Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)

[vk3yedotcom]

Just found this: https://fixthevoltage.org/

They reckon our mains voltage is too high, and at most times is above the 230v standard.

[james_s]

Is it? I thought the standard was 240V?

Either way I question their claims, quoted from their site:
Overvoltage increases the amount of energy used by consumers
Overvoltage increases carbon emissions
Overvoltage reduces the efficiency of rooftop solar
Overvoltage damages domestic appliances and shortens their life
Overvoltage increases the costs on everyone’s power bills


Some of those may be true for incandescent lamps, but what else? Overvoltage will make electric resistance heaters produce more heat, so they'll run less time, same amount of energy is consumed. Electronics will all be made to accommodate the global standards, so at least 240V nominal, the vast majority of electronics these days are rated something like 90-265V so not an issue. Anything with a switchmode power supply which is almost everything these days, including lights will draw less current as the voltage increases, so more energy is not consumed and the bills won't be higher.

IMHO this sounds like a bunch of nonsense by people who know just enough about electricity to think they know everything. 

[Nusa]

Just found this: https://fixthevoltage.org/

They reckon our mains voltage is too high, and at most times is above the 230v standard.

My understanding is that while that's the nominal value, anything within +10% or -6% of that is within the standard as written.

Which in the case of the EU, was a way of writing a universal standard that allowed almost everyone to meet the spec without actually changing anything. 220, 230, 240, 250V all fall within that window.

[magic]

In fact, computer PSUs tend to have higher efficiency close to the top of their rated input voltage range because of I²R losses in components which need to be selected for the highest voltage anyway.

Can I sign a change.org petition to ban DHMO too?

[Rerouter]

A large part of the high voltages in my area is from all the solar installs backfeeding, from about 10AM - 5PM the voltage remains pegged at the max spec for the inverters,

Technically that could be something deliberate from the power companies to reduce feed in tarriff rates, but I personally think its just too much supply and not enough load in certain areas.

[Brumby]

Is it? I thought the standard was 240V?

The standard "changed" in 2001.

Before it was 240V +6%,-10%
Now it is 230V +10%,-6%

Run the numbers - and have a giggle.  In essence, nothing in the real world had to change.

[tooki]

IMHO this sounds like a bunch of nonsense by people who know just enough about electricity to think they know everything.

Sure seems like it to me. Given that all else held equal, at a given wattage, higher voltage means lower current and smaller voltage drop, if anything we should be seeking higher voltages.

[Gyro]

Is it? I thought the standard was 240V?

The standard "changed" in 2001.

Before it was 240V +6%,-10%
Now it is 230V +10%,-6%

Run the numbers - and have a giggle.  In essence, nothing in the real world had to change.

Same here in the UK. EU mains voltage harmonisation was merely a paper exercise.

[AlbertL]

For various opinions on the topic, Google "conservation voltage reduction".  That's what it's called in the US; it may be known by other names elsewhere in the world. 

[SilverSolder]

For various opinions on the topic, Google "conservation voltage reduction".  That's what it's called in the US; it may be known by other names elsewhere in the world.

Awesome idea....   If you cut the voltage to zero, we would use no energy at all! 

[nctnico]

For various opinions on the topic, Google "conservation voltage reduction".  That's what it's called in the US; it may be known by other names elsewhere in the world.

Unless you use incandescent light bulbs the voltage doesn't matter at all nowadays. A switch mode PSU (which is also inside CFL and LED lamps) is a constant energy pump. OTOH higher voltages reduce current and thus losses in the power distribution grid.

[tom66]

I can't see how voltage reduction would help with the majority of appliances.

Devices like dishwashers, washing machines, etc. all draw heating current to meet a temperature set point, so lower voltage will simply extend their heating cycles.  I^2 losses in feed cabling will reduce,  but this may well be counterbalanced by the losses of the machine being greater as the respective cycles operate for longer, losing more energy over that time.

The same applies for the cooling cycles of refrigerators, although perhaps the start-up current would be mildly reduced, I can't see this being considerable.

Anything with an SMPS will generally be more efficient at higher input voltages, although the difference between 230V and 245V is likely to be negligible.

In fact the only thing I could see an improvement on would be devices using fixed AC to accomplish a task with no feedback - fans, incandescent lights (do people really use these any more?) and maybe certain inexpensive LED lamps.  Almost everything else will be about the same, or better, on higher input voltages.

