First Tesla Autopilot death

[cimmo]

How about we wait a few months for the actual investigation to sift through all this media hyped bullshit?

Maybe you should take your own advice 

I'm not the one offering opinions, guesses and other wild arsed speculation and in so doing impugning the victim of this crime but presenting it all as an incontrovertible fact.

[cimmo]

I'm inclined to put part of the blame on the truck driver. He shouldn't have turned with traffic coming up ahead...

So if you were empanelled on the jury to prosecute this truck driver for vehicular manslaughter, are you saying that you'd aquit?
Do you not have 'give way to oncoming traffic when turning left' laws where you are?

Maybe the Tesla driver had his dash cam running during the accident and if so the footage should shed some light on what happened.

Why bother, apparently everyone knows exactly what happened already.

[Maxlor]

How do we know that he didn't turn directly in front of the Tesla and yet the Tesla driver DID stand on the brakes - the antiskid would have prevented any skid marks - but the distance and time available to him was simply insufficient to reduce the speed enough to avoid a fatal collision? From what I've read it's just speculation that the Tesla driver was completely passive in this event - do we actually know that for sure? Do we have some data from the Tesla's onboard electronics that tell the real story?
If so, I'd like a link (and not to media speculation).

What we know by the sketch the police released is that the truck made a left turn, and the first half of the truck had already cleared the car's lane. It takes several seconds for a truck to get that far from a standstill, and while the white trailer might have been invisible due to inconvient lighting, I very much doubt the same applies to the tractor part (if lighting was indeed *that* bad, he should have slowed way down to begin with. You need to be able to see where you're going!) How long would it take the driver to get that far? Based on the 5 seconds mentioned earlier, maybe 4 seconds?

4 seconds is enough (including some reaction time) to come from highway speeds to a full stop. And it takes less time to at least slow down enough for the crash to no longer be fatal. And he wouldn't have needed to come to a stop either, just slow down enough so that he would arrive at the intersection a second or two later and thus avoid the truck.

If the driver did actually brake, he did so so late that the car still had enough energy to pass under the truck despite the severe impact and continue on for quite a bit. Can't have been for more than a second I reckon.

The truck driver might have technically cut off the car, but I still think the tesla driver had many seconds to react yet didn't for whatever reason. A semitrailer truck is not a fast vehicle, and a left turn across an intersection isn't a sudden maneuver. So the tesla driver being surprised through no fault of his own? No, I don't buy it.

[rrinker]

 If he was EXPECTING the autopilot to slow him down, and then it didn't - I can see that as being quite a surprise. That there was NO apparent reaction at all by the driver, then he was just being an idiot and not paying attention. It may not have prevented a collision, but had he been paying attention and taken over once he realized the autopilot wasn't slowing him, he might still be alive.

[cimmo]

The truck driver might have technically cut off the car,

As to the potential charge of vehicular manslaughter -
Guilty or not guilty?

Who had the right of way?
Because this IS all that matters - we live in nations of laws and when people die due to a law being broken, there should be consequences.

[suicidaleggroll]

What we know by the sketch the police released is that the truck made a left turn, and the first half of the truck had already cleared the car's lane. It takes several seconds for a truck to get that far from a standstill

And do we know he was at a standstill?  The truck just as easily could have been cruising along and hung a left in front of the Tesla without stopping.  Trucks and buses do that shit all the time, and they get T-boned because of it all the time.

The truck driver is at fault, plain and simple.  When somebody breaks a traffic law this clearly, they are at fault.  It doesn't matter if the other car could have maybe stopped in time if X, Y, or Z.  If I illegally take a left in front of oncoming traffic and get hit, nobody goes around checking traffic cams to see whether the driver of the car that hit me was watching the road or fiddling with their stereo, it's my fault, easy as that.

[Maxlor]

I don't think that it has been in dispute anywhere in this thread whether the truck driver is at fault? It seems likely. But that wasn't really the point for most of the discussion!

[edavid]

The truck driver is at fault, plain and simple.  When somebody breaks a traffic law this clearly, they are at fault.  It doesn't matter if the other car could have maybe stopped in time if X, Y, or Z.  If I illegally take a left in front of oncoming traffic and get hit, nobody goes around checking traffic cams to see whether the driver of the car that hit me was watching the road or fiddling with their stereo, it's my fault, easy as that.

Why do you say it was an illegal turn?  What if the Tesla was going too fast?  (What was the speed limit on the road?)

Has the truck driver been ticketed?

[nctnico]

I'm inclined to put part of the blame on the truck driver. He shouldn't have turned with traffic coming up ahead...

So if you were empanelled on the jury to prosecute this truck driver for vehicular manslaughter, are you saying that you'd aquit?
Do you not have 'give way to oncoming traffic when turning left' laws where you are?

