Author Topic: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...  (Read 8541 times)

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Offline KarelTopic starter

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File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« on: September 30, 2021, 01:55:34 pm »
New college students not understanding nested folders!

"A generation that grew up with Google is forcing professors to rethink their lesson plans"

https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-directory-structure-education-gen-z
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2021, 02:07:54 pm »
They probably don't know what the "save" icon on many programs is either. Like right now I'm using Fusion 360, and to save a file you must click on an icon of a 3.5" floppy disk. A couple of years ago I asked my niece and nephew what that symbol was (on another program), they didn't know. I had brought over a real 3.5" floppy disk and showed it to them. They had no clue what it was for.
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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2021, 02:17:06 pm »
To be fair the logo is often a bit small and stylised. I grew up with floppies and still didn't make the connection immediately.
 

Offline cgroen

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2021, 02:36:20 pm »
Well if the new generation can be offended by MOSI and MISO meaning MASTER and SLAVE, no wonder they don't know folders. Maybe they should get their priorities straight  :popcorn:
(I even heard that some of them claims that a kilobyte is 1000 bytes  :-DD )
 

Offline Benta

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2021, 03:51:13 pm »
(I even heard that some of them claims that a kilobyte is 1000 bytes  :-DD )

It is when you ask the hard drive manufacturers.
 

Offline cgroen

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2021, 04:10:11 pm »
(I even heard that some of them claims that a kilobyte is 1000 bytes  :-DD )

It is when you ask the hard drive manufacturers.

I know. They did it (way back) to get larger numbers, once all did it, no benefit. Its just plain stupid (most words needs a context, MASTER and SLAVE as well as KILO means something different depending on the context)
 

Offline m98

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2021, 05:24:21 pm »
An effect of those students only using Chromebooks and Smartphones? But even there you find directory structures everywhere, be it in cloud drives, photo management, or the native file structure.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2021, 05:54:59 pm »
Yeah the file save icon is outmoded.  But it is no more obscure than many other icons.  You just have to learn that the image means save.  I think the real driver of the issue described in the article is that search works so well and storage is so cheap that many find heap storage works for them.  It avoids the problem of defining an organization structure and then doing filing work.  And at least part of the problem has been around since these students were dreams in their parents future.  Remember the confusion when MS introduced the documents, photos and other folders as part of a standard structure.  Many peoples smallest organizational unit was Drive C:
 

Online magic

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2021, 07:09:16 pm »
you find directory structures everywhere, be it in cloud drives, photo management
What's a "directory structures", my instagram doesn't seem to have that one :-//

Maybe they should get their priorities straight
Oh sweaty, not sure if you realize how problematic this is. Please use "get their priorities linear" instead.
 
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Offline cgroen

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2021, 07:10:50 pm »
you find directory structures everywhere, be it in cloud drives, photo management
What's a "directory structures", my instagram doesn't seem to have that one :-//

Maybe they should get their priorities straight
Oh sweaty, not sure if you realize how problematic that one is. Please use "get their priorities linear" instead.

Damn, I knew I would end up in trouble with that  :-DD
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2021, 07:52:42 pm »
I had a few Windows Vista customers over a decade ago who thought they lost all their work.

All it turned out to be the "Libraries" features was broken and not showing their documents as they expected.

I always disabled the libraries feature and disable breadcrumbs as I find it is important to not exactly where things are on the file system.

Starting from Vista I find  the search defaults don't help where they put "folder" which shows the folder name first putting the path afterwards but the folder name seems to be in the way (confuses me a little when they maybe many folders in the same name) so I change that to path.

Quote
The high school students Garland works with largely haven’t encountered directory structure unless they’ve taken upper-level STEM courses :bullshit:.

I remembered a college I walked out of 20 years ago. I wasn't happy with the curriculum and the attitude that not many people pass the course and so on. I think it might of been some NVQ 2 or 3 "computing course" and it was only 2 hours one day a week where the journey getting there took longer. The other students who decided to attend the course came to me with a lengthy helpdesk style question within the first two weeks of starting there. It was to do with modems. Some of them haven't seen a modem before and weren't shown one during their lesson but I collect stuff so I showed them some modems I got down the bootsale. Nothing complicated, an RJ11 style socket to connect to the phone line and some had another RJ11 socket to connect like an LJU adapter so you can plug a phone into it if you wanted to but the few of the older ISA ones I had in my collection did had LJU sockets on them.

When I narrowed the question down, check your connections that you plugged the telephone line in the right socket if there are two RJ11 sockets and I have seen them have symbols in the back marking them for which one is for the line and phone. They were told it was a "real life question" of a help desk helping a customer on the phone about resolving no internet connectivity. I didn't find it clear or descriptive and nothing much about the equipment to determine the above as a possibility.

They got that one right in the end which they were pleased about but a couple months later they got bored and gradually bunked it off.