[SilverSolder]

I can't see how voltage reduction would help with the majority of appliances.

Devices like dishwashers, washing machines, etc. all draw heating current to meet a temperature set point, so lower voltage will simply extend their heating cycles.  I^2 losses in feed cabling will reduce,  but this may well be counterbalanced by the losses of the machine being greater as the respective cycles operate for longer, losing more energy over that time.

The same applies for the cooling cycles of refrigerators, although perhaps the start-up current would be mildly reduced, I can't see this being considerable.

Anything with an SMPS will generally be more efficient at higher input voltages, although the difference between 230V and 245V is likely to be negligible.

In fact the only thing I could see an improvement on would be devices using fixed AC to accomplish a task with no feedback - fans, incandescent lights (do people really use these any more?) and maybe certain inexpensive LED lamps.  Almost everything else will be about the same, or better, on higher input voltages.

Electric heat the same thing - it runs off a thermostat aiming for a setpoint, it will just take a little longer to get there (while using exactly the same amount of energy).  The more you think about it, the dumber the voltage reduction idea looks.

My house is still full of incandescent lamps - they are all on dimmers and last, and last, and last...   and provide the warm glowing orange light I like when dimmed!  They are dimmed 99% of the time and not cost effective to replace.

[james_s]

Unless you use incandescent light bulbs the voltage doesn't matter at all nowadays. A switch mode PSU (which is also inside CFL and LED lamps) is a constant energy pump. OTOH higher voltages reduce current and thus losses in the power distribution grid.

One of the effects I noticed when I went to CFL many years ago and later LED lighting is that I no longer noticed momentary dips in the power except if I had the bathroom vent fan on I would hear the speed sag momentarily and now I have several UPS's that kick in. Used to be every time the fridge or air compressor started or a tree branch landed on a power line somewhere the lights would dim or flicker. Modern lighting rides it out without so much as a flicker. I've even had a few incidents during wind storms when the voltage dipped to maybe 80V (from 120 nominal) for a full second or two accompanied by the loud buzz of an arc off in the distance and the LED lights didn't even dim. I only noticed it happening because it was around the holidays and I had some old incandescent Christmas lights around the window and those very noticeably dimmed and flickered.

[james_s]

Electric heat the same thing - it runs off a thermostat aiming for a setpoint, it will just take a little longer to get there (while using exactly the same amount of energy).  The more you think about it, the dumber the voltage reduction idea looks.

My house is still full of incandescent lamps - they are all on dimmers and last, and last, and last...   and provide the warm glowing orange light I like when dimmed!  They are dimmed 99% of the time and not cost effective to replace.

Philips makes (or at least made) a line of LED bulbs that turn more orange as they are dimmed. It's not exactly the same effect as you get with incandescent if you really dim them down low but it's pretty close. I have a handful of them that I put in the more vintage fixtures I have that are on dimmers. I still keep incandescent in all the lights at our cabin because it maintains the cool 1970s vibe the place has and since nobody is there most of the time the power bill rarely exceeds the fixed monthly charge just for being connected. I retired them everywhere else years ago though, except places that need them like the oven light and a couple of lava lamps that rely on the heat from the bulb to work.

[tom66]

Unless you use incandescent light bulbs the voltage doesn't matter at all nowadays. A switch mode PSU (which is also inside CFL and LED lamps) is a constant energy pump. OTOH higher voltages reduce current and thus losses in the power distribution grid.

One of the effects I noticed when I went to CFL many years ago and later LED lighting is that I no longer noticed momentary dips in the power except if I had the bathroom vent fan on I would hear the speed sag momentarily and now I have several UPS's that kick in. Used to be every time the fridge or air compressor started or a tree branch landed on a power line somewhere the lights would dim or flicker. Modern lighting rides it out without so much as a flicker. I've even had a few incidents during wind storms when the voltage dipped to maybe 80V (from 120 nominal) for a full second or two accompanied by the loud buzz of an arc off in the distance and the LED lights didn't even dim. I only noticed it happening because it was around the holidays and I had some old incandescent Christmas lights around the window and those very noticeably dimmed and flickered.

We had a proper brownout here for a few seconds and my computer SMPS didn't even blink.  The LED lights stayