Author Topic: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...  (Read 8550 times)

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Offline magic

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2021, 07:24:27 am »
Like when he got a new PC, he wanted to know how we'd get his gmail over to the new PC. He was really worried about it. I said we don't have to move the messages because they are .. well ... look just trust me on this OK? I wasn't about to try to explain it because it would have been to no avail.
I have once been asked about the details of that apparent miracle by a tinfoil-hatter but didn't dare to answer :scared:

(Which is to say, most communications protocols people use are frankly garbage from a privacy standpoint).
 

Offline Miyuki

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2021, 07:26:42 am »
I work 'in IT', we've got professors, doctors, highly qualified engineers, people who speak to and advise governments etc.
...
I also have some experience with professors and so (governments  ::) )
And when mechanical engineers use computers it is terrible, local folders, the shared folders it is all one big mess
Don't know how nontechnical are, I expect it to be unbelievable worse
But still, it is surprising to see CAD persons have problems with handling computer
 

Offline magic

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2021, 07:35:53 am »
I have no problem with people who grew up in the past millennium and never caught up.
But kids that live glued up to their spyphones and never stop to consider where the data go, that's a different matter.

Even my mother understands basics of file storage and has over 1TB of downloaded junk stashed on her computer :D
 
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2021, 08:34:56 am »
There was a time before a directory tree. With smaller discs there was no need to have subdirectories.

The directory tree is also only one possibility to organize the data on a disc. Many of us are used to it, but there are alternatives like a more data-base form. Especially with SSDs do allow a more random access. In some aspects the file system is still from the times of magnetic tapes.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2021, 11:30:41 am »
Reminds me of my dad, he has no clue about directory structures and no matter how much I try to explain it to him he just can't figure it out.  The whole concept of "where did the file go" is a mystery to him.  He has a screensaver with photos that he adds to but in his mind, it only works with his camera and not his phone, because if he plugs his phone into the computer the pictures don't show up in the same place so the process of putting them in the screensaver folder is broken. 

Crazy to see even young people not grasping this concept though, but it comes to show just how bad this whole "make everything cloud based" society is. They just grew up without having a second thought as to where their data is.  Kind of scary. 

I'm the opposite I want to know exactly where my data is.  I don't like when programs start storing things like settings in some location I don't know. I want to be in full control, and make sure I am backing up the data correctly.

YES!!!... That's exactly how I feel !!   Computers are/were supposed to make it easy & friendly for even non-technical people, so they tried to use
friendly words like 'My', as in 'My Computer', and 'My Documents etc etc... Aargh!!  I HATE trying to explain to some people why/where there files actually went,
to places like... "C:\ProgramFiles\User\Fred-Bloggs\Local\Documents\MyPhotos\blaablaa", or "My Computer\My Documents\My Music" or what ever!!   :P
I KNOW why they TRY to do this, especially for multiple Users signing on to a PC.  But very few 'laymen' really understand!.

I've always taught my family/kids to simply create their OWN Directory/Subdirectories in the Drive/Partition of their choice, and structure it Simply, for all their
photos, music, letters etc. And to back up that one master directory when ever you need.  My 'Missus' has taken a long time to understand though...   :palm:
She has thousands of Embroidery files, that I find scattered everywhere, on multiple drives, even 'Recovery' partitions & Root Directories!!  She opens '.zip'
files, without contemplating/remembering where they are being extracted to!! (Sigh...)  So I build for her the likes of a Master Directory called "Embroidery"...
And off that, Sub-Directories like 'Butterflies', or 'Football', or 'Birds'/'Disney'/'lace' etc etc, and Sub-Directories off of those... She's finally 'getting' it !!   :-+
Diagonal of 1x1 square = Root-2. Ok.
Diagonal of 1x1x1 cube = Root-3 !!!  Beautiful !!
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2021, 11:39:29 am »
Even more unjustified bashing on young people for stupid stuff. The reason they don’t know it, if they don’t know it, is that nobody taught them.
How can you just never have been exposed to the physical concept of files and folders, even if you haven't ever heard of the virtual pendent?
Seriously, someone who doesn't know such stuff by the time they're in college should really reconsider if they have enough natural curiosity to enjoy an engineering career...
The chances of a young person these days having interacted with a filing cabinet are, frankly, vastly smaller than the chances of them having interacted with a computer directory structure!!

It was always a tenuous analogy anyway, since we don’t interact with paper the same way we do with computer data.