That's nothing to be pleased about when learning without understanding.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 08:26:58 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2021, 09:00:54 pm »
Even more unjustified bashing on young people for stupid stuff. The reason they don’t know it, if they don’t know it, is that nobody taught them. Older generations didn’t “just know it” either. Nobody knew how to use computers, so everyone was taught somehow. We incorrectly assume that by virtue of growing up with them around that kids will know how to use computers, and that’s just not true. Older people who weren’t taught also don’t know how to use them. I’ve worked as a computer tech and salesperson before, and customers who store all their files on the desktop go back to the earliest days of GUI computers.

The only reason we notice it now is because these days, using computers is absolutely inescapable; 20-30 years ago one could still choose to do things the old way.
 

Online magic

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2021, 09:23:32 pm »
Those "children" are engineering students, dude. Have been using computers for a decade.

Quote
She asked each student where they’d saved their project. Could they be on the desktop? Perhaps in the shared drive? But over and over, she was met with confusion. “What are you talking about?” multiple students inquired. Not only did they not know where their files were saved — they didn’t understand the question.
:-DD

If I could go back in time to strangle to death one historic figure of my choice in his crib, it wouldn't be Hitler or Trotsky but Steve Jobs.
 

Offline m98

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2021, 10:26:21 pm »
Even more unjustified bashing on young people for stupid stuff. The reason they don’t know it, if they don’t know it, is that nobody taught them.
How can you just never have been exposed to the physical concept of files and folders, even if you haven't ever heard of the virtual pendent?
Seriously, someone who doesn't know such stuff by the time they're in college should really reconsider if they have enough natural curiosity to enjoy an engineering career...
 
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2021, 01:38:25 am »
Reminds me of my dad, he has no clue about directory structures and no matter how much I try to explain it to him he just can't figure it out.  The whole concept of "where did the file go" is a mystery to him.  He has a screensaver with photos that he adds to but in his mind, it only works with his camera and not his phone, because if he plugs his phone into the computer the pictures don't show up in the same place so the process of putting them in the screensaver folder is broken. 

Crazy to see even young people not grasping this concept though, but it comes to show just how bad this whole "make everything cloud based" society is. They just grew up without having a second thought as to where their data is.  Kind of scary. 

I'm the opposite I want to know exactly where my data is.  I don't like when programs start storing things like settings in some location I don't know. I want to be in full control, and make sure I am backing up the data correctly.
 
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Offline xrunner

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2021, 01:49:15 am »
Reminds me of my dad, he has no clue about directory structures and no matter how much I try to explain it to him he just can't figure it out.  The whole concept of "where did the file go" is a mystery to him. 

Yep my neighbor is the same. I help him as much as I can with PC issues but there are concepts he hasn't grasped for years as I've kept explaining it over and over. Like when he got a new PC, he wanted to know how we'd get his gmail over to the new PC. He was really worried about it. I said we don't have to move the messages because they are .. well ... look just trust me on this OK? I wasn't about to try to explain it because it would have been to no avail.

He grew up in a different time and just can't grasp many things about computers and files. Some of the questions he asks me make me shudder, because I am here to answer them but I think about all the other people who don't have a trusted person to help them. This is how scammers succeed I guess.
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2021, 01:58:07 am »
Lol that reminds me of panicked calls I've had before working help desk.  "I accidentally deleted Google!"  :-DD

 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2021, 02:06:35 am »
To be fair, particularly with any user generated files (documents, photos, videos, whatever), a directory structure isn't necessarily the best way of doing things if your OS/filesystem can keep an indexed database of all the contents and you could assign tags and search it rapidly using the powerful computers we have at our disposal now.

A directory structure  offloads the work of searching and categorising to the user, but is necessarily restrictive in terms of classification (unless you get into symlinking a lot).  But documents can be usefully classified in many ways.  Do you put Joe Blogg's Fishing Licence Application into the Bloggs folder, the Fishing Licence folder, or the Pending Applications folder.

Most people only create documents where dumping them all in the same place and just searching for them is a perfectly useful, less work, and more flexible solution in the modern world.

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2021, 02:48:46 am »
To be fair, particularly with any user generated files (documents, photos, videos, whatever), a directory structure isn't necessarily the best way of doing things if your OS/filesystem can keep an indexed database of all the contents and you could assign tags and search it rapidly using the powerful computers we have at our disposal now.
Indeed. The files and programs tend to be found via the "search" button in your device (with the appropriate tracking being sent to the mothership, of course!)

