First Tesla Autopilot death

[XOIIO]

Elon Musk is a PIECE OF SHIT!

And what have you done with your life?

[bitseeker]

Speaking of aircraft, I'm thankful that flying cars for everyone is not a reality. It's scary enough what happens out there in only two dimensions.

More dimensions are are actually easier to avoid collisions.

Not the way a lot of people drive. It's more ways for them to get into trouble.

[chris_leyson]

It's disabled when the vehicle is in motion, but there might be ways to hack it.

You're right man, it's probably still very simple to hack car electronics and there are companies, many of them Chinese, that sell after market display drivers that let you drive your NAV screen from a video source. I should know I've designed hardware for this sort of stuff.

BMW use CAN bus everywhere, they may give it different names like I-bus or I-drive for example in the 7 series, but it's easy to hack and intercept. NAV displays are driven SERDES again very easy to intercept. In the BMW Mini you just need to cut one wire to enable video on the NAV screen when it's in motion, you could buy an after market box to do as well, yep I designed that as well, probably the worlds most pointless PCB with random components like a few resistors and diodes just to make it look like electronics. I wonder if the PCB prototyping company still got the Gerbers for that

In the context of electronics, car manufacturers are really stupid, is it COTS hardware or COTS designers, who knows. They do it as cheap as they can and don't even consider security. I'm not having a rant at Tesla but I know BMW havn't got a clue about electroics and security.

[SkyMaster]

Correct me if I'm wrong -

- but as I understand it, the requirements of an autopilot in an aircraft are extremely different to those of an autonomous car.  Even with a flight director engaged, I'm not aware of any collision avoidance actions an aircraft's autopilot can take.  It just follows set altitude, speed and direction objectives, trimming the aircraft when it senses it is travelling outside the defined parameters.

A car travelling on a road is a far more challenging exercise.

You are correct, an aircraft autopilot "simply" follow the flight plan that was previously entered into the FMS (Flight Management System).

In a light aircraft, a simpler autopilot will just follow a heading and maintain the altitude.

There is no collision avoidance of any sort.

[bitseeker]

Yep, they still live up to their title, Pilot in Command.

[firewalker]

It seems to me like a classic case of PEBCAK.

Alexander.

[sokoloff]

Correct me if I'm wrong -

- but as I understand it, the requirements of an autopilot in an aircraft are extremely different to those of an autonomous car.  Even with a flight director engaged, I'm not aware of any collision avoidance actions an aircraft's autopilot can take.  It just follows set altitude, speed and direction objectives, trimming the aircraft when it senses it is travelling outside the defined parameters.

I'm pretty sure the A380 can respond to resolution advisories (RAs) on autopilot.

[thm_w]

I tend to see it the other way around: the less you need to concentrate on controlling the car the more you can concentrate on the other traffic.

The actuaries in our insurance companies disagree.  It cost more to insure an automatic car here, as they are statistically more lightly to have an accident.

Any citation for that?
All I could find is a study showing automatic has improvement in older drivers, but no difference for younger drivers:

In the older group, driving the automatic transmission car improved their driving behaviour regarding the number of driving errors and during the turning left-task (Cohen’s d = 0.60), compared with when they drove the manual transmission car. However, the car with automatic transmission did not affect the driving behaviour for the younger group, except for the turning left-task (Cohen’s d = 0.67).

http://casr.adelaide.edu.au/rsr/RSR2011/2APaper%20130%20Falkmer.pdf

[Delta]

Do Tesla actually market this option as an "AutoPilot" system?  (As opposed to Advanced Cruise Control or somesuch...)

[bitseeker]

See second heading, "Autopilot":

https://www.teslamotors.com/models

[cimmo]

I love  the way EVERYONE is jumping on the bandwagon here and BLAMING THE VICTIM.
This crash was not caused by the Tesla driver or Elon Musk and his engineers.
There WAS a human that made a very bad decision that day - the truck driver turning across oncoming traffic.
I fail to see how this crash (not an accident) could have happened if this truck driver had followed the rules of the road and given way to oncoming traffic.