And besides, people are often extremely talented in one discipline and not in another, and engineering is no exception. Hell, I had an IT professor who’d literally written our textbook on management information systems, yet struggled to use PowerPoint on a daily basis. (I’ve never seen anyone before or since who always advanced slides by right clicking and then clicking “Next slide”!)

I once made $300 (nearly all for travel) to go plug in a pair of PC speakers for a guy. This guy was a brain surgeon. He could literally rewire your brain, but couldn’t plug in two cables.

I work 'in IT', we've got professors, doctors, highly qualified engineers, people who speak to and advise governments etc.

We're huge, wherevere you are in the world there's a really good chance you're relying on or are connected to a bit of our technology as you read this, if you're not right now then you probably have been or will be.
 
Some of the things I hear every week go along the lines of "I'm so stupid I don't understand how" or "I'm such an idiot when it comes to computers".

People  don't say that because they are stupid but because they are defending themselves against the kind of sneering, elitist attitudes being displayed in this thread.

Give your heads a wobble and think about how you'd feel if someone you were looking to for advice told you you're an idiot for not intuitively understanding something that you didn't need to know to do your job, don't care about or have never seen before and are completely alien to you.

Thank you, well said!

The user behavior you describe is called “learned helplessness”, and I 100% agree that elitist attitudes reinforce it.
 
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Online xrunner

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2021, 11:45:22 am »
Yep my neighbor is the same. I help him as much as I can with PC issues but there are concepts he hasn't grasped for years as I've kept explaining it over and over. Like when he got a new PC, he wanted to know how we'd get his gmail over to the new PC. He was really worried about it. I said we don't have to move the messages because they are .. well ... look just trust me on this OK? I wasn't about to try to explain it because it would have been to no avail.

The emails aren't on the PC in the first place, they're somewhere out in the world, and the PC is just a vehicle to take you to them. If you go out and buy a new car you don't have to find all new stores to go to, the same stores you visited with your old car are still there and the new car will take you to them the same way.

Uh-huh, yea. If so, then how can the emails appear on his PC if they are somewhere else? If they are "on" Google somewhere then how can I see them here? See you and I understand these things but he doesn't. I've been very patient over the years but I can only go so far.

Like this last week he has had a hearing problem and is going to get hearing aids. His hearing issue is the reverse of what I've ever known - the sounds from the outside world are too loud, not too weak. Anyway he went to the audiologist and is going to get a kit that will help the issue. He said they have an app that will work on an iPhone to allow a person to adjust the hearing aids and he wanted to know where to get a cheap iPhone. He owns an iPad which I got him into several years ago so he could watch his college games and do other things easily (another teaching foray ...). Anyway I told him, well why do you need an iPhone when you have an iPad?

He said because the lady said the app runs on an iPhone. I said I'll bet you $50 it will be just fine on the iPad. I guarantee you it uses Bluetooth and so it'll work on either one. Well lo and behold of course it is fine to run on an iPad. It's an apple app. He thought I was a genius (I am most certainly not). Then he wanted to get something that made repetitive "clicks" or "beeps" because that is the type of sound that irritates his hearing. He wanted to know if I had a metronome or anything that made loud clicks so he could take it to the audiologist and test the adjustments. I said why don't you get a metronome app for the iPad and use that? I never looked for that kind of app but I was certain they existed. Well what do you know - of course there are metronome apps - quite a few. See he doesn't think like we do. He can't seem to imagine such a solution even though to me that was the first thing I thought of.

I do my best but I know when to just tell him what to do and not try to explain beyond a certain point.

I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 

Offline Miyuki

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2021, 11:57:19 am »
There was a time before a directory tree. With smaller discs there was no need to have subdirectories.

The directory tree is also only one possibility to organize the data on a disc. Many of us are used to it, but there are alternatives like a more data-base form. Especially with SSDs do allow a more random access. In some aspects the file system is still from the times of magnetic tapes.
File system (folders and directories) is just a human readable presentation of data on block devices under it, folders are completely virtual concep 
All "modern" devices/systems use libraries (for images, music, and so on) and shove files to strangely named folder on filesystem
 

Offline ajb

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2021, 07:36:11 pm »
Despite being a user for about ten years now, she still has no concept of the physical location of files and directories on a disk but learned how to move her e-mails (together with the attachments) to different folders in Thunderbird.