A directory structure  offloads the work of searching and categorising to the user, but is necessarily restrictive in terms of classification (unless you get into symlinking a lot).  But documents can be usefully classified in many ways.  Do you put Joe Blogg's Fishing Licence Application into the Bloggs folder, the Fishing Licence folder, or the Pending Applications folder.
I don't think it is very restrictive, but it surely requires one to think about an organizational system that works for him/her. My mother, for example, absolutely despised computers up to a very late stage in her life (early 60's) but had to cave in so she could get on with her interests. Despite being a user for about ten years now, she still has no concept of the physical location of files and directories on a disk but learned how to move her e-mails (together with the attachments) to different folders in Thunderbird. Although this abstraction works for her while within the Thunderbird application, she has a mental disconnect to remember or understand what happened when an attachment was saved to the disk, regardless of how many times I explained (and yes, I am a very thorough and patient teacher). A younger user has the same disconnect happening.   

Even the naming convention brings you back to a time where people actually used physical File cabinets and directory reference books to find things.

Most people only create documents where dumping them all in the same place and just searching for them is a perfectly useful, less work, and more flexible solution in the modern world.
And not only that, but documents, photos, etc. tend to be very ephemeral as they usually need to last on a device just enough to be "shared" with another app (Instagram, Facebook, Tiktok, etc.)
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2021, 04:36:28 am »
I find structured directories very useful.  My file system is large enough that a search through all of it is not fast. The structure allows me to narrow the range before using search functions.   But I also recognize that the organization is idiosyncratic and would not help others.  I had this concept forcibly demonstrated to me when I inherited a project contained on a Unix workstation.  The originator was no longer accessible without divine help, and he had a complex structure made more obscure by massive use of aliases.  There were a huge number of paths through the tree.  I never did fully understand his intent, or find everything that would have been useful.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2021, 04:44:36 am »
Directory structures are just innately logical, I cannot even comprehend how someone could have difficulty with it. I have separate rooms in my house, within those rooms I have various pieces of furniture and built in storage like closets. Within those pieces of furniture and closets I have boxes, bags, folders, and other containers. Within those various containers I have other objects.

Do kids these days live in a big empty room and just throw all of their possessions into one big pile?

And these are engineering students, not artists or language majors, sorry but I'm going to judge them more harshly and expect them to figure out stuff like this without asking the professor with help. If growing up with Google is the problem, they should know how to ask Google. If they cannot even figure this out then how can they be expected to solve difficult problems in their job and why should I consider hiring them?
 

Offline james_s

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2021, 04:51:13 am »
Yep my neighbor is the same. I help him as much as I can with PC issues but there are concepts he hasn't grasped for years as I've kept explaining it over and over. Like when he got a new PC, he wanted to know how we'd get his gmail over to the new PC. He was really worried about it. I said we don't have to move the messages because they are .. well ... look just trust me on this OK? I wasn't about to try to explain it because it would have been to no avail.

The emails aren't on the PC in the first place, they're somewhere out in the world, and the PC is just a vehicle to take you to them. If you go out and buy a new car you don't have to find all new stores to go to, the same stores you visited with your old car are still there and the new car will take you to them the same way.
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2021, 04:56:21 am »
Seriously, someone who doesn't know such stuff by the time they're in college should really reconsider if they have enough natural curiosity to enjoy an engineering career...

When I was about 10 I had an Atari STE and that had a file system that you couldn't help not notice especially with the non auto boot floppy discs where you'd just manually run the .prg files and I found it all quite basic and straight forward.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 04:58:21 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline CJay

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2021, 06:26:28 am »
Yep my neighbor is the same. I help him as much as I can with PC issues but there are concepts he hasn't grasped for years as I've kept explaining it over and over. Like when he got a new PC, he wanted to know how we'd get his gmail over to the new PC. He was really worried about it. I said we don't have to move the messages because they are .. well ... look just trust me on this OK? I wasn't about to try to explain it because it would have been to no avail.

The emails aren't on the PC in the first place, they're somewhere out in the world, and the PC is just a vehicle to take you to them. If you go out and buy a new car you don't have to find all new stores to go to, the same stores you visited with your old car are still there and the new car will take you to them the same way.

Except you can use a local mail client with GMail and download messages so for someone who grew up using an email client with local storage it's really not a stupid question.
 
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Offline CJay

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Re: File not found - Please tell me this is a joke...
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2021, 06:38:16 am »
I work 'in IT', we've got professors, doctors, highly qualified engineers, people who speak to and advise governments etc.

We're huge, wherevere you are in the world there's a really good chance you're relying on or are connected to a bit of our technology as you read this, if you're not right now then you probably have been or will be.
 
Some of the things I hear every week go along the lines of "I'm so stupid I don't understand how" or "I'm such an idiot when it comes to computers".

People  don't say that because they are stupid but because they are defending themselves against the kind of sneering, elitist attitudes being displayed in this thread.

Give your heads a wobble and think about how you'd feel if someone you were looking to for advice told you you're an idiot for not intuitively understanding something that you didn't need to know to do your job, don't care about or have never seen before and are completely alien to you.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 06:43:02 am by CJay »
 
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