If the vehicle that the truck driver drove in front of to cause this crash was any other car than a Tesla (and I see no reason to believe this outcome couldn't have happened in a manually operated vehicle), we wouldn't be having this conversation and everyone would have just said "stupid truck driver, I hope he gets what he deserves".
Legally, there is a responsible party, can we please remember that salient fact?

[Delta]

I love  the way EVERYONE is jumping on the bandwagon here and BLAMING THE VICTIM.
This crash was not caused by the Tesla driver or Elon Musk and his engineers.
There WAS a human that made a very bad decision that day - the truck driver turning across oncoming traffic.
I fail to see how this crash (not an accident) could have happened if this truck driver had followed the rules of the road and given way to oncoming traffic.
Can we please remember that salient fact?

There is also the small matter of the victim watching a DVD whilst driving....

[fubar.gr]

Another autopilot accident?

http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2016/07/05/southfield-art-gallery-owner-survives-tesla-crash/86712884/

In his crash report, Vukovich stated that Scaglione's car was traveling east near mile marker 160, about 5 p.m. when it hit a guard rail "off the right side of the roadway. It then crossed over the eastbound lanes and hit the concrete median."
After that, the Tesla Model X rolled onto its roof and came to rest in the middle eastbound lane.

[cimmo]

I love  the way EVERYONE is jumping on the bandwagon here and BLAMING THE VICTIM.
This crash was not caused by the Tesla driver or Elon Musk and his engineers.
There WAS a human that made a very bad decision that day - the truck driver turning across oncoming traffic.
I fail to see how this crash (not an accident) could have happened if this truck driver had followed the rules of the road and given way to oncoming traffic.
Can we please remember that salient fact?

There is also the small matter of the victim watching a DVD whilst driving....

That has yet to be proven beyond doubt - despite so-called "news" articles.
Has anyone considered the possibility that the audio allegedly heard was an AUDIOBOOK?

Nevertheless, this does NOT absolve the ultimate cause - the truck driver.
Why is no one asking the question as to whether or not the truck driver was distracted? Clearly the truck driver did NOT have the sun in his eyes, so why did he fail to see the Tesla?

[edavid]

I love  the way EVERYONE is jumping on the bandwagon here and BLAMING THE VICTIM.
This crash was not caused by the Tesla driver or Elon Musk and his engineers.
There WAS a human that made a very bad decision that day - the truck driver turning across oncoming traffic.
I fail to see how this crash (not an accident) could have happened if this truck driver had followed the rules of the road and given way to oncoming traffic.

I don't think it's that simple.

Was the Tesla driver observing the speed limit?  (The truck driver claimed that the car was speeding.)

Could the truck driver even see the Tesla when he began his turn?

[zapta]

I love  the way EVERYONE is jumping on the bandwagon here and BLAMING THE VICTIM.
This crash was not caused by the Tesla driver or Elon Musk and his engineers.
There WAS a human that made a very bad decision that day - the truck driver turning across oncoming traffic.
I fail to see how this crash (not an accident) could have happened if this truck driver had followed the rules of the road and given way to oncoming traffic.
Can we please remember that salient fact?

There is also the small matter of the victim watching a DVD whilst driving....

And the system doesn't alert him that something is wrong. 

Products that require driver continuous attention should not be called driverless car or auto pilot, it creates over expectations. Lane Assistant or something like that would be a safer name.

[cimmo]

I love  the way EVERYONE is jumping on the bandwagon here and BLAMING THE VICTIM.
This crash was not caused by the Tesla driver or Elon Musk and his engineers.
There WAS a human that made a very bad decision that day - the truck driver turning across oncoming traffic.
I fail to see how this crash (not an accident) could have happened if this truck driver had followed the rules of the road and given way to oncoming traffic.

I don't think it's that simple.