This right here reflects a fundamental problem with the basic assumptions of this thread.  Files/folders/directories are NOT reflective of the "physical" location of data on disk.  A file "in" a given directory may be located anywhere on disk, even broken up into multiple bits spread across the whole thing.  Directory trees are just one method of logically organizing and locating data within a collection, and they are not inherently a better way of doing that than other methods such as a large searchable pool, or a set of tags, or whatever.  In fact some of those methods are far better suited to some workflows/use cases than directories.  A lot of us are used to directory trees because that's been the dominant abstraction provided to us, and we've had not choice but to use them for many years.  The fact that we find it so natural (to the point that we assume -- or at least our language implies -- that it reflects a fundamental physical reality of disk storage) is a reflection of our familiarity with it, not our intelligence. 

People who have come up in the age of google docs etc have had the advantage of other options when it comes to organizing and interacting with documents and media, and simply don't need to worry about the directory/folder abstraction as much as we had to.  If I want to find a particular photo of my orange cat in Google Photos, for example, I don't have to browse to the "cat" folder in my "photos" folder and then click on each file to see if it's the one I want.  I can simply type "orange cat" into the search box, and an incredible amount of machine learning technology instantly shows me all of the photos of that cat in a fast, easy to browse list of thumbnails.  It's night and day compared to the experience of just twenty years ago.  Sure it's not perfect and has some downsides, but why would the average person bother with manually sorting all of their photos into folders if it's so easy to find things WITHOUT doing that?

Even more unjustified bashing on young people for stupid stuff. The reason they don’t know it, if they don’t know it, is that nobody taught them.
How can you just never have been exposed to the physical concept of files and folders, even if you haven't ever heard of the virtual pendent?

It used to be that every office had tons of filing cabinets for all of the paper documents they needed to conduct business.  You might even have multiple employees, or even an entire department, dedicated to just dealing with files.  I remember my old doctor's office had a whole wall of cabinets for patient files.  That's not how things are anymore.  I still have a filing cabinet in my office, but like 1/4 of one drawer is old paper documents I haven't looked at in years, one drawer is for boxes of printable label stock, and the last drawer is where I keep my snacks.  Here again, a lot of us who came up in that earlier time, where we had to do everything on paper, and thus had to *organize* all of that paper, then experienced the shift to electronic documents, where there was a direct parallel between 'a document' on paper and 'a document' as a digital file, can easily mistake our familiarity with the abstraction and where it comes from for intelligence.  It's increasingly easy for a person to come up without ever needing to deal with enough paper to directly experience that parallel.  Besides, it's not even that good of a parallel these days.  Sure, a PDF is generally interchangeable, in terms of content and functionality, with a paper document, but not all data that we deal with is like that. 

Quote
Seriously, someone who doesn't know such stuff by the time they're in college should really reconsider if they have enough natural curiosity to enjoy an engineering career...

Get over yourself.  Not all STEM is engineering. Not all engineering is computer engineering.  You can't expect someone to be conversant in the various archaic abstractions of every other STEM discipline just because they're interested in one discipline. 
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2021, 07:50:47 pm »
Except you can use a local mail client with GMail and download messages so for someone who grew up using an email client with local storage it's really not a stupid question.

And I do, but the emails are still on the server, the email client just makes a local copy of them. It's like taking a photo of some landmarks and bringing the photos home with you. The landmarks are still there, you can buy a new camera and still go out and take photos of the same landmarks and look at them later.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2021, 07:54:43 pm »
The chances of a young person these days having interacted with a filing cabinet are, frankly, vastly smaller than the chances of them having interacted with a computer directory structure!!

Surely they've interacted with a cardboard box before though, or a plastic storage bin, or a closet, or a chest of drawers, or a backpack. They've used a desk at some point and probably had some pens and pencils or other tools. Heck even my modern iPhone has albums that photos are sorted into, they aren't all just in a big disorganized pile. The concept of nested containers is pretty hard to avoid unless a person is just completely lacking any sort of organizational skills, in which case they're going to struggle in any sort of engineering job.
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2021, 08:37:57 pm »
Despite being a user for about ten years now, she still has no concept of the physical location of files and directories on a disk but learned how to move her e-mails (together with the attachments) to different folders in Thunderbird.

