next riposte.

Have another riposte from an interlocutor.

Wrongthink is not from 1984 (which I've read several times, once again last year). It's a term of the alt-right, and is a clue to TwoOfFive's online diet.

[Cerebus]

I have a heavy and full grasp at all concepts at play here, and it is honestly insulting that you dismiss my arguments as childish and invalid strictly due to my age.

I'm not dismissing them or you, and I hope you didn't really take it as an insult. I felt quite indignant about these issues when I was your age - "isn't the answer obvious? This professor should be fired for holding us back!" I'm simply acknowledging that like you, most students simply haven't had the experiences to develop any nuanced, evidence-based perspectives on these things beyond the extremely warped perspectives offered by YouTubers, who are free to recut and modify video or audio clips to suit whatever point they want while concealing the original intent.

Your postings here, I have seen, are quite mature and coherent; I hope you understand that. Any conversation that goes without any face-to-face contact risks a total misinterpretation of each other, so I pointed out your age in response to a reply to your comment that asked a lot of questions you probably aren't going to be able to answer meaningfully as you simply haven't seen those things IRL.

I suspect it is not your intent, but I can assure you that still sounds rather patronizing toward TwoOfFive.

[Howardlong]

Wrongthink ... It's a term of the alt-right

In your opinion.

[John B]

Lol! Wrongthink is an alt-right term?    

Apparently they got in their time machine and disseminated the word long before the concept of alt right emerged.

[klaff]

Wrongthink ... It's a term of the alt-right

In your opinion.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alt-right-has-a-word-for-its-own-ideology-wrongthink-2msd66frw

[Cerebus]

klaff, your response is appreciated, but do be aware; TwoOfFive is still a teenager (16?) and has no concept of most of the things you mentioned. It's entirely no surprise that he loved that video - it played right into his immaturity. Frankly, I'm a little concerned that the other engineers in this thread (who you might expect to be mature adults) share his perspective almost to a T.

edit: Including Dave, apparently 

I'm not sure an argument from authority is helping things. Just saying someone is younger and doesn't understand isn't enough. You'll need to prove the worth of that seniority with arguments that make sense. After all, there's plenty old geezers who've completely lost touch with reality.

TwoOfFive regularly displays a degree of maturity that ought to make a goodly number of his elders here feel ashamed. In this thread he's been making considered arguments and has demonstrated at least once that he's better and more widely read than his interlocutor. It's ironic that, in a discussion about social politics, someone doesn't recognise a term from the, arguably, most significant novel about social politics of the 20th century when it is used by a young lad.

Also it's significant that some are so hooked to their rather argumentative agenda that they haven't realised that TwoOfFour's position is much closer to their own than is the position of the majority here; probably because they haven't bothered to actually read what he has said, so hurried are they to get back to their next riposte.

Have another riposte from an interlocutor.

Wrongthink is not from 1984 (which I've read several times, once again last year). It's a term of the alt-right, and is a clue to TwoOfFive's online diet.

Does it matter whether it is actually in the text or not? It sounds like it's from 1984, and anybody who had read 1984 ought to immediately recognize that as the source or the inspiration and infer the intended meaning in an eyeblink.

I'll let the fact that you feel the need to pop up and say "Oh, yes I so have read 1984, lots of times, many readings" and "I graduated magna cum laude^*"  speak for itself.

^*I think this translates as "Big with a ladle", some honour associated with spending a lot of time in the refectory or something like that.

[Mr. Scram]

Have another riposte from an interlocutor.

Wrongthink is not from 1984 (which I've read several times, once again last year). It's a term of the alt-right, and is a clue to TwoOfFive's online diet.

It would help if people would actually make an argument, rather than attacking someone for their age, supposed associations and more. Strawman arguments only lead to nasty and pointless discussions.

[Howardlong]

Wrongthink ... It's a term of the alt-right

In your opinion.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alt-right-has-a-word-for-its-own-ideology-wrongthink-2msd66frw

You do realise that’s an opinion piece?

[I am a paying Times subscriber by the way]

[Bud]

This thread is total garbage spamming the forum. Think twice before rushing to post, let it rest.

[Ampera]

I have a heavy and full grasp at all concepts at play here, and it is honestly insulting that you dismiss my arguments as childish and invalid strictly due to my age.

I'm not dismissing them or you, and I hope you didn't really take it as an insult. I felt quite indignant about these issues when I was your age - "isn't the answer obvious? This professor should be fired for holding us back!" I'm simply acknowledging that like you, most students simply haven't had the experiences to develop any nuanced, evidence-based perspectives on these things beyond the extremely warped perspectives offered by YouTubers, who are free to recut and modify video or audio clips to suit whatever point they want while concealing the original intent.

Your postings here, I have seen, are quite mature and coherent; I hope you understand that. Any conversation that goes without any face-to-face contact risks a total misinterpretation of each other, so I pointed out your age in response to a reply to your comment that asked a lot of questions you probably aren't going to be able to answer meaningfully as you simply haven't seen those things IRL.

I have been able to comprehend and answer pretty much every single inquiry here. I understand the concepts. I don't think the teacher should be fired, in fact I would be immensely and strongly opposed to her losing her job over this, just like I would be against me losing my job over one of my own opinions. She is wrong in my opinion, and I was debating as to why.

Have another riposte from an interlocutor.

Wrongthink is not from 1984 (which I've read several times, once again last year). It's a term of the alt-right, and is a clue to TwoOfFive's online diet.

Wrongthink may not be from 1984, which is on part my bad. It's a term designed in the style of 1984's Newspeak, and is very similar to the term crimethink which is from 1984. Got my terminology mixed up. As for it being from the alt-right, I'm a person who holds social and economically leftist values, and I use it. The alt-right also use socks and, a most recent example, don't like stinky armpits. I use socks and don't like stinky armpits too. Alt-right has become a word used pretty much completely to yell at people with because they very slightly toe the conservative line. I have conservative friends, just like how I have liberal friends. I agree and disagree with them both, and use words not because I want to join their party and beat the shit out of minorities, but because I like the word, I think it fills a purpose, and because it probably originated from internet subculture anyways, like Pepe the Frog which started as a meme, continued to be a meme, was used by some conservatives, and then exploded into a massive hate symbol fit because someone used it to express an opinion.

This thread is total garbage spamming the forum. Think twice before rushing to post, let it rest.

Isn't this hypocritical?

As for your statement.

Yeah, pretty much. I enjoy shooting the shit about this sort of stuff though. If you don't like it, you don't need to read it.

[Mr. Scram]

This thread is total garbage spamming the forum. Think twice before rushing to post, let it rest.

I've tried arguing that earlier in this thread, but the smell of an unhealthy conversation is apparently too hard to resist.

[klaff]

Wrongthink may not be from 1984, which is on part my bad. It's a term designed in the style of 1984's Newspeak, and is very similar to the term crimethink which is from 1984. Got my terminology mixed up.

Hey TwoOfFive, I apologize for the alt-right labelling. Where I saw the term was on places like InfoWars (talking about Damore from Google) and I assumed you were lifting it from there or somewhere similar. My bad.