Was the Tesla driver observing the speed limit?  (The truck driver claimed that the car was speeding.)

Could the truck driver even see the Tesla when he began his turn?

Of course the truck driver is going to make specious claims - he knows he killed someone and wants to deflect the blame away from him.
And the media is fuelling that speculation - which simply would not happen if this vehicle wasn't a Tesla.

This truck driver is NOT squeaky clean:
"Baressi (the truck driver) is the owner of Okemah Express, a trucking company with one truck and one driver, himself. Federal records don't identify drivers by name, but they show Okemah and its driver were cited for seven violations during four traffic stops over the past two years. The most serious violation was in January when a Virginia state inspector ordered the driver off the road for being on duty more than the legal limit of 14 hours in one day. The driver was also cited for ignoring a traffic-control device in March and an improper lane change in December. An inspection last year found the truck's tires were going bald."

Some random assessment of the crash location - and based on google street view, I concur:
"That road looks as flat as any with AT LEAST 1/2 mile of clear visibility. So assuming the Tesla was driving 80MPH and 1/4 mile out, the truck would have at least 11.25 seconds to cross the traffic lanes. Assuming 90MPH, 10.0 seconds.
Driving home yesterday, I watched a couple trucks make turns at traffic lights (so not exactly the same, but timing should be similar) and most made the turn in about 5 seconds. So assuming the truck would take 5 seconds after entering the oncoming traffic lanes to get to the point of being in front of the Tesla, I would expect the Tesla was under 1/8th mile of the intersection and most definitely would have been visible from the truck."

So why did the truck driver claim on video that he  never even saw the Telsa?
Was the truck driver driving while distracted - or fatigued?
Or did he actually see the Tesla, but was fed up waiting for the road to clear? Was he in a hurry and simply asserted his size assuming he'd force the Tesla driver to slow down and let him cross?
I hope this truck driver is charged with and convicted of vehicular manslaughter.

[rollatorwieltje]

I love  the way EVERYONE is jumping on the bandwagon here and BLAMING THE VICTIM.
This crash was not caused by the Tesla driver or Elon Musk and his engineers.
There WAS a human that made a very bad decision that day - the truck driver turning across oncoming traffic.
I fail to see how this crash (not an accident) could have happened if this truck driver had followed the rules of the road and given way to oncoming traffic.

If the vehicle that the truck driver drove in front of to cause this crash was any other car than a Tesla (and I see no reason to believe this outcome couldn't have happened in a manually operated vehicle), we wouldn't be having this conversation and everyone would have just said "stupid truck driver, I hope he gets what he deserves".
Legally, there is a responsible party, can we please remember that salient fact?

The thing is, part of surviving in traffic is in your own hands as well. The accident could have been unavoidable by the Tesla driver, but his death probably was, if only he hit the brakes. The thing people are upset about is that the Tesla driver litterally made no attept at all to avoid the collision. The trailer was mis-identified by the car as an overhead sign, so it must have been quite far into the crossing and visible to the Tesla driver, yet he never touched the brake at all.

Being in the right is useless when you're dead.

[cimmo]

Being in the right is useless when you're dead.

Would you say that to a murder victim's family?

Also, remember that we apparently only have one living witness to this event - the guy that caused it.
Are we going to take what he says as being absolutely true?
Someone who is clearly in the wrong and is likely to lose his business? And perhaps even face some prison time?

How do we know that he didn't turn directly in front of the Tesla and yet the Tesla driver DID stand on the brakes - the antiskid would have prevented any skid marks - but the distance and time available to him was simply insufficient to reduce the speed enough to avoid a fatal collision? From what I've read it's just speculation that the Tesla driver was completely passive in this event - do we actually know that for sure? Do we have some data from the Tesla's onboard electronics that tell the real story?
If so, I'd like a link (and not to media speculation).

How about we wait a few months for the actual investigation to sift through all this media hyped bullshit?

[rollatorwieltje]

Being in the right is useless when you're dead.