This right here reflects a fundamental problem with the basic assumptions of this thread.  Files/folders/directories are NOT reflective of the "physical" location of data on disk.  A file "in" a given directory may be located anywhere on disk, even broken up into multiple bits spread across the whole thing.   
The location of the file and its fragmentation is not part of the problem. A file is still the lowest abstraction level of a coherent dataset that a user can interface on the context that I presented (and you suppressed) of a single user machine. Of course, "physical" is a simplification on my part since a file can be mapped to a physical drive, someone else's computer (the cloud or a mapped network), a stream, etc. but it works very well to illustrate to a beginner the function/necessity of such abstraction to exist.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2021, 08:41:44 pm »
YES!!!... That's exactly how I feel !!   Computers are/were supposed to make it easy & friendly for even non-technical people, so they tried to use
friendly words like 'My', as in 'My Computer', and 'My Documents etc etc... Aargh!!  I HATE trying to explain to some people why/where there files actually went,
to places like... "C:\ProgramFiles\User\Fred-Bloggs\Local\Documents\MyPhotos\blaablaa", or "My Computer\My Documents\My Music" or what ever!!   :P
I KNOW why they TRY to do this, especially for multiple Users signing on to a PC.  But very few 'laymen' really understand!. :

Then there was the "libraries" and the "breadcrumb" thing (and also now "Quick Access" in Windows 10) that interferes or gets in the way that I absolutely despise starting from Vista that most of the time tells me bugger all so I just remove it altogether and Classic shell takes care of the breadcrumb problem that causes me confusion with the arrows and the sizing for something suppose to be so simply displayed couldn't be more clearer.

I remember some customers in the past who believed they lost all their stuff when it was actually libraries feature (back over 10 years) that sometimes broke and didn't show anything in their "libraries" folder. My solution, remove/disable libraries from the registry so it don't show up again, show them what folders their stuff maybe stored in, show hidden and operating system files to see everything, untick "hide extensions for file types", disable breadcrumbs so they can see exactly where the folder is easily (that would have given them a clue where their stuff was if it shown in the address bar instead "->libraries->"),  and set defaults to detail view and arrange the field to something like, name type, size, created, modified and in search replace "folder" to "path".

Quite a few of them only after they had a problem like that seem to take things more seriously, they brought backup drives and what they believe was so difficult before only took a couple of seconds when I showed them manually how to copy stuff over and working a simple backup script.

Very simple stuff but maybe they could see what they were doing for the first time when setting the preferences to the above.

I am thinking over simplified and dumbed down can lead to this problem
 
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Offline CJay

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2021, 09:53:07 pm »
Except you can use a local mail client with GMail and download messages so for someone who grew up using an email client with local storage it's really not a stupid question.

And I do, but the emails are still on the server, the email client just makes a local copy of them. It's like taking a photo of some landmarks and bringing the photos home with you. The landmarks are still there, you can buy a new camera and still go out and take photos of the same landmarks and look at them later.
No, they weren't usually left on the server, they were deleted when downloaded, storage used to be expensive. You can still have your email client delete them.

 
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Offline TERRA Operative

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2021, 04:32:38 am »
Reminds me of my dad, he has no clue about directory structures and no matter how much I try to explain it to him he just can't figure it out.  The whole concept of "where did the file go" is a mystery to him. 

Yep my neighbor is the same. I help him as much as I can with PC issues but there are concepts he hasn't grasped for years as I've kept explaining it over and over. Like when he got a new PC, he wanted to know how we'd get his gmail over to the new PC. He was really worried about it. I said we don't have to move the messages because they are .. well ... look just trust me on this OK? I wasn't about to try to explain it because it would have been to no avail.

He grew up in a different time and just can't grasp many things about computers and files. Some of the questions he asks me make me shudder, because I am here to answer them but I think about all the other people who don't have a trusted person to help them. This is how scammers succeed I guess.

Maybe try explaining to him that his emails are stored securely on the internet kind of like a PO box.
Even though he changes address (ie. gets a new computer) the computer can still access the PO box from the new address just like from the old address.
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2021, 05:59:57 am »
(I even heard that some of them claims that a kilobyte is 1000 bytes  :-DD )

It is when you ask the hard drive manufacturers.

I know. They did it (way back) to get larger numbers, once all did it, no benefit. Its just plain stupid (most words needs a context, MASTER and SLAVE as well as KILO means something different depending on the context)

It all goes back to "computer people" ignoring the very long standing convention that "kilo' means 1000 times whatever the base quantity is, without any need of a "context".

Perhaps they should have invented a different word for "1024 bytes"----- sloppy word usage comes back to "bite us on the bum",  even if it is many years later.

Another perfectly good word appropriated from Electronics is "bandwidth".
The true meaning is the amount of spectral space occupied by a signal, or the same thing for a device required to carry such signals.

Because "computer people" use it in a completely different way, (perhaps describable as "virtual bandwidth") which has now captured the mainstream, we now have to use monstrously contorted sentences like the previous one to replace a simple term.
 