Yes. But things might be different if the truck stood still because for whatever (technical) reason. In that case the Tesla driver hit a stationary object on the road. In the NL there has been a long legal battle started by a cyclist who hit a car which was parked on the bicycle lane. The final verdict is that the cyclist should have watched out and is to responsible for the damage to the car. If the car would have moved (even at snail speed) then the driver of the car would be at fault.
What I'm saying is that at this point there isn't enough information to put the blame entirely on one party involved in the accident. If I where investigating or prosecuting this accident I'd definitely put the truck driver's actions under a magnifying glass as well.

[cimmo]

I'm inclined to put part of the blame on the truck driver. He shouldn't have turned with traffic coming up ahead...

So if you were empanelled on the jury to prosecute this truck driver for vehicular manslaughter, are you saying that you'd aquit?
Do you not have 'give way to oncoming traffic when turning left' laws where you are?

Yes. But things might be different if the truck stood still because for whatever (technical) reason.

IF the truck was stationary at the time of the collision,  how did it end up fifty meters or so down the road he was turning into (according to the police report)? Was it moved AFTER the collision? Or is it more likely that the truck was moving at the time of the collision?
Your theory seems highly implausible. But sure, grasp at straws if you want to avoid the obvious.

[suicidaleggroll]

What if the Tesla was going too fast?  (What was the speed limit on the road?)

From what I understand, the Tesla autopilot will not allow you to go more than 5 mph over the posted speed limit:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-autopilot-idUSKCN0UO0NM20160110

[nctnico]

I'm inclined to put part of the blame on the truck driver. He shouldn't have turned with traffic coming up ahead...

So if you were empanelled on the jury to prosecute this truck driver for vehicular manslaughter, are you saying that you'd aquit?
Do you not have 'give way to oncoming traffic when turning left' laws where you are?

Yes. But things might be different if the truck stood still because for whatever (technical) reason.

IF the truck was stationary at the time of the collision,  how did it end up a hundred meters or so down the road he was turning into (according to the police report)? Was it moved AFTER the collision? Or is it more likely that the truck was moving at the time of the collision?
Your theory seems highly implausible. But sure, grasp at straws if you want to avoid the obvious.

Sorry but you are clearly not reading what I'm writing; you just read what you want to read and put words in my mouth I have never written. Unfortunately that makes it impossible to have a sensible conversation.

[Augustus]

Just curious: Isn't there any "partial blame" concept implemented in the US? Like the truck driver gets 60% of the blame because he turned without paying enough attention to the oncoming traffic and the Tesla driver gets the other 40% because he (for example) was speeding and not paying attention as well. It's very common over here 

[cimmo]

Sorry but you are clearly not reading what I'm writing; you just read what you want to read and put words in my mouth I have never written. Unfortunately that makes it impossible to have a sensible conversation.

Bullshit.
You offered some wild arsed guess of a hypothetical that would absolve the truck driver of responsibility and I simply demonstrated a fatal flaw in your argument based on the actual police report showing the disposition of the vehicles after the crash.

 

[nctnico]

Sorry but you are clearly not reading what I'm writing; you just read what you want to read and put words in my mouth I have never written. Unfortunately that makes it impossible to have a sensible conversation.

Bullshit.
You offered some wild arsed guess of a hypothetical that would absolve the truck driver of responsibility and I simply demonstrated a fatal flaw in your argument based on the actual police report showing the disposition of the vehicles after the crash.

Now you are doing it again! From a legal standpoint you have to look at all the possibilities. The fact the trucked stopped in a different position than where the accident happened does not imply the truck was moving during the accident.

[edavid]

Just curious: Isn't there any "partial blame" concept implemented in the US? Like the truck driver gets 60% of the blame because he turned without paying enough attention to the oncoming traffic and the Tesla driver gets the other 40% because he (for example) was speeding and not paying attention as well. It's very common over here 

Yes, certainly.

[cimmo]

Now you are doing it again! From a legal standpoint you have to look at all the possibilities. The fact the trucked stopped in a different position than where the accident happened does not imply the truck was moving during the accident.

This truck driver has had quite some time to provide some form of excuse as to why this death occurred. The best he has offered so far is he did not see the Tesla until it was under his truck and that the Tesla driver was watching a Harry Potter movie.

He must be really stupid (or at least very forgetful) to not have mentioned to the police and the media that he was STATIONARY at the time of the collision.

[bitseeker]

And do we know he was at a standstill?  The truck just as easily could have been cruising along and hung a left in front of the Tesla without stopping.  Trucks and buses do that shit all the time, and they get T-boned because of it all the time.