Would you say that to a murder victim's family?

Yes. You won't get the person back. There's no sensible compensation for a death. In most places you'll have right to some temporary income loss compensation, that's about it. In the best case you'll maybe get a million of your currency, does that make you feel happy again? Doubt it.

Also, remember that we apparently only have one living witness to this event - the guy that caused it.
Are we going to take what he says as being absolutely true?
Someone who is clearly in the wrong and is likely to lose his business? And perhaps even face some prison time?

How do we know that he didn't turn directly in front of the Tesla and yet the Tesla driver DID stand on the brakes - the antiskid would have prevented any skid marks - but the distance and time available to him was simply insufficient to reduce the speed enough to avoid a fatal collision? From what I've read it's just speculation that the Tesla driver was completely passive in this event - do we actually know that for sure? Do we have some data from the Tesla's onboard electronics that tell the real story?
If so, I'd like a link (and not to media speculation).

How about we wait a few months for the actual investigation to sift through all this media hyped bullshit?

It's literally on the Tesla website: https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss

Neither Autopilot nor the driver noticed the white side of the tractor trailer against a brightly lit sky, so the brake was not applied.

and

Had the Model S impacted the front or rear of the trailer, even at high speed, its advanced crash safety system would likely have prevented serious injury as it has in numerous other similar incidents.

[cimmo]

It's literally on the Tesla website: https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss

Neither Autopilot nor the driver noticed the white side of the tractor trailer against a brightly lit sky, so the brake was not applied.

And how have Tesla come to that determination?
Just because some PR hack at Tesla motors has said something doesn't necessarlly make it true.
Have Tesla released any hard data from the onboard sensors confirming this "story"?
If not, then why not?

Nope, this story is being made bigger than it really deserves to be - a truck driver fucked up and killed someone. How many times a day does this happen? So why does everyone seem to insist that Tesla should be able to abrogate the laws of physics and prevent such things from happening?

I have yet to see ANYTHING stating for a fact that even a fully aware, switched on and alert driver - in full manual control of the vehicle - had enough time to reduce their speed enough to prevent the fatal severity of this crash. All this speculation "that since the Tesla driver 'apparently' wasn't paying attention" then he has himself to blame is simply wrong.
Mr Baressi is to blame.

Most of this thread is victim blaming and if the victim was a rape victim, people  wouldn't be going around saying "she had herself to blame because if she was paying attention she wouldn't have been raped".

[zapta]

Being in the right is useless when you're dead.

Would you say that to a murder victim's family?

Bad argument. He didn't say it to the driver's family either.

[Delta]

I think it is a mistake on Tesla's part to market this system as an "Autopilot".  That is just asking for the intellectually-challenged to take it as "the car drives itself, I don't have to pay attention any more!"

[edavid]

How about we wait a few months for the actual investigation to sift through all this media hyped bullshit?

Maybe you should take your own advice 

[nctnico]

It's literally on the Tesla website: https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss

Neither Autopilot nor the driver noticed the white side of the tractor trailer against a brightly lit sky, so the brake was not applied.

And how have Tesla come to that determination?
Just because some PR hack at Tesla motors has said something doesn't necessarlly make it true.
Have Tesla released any hard data from the onboard sensors confirming this "story"?
If not, then why not?

Nope, this story is being made bigger than it really deserves to be - a truck driver fucked up and killed someone. How many times a day does this happen?

I tend to trust Tesla has based it's claim on the car's black box data otherwise they will have to take it back/rectify their story causing a shit storm of epic proportions. The fact the sensors didn't sense the truck make it very likely that the visibility for the driver was also extremely poor so the driver may not have seen the truck in time to brake as well.
I'm inclined to put part of the blame on the truck driver. He shouldn't have turned with traffic coming up ahead (which I could clearly see because of the left turn he was making to cross the road). Maybe the Tesla driver had his dash cam running during the accident and if so the footage should shed some light on what happened.