Offline magic

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2021, 06:16:35 am »
Another perfectly good word appropriated from Electronics is "bandwidth".
The true meaning is the amount of spectral space occupied by a signal, or the same thing for a device required to carry such signals.

Because "computer people" use it in a completely different way, (perhaps describable as "virtual bandwidth") which has now captured the mainstream, we now have to use monstrously contorted sentences like the previous one to replace a simple term.
RF engineers still use "bandwidth" without worrying what computer nerds would think :-//
 
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Offline MrMobodies

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2021, 06:50:41 am »
Quote
The primary issue is that the code researchers write, run at the command line, needs to be told exactly how to access the files it’s working with — it can’t search for those files on its own. Some programming languages have search functions, but they’re difficult to implement and not commonly used. It’s in the programming lessons where STEM professors, across fields, are encountering  problems

A bit confused by this statement, does this mean that it is just "Stem professors" experiencing this issue or do they mean everyone else?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 06:52:36 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline magic

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2021, 07:12:40 am »
Quote
It’s in the programming lessons where STEM professors, across fields, are encountering  problems.
FTFY.
It means that it's not a problem to STEM professors until it comes to teaching the "kids these days" how to operate scientific software.
 
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2021, 08:05:22 am »
Another perfectly good word appropriated from Electronics is "bandwidth".
The true meaning is the amount of spectral space occupied by a signal, or the same thing for a device required to carry such signals.

Because "computer people" use it in a completely different way, (perhaps describable as "virtual bandwidth") which has now captured the mainstream, we now have to use monstrously contorted sentences like the previous one to replace a simple term.
RF engineers still use "bandwidth" without worrying what computer nerds would think :-//
I know, but it still bugs me! >:(
 

Offline tooki

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2021, 08:08:25 am »
The chances of a young person these days having interacted with a filing cabinet are, frankly, vastly smaller than the chances of them having interacted with a computer directory structure!!

Surely they've interacted with a cardboard box before though, or a plastic storage bin, or a closet, or a chest of drawers, or a backpack. They've used a desk at some point and probably had some pens and pencils or other tools. Heck even my modern iPhone has albums that photos are sorted into, they aren't all just in a big disorganized pile. The concept of nested containers is pretty hard to avoid unless a person is just completely lacking any sort of organizational skills, in which case they're going to struggle in any sort of engineering job.
iPhone albums are exactly not a good example of nested file storage, since they’re neither nested, nor do they reflect how physical objects exist in only one place at a time. (And the analogy of an album containing prints, while the library holds negatives, is even less helpful to someone who’s never seen photographic film.)

While I don’t disagree that difficulty in understanding nested storage isn’t likely to coincide with a good engineering mind, they are, strictly speaking, orthogonal to each other. Many brilliant engineers fall under the “idiot savant” category of people whose mental abilities have been entirely focused on one specialty to the detriment of everything else.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2021, 08:10:08 am »
(I even heard that some of them claims that a kilobyte is 1000 bytes  :-DD )

It is when you ask the hard drive manufacturers.

I know. They did it (way back) to get larger numbers, once all did it, no benefit. Its just plain stupid (most words needs a context, MASTER and SLAVE as well as KILO means something different depending on the context)

It all goes back to "computer people" ignoring the very long standing convention that "kilo' means 1000 times whatever the base quantity is, without any need of a "context".

Perhaps they should have invented a different word for "1024 bytes"----- sloppy word usage comes back to "bite us on the bum",  even if it is many years later.
You mean like the kibibyte, mebibyte, gibibyte, etc? Yeah, those caught on like wildfire! ;)
 

Online Circlotron

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2021, 09:22:32 am »
The paths to my files all contain forward slashes.
None of that backslash rubbish!
 
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Offline KarelTopic starter

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2021, 10:14:07 am »
The paths to my files all contain forward slashes.
None of that backslash rubbish!

Also, all paths on my systems start with a forward slash...
 

Offline james_s

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2021, 07:27:17 pm »
No, they weren't usually left on the server, they were deleted when downloaded, storage used to be expensive. You can still have your email client delete them.

If you use POP3 yes, but I've used IMAP since ~2002 which leaves a copy on the server and downloads a local copy. Storage for emails has never been an issue in as long as I've been using email, back in the day they were simple text, hundreds of emails would fit on a floppy disk. You *can* have your email client delete them from the server, but that isn't typically how it works anymore and I see few reasons for doing so.
 


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