Truck and bus drivers do that either way. Many years ago, I was driving on the right lane of a four-lane road (two lanes in each direction) toward a T-intersection where a bus to my left had the only stop sign. After stopping at the intersection, the driver decided to pull out across three lanes and then into my lane to cut in front of me. He had the lane next to me to complete his turn. Fortunately, I stopped in a cloud of smoke just inches from slamming into the side of the bus. What an idiot!

[nctnico]

Bus drivers are required to undergo a lobotomy before they are allowed to drive a bus! Last week I nearly saw 2 busses crash into eachother on an intersection. Where I live the busses have a seperated road system through the city so they don't have to expect any other traffic at all -they think-.

[dannyf]

It would be interesting to see how Tesla marketed this feature.

Regardless of its warning or beta States, I would argue that if this feature is marketed as an "auto pilot", it is false advertising and it failed to meet its basic merchantability as such.

The fact that Tesla admitted it's inability distinguish between white sky and a white truck only adds to that argument.

This " auto pilot" seems more like a vision impaired driver who has no business on the road.

I would certainly consider legal action, against Tesla and the government (for essentially granting this "auto pilot" a driver's license), if I were the family.

[Towger]

So far we are just speculating based on the limited information available.  I am sure our resident Tesla expert will be able to fill in the gaps, once the legal eagles have finished extracting their pound of flesh.

[Brumby]

Oh, FFS people ... CHILL!!!

I don't think that it has been in dispute anywhere in this thread whether the truck driver is at fault? It seems likely. But that wasn't really the point for most of the discussion!

This is the only comment I have found on the latest back-and-forth that has actually nailed the real issue.


Unless there were other traffic controls in effect, OF COURSE the truck driver was at fault....  BUT THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE at the heart of this discussion!

This discussion is about the Tesla Autopilot technology - and the relationship with its human driver.  Hazardous situations like this WILL occur and the reaction of the technology and interaction with the driver is what we're really looking at here.

YES, the TRUCK caused the accident - but the lack of any reaction by the technology and the driver of the Tesla S contributed to the death.  A normally driven vehicle would have had some braking applied - and possibly some evasive manoeuvres taken - (even if late) possibly resulting in a less severe outcome.

YES, the TRUCK is at fault, but if driverless vehicles are to develop further, they MUST become more reliable in dealing with such situations ... and until they do, drivers must NOT become complacent.

[BillWojo]

Vehicles on auto pilot scare the hell out of me. They should be mandated to have flashing beacons on all four corners of the car high up on little poles to alert other drivers that a driverless car is in the vicinity. And yes, it is a driverless car, once the driver starts relying on the auto pilot he will tend to drift off and do something else besides looking at where he or she is going. It will become like a drive in a taxi cab.
Rich people will buy these for the kids and the kids will never learn any driving skills. They will never have a clue what to do in an emergency situation.
Years ago my then girl friend was learning to drive. It happened to snow one day so I took her out into a big mall parking lot with about 6" of fresh slippery powder covering the lot. I taught her how to slide the car and she had a blast running ovals around two widely spaced light poles getting the car all crossed up. Today she can handle a car in almost any situation.
Heck, if a giant like Microsoft has bugs in it's software.......

Billwojo

[Brumby]

I wholeheartedly agree.

When my kids were learning to drive I told them I knew they were going to hoon around - but that they should pick their time and place.  The purpose of this was twofold.

First was that I made it clear to them that they were to take on the responsibility of their own actions - and, hopefully, self regulate ... rather than risk preaching at them from on high and having them give me the proverbial finger.

Second was that when a vehicle was taken outside normal parameters, they had a feel of what it was like and how to deal with it.

Add to that some mechanical understanding - and I feel a whole lot better about them driving on our roads.

Just last week, one of my sons was talking to me about a situation where his Landcruiser got out of shape and he wondered why he didn't panic and dealt with it safely.  I told him.


But, back on topic....

One further issue I have with complete handing over to automation is the removal of 'outside the box' alternatives.  For example, say you were about to slam into the rear of a vehicle and had time for only one simple manoeuvre... To the side of the road is a corn field with just a light fence and no major obstructions.  A human driver could direct their vehicle into the corn field, with the only casualty being some panel damage and a couple of bushels of corn.

I would be very surprised if a Tesla S would go there.

[cimmo]

Vehicles on auto pilot scare the hell out of me. They should be mandated to have flashing beacons on all four corners of the car high up on little poles to alert other drivers that a driverless car is in the vicinity.

When those ugly and noisy contraptions known as horseless carriages first appeared on the roads, some jurisdictions required by law that they be preceded by a man on foot waving a red flag.

The sooner we retire ALL the truck drivers  - especially owner drivers - and replace those 50+ ton death machines with automation, the better.
And this WILL happen, because it will save the corporates money - and that is all that matters to them.
In the interim, at the very least trailer side guards should be made mandatory:
http://bgr.com/2016/07/05/tesla-model-s-crash-truck-design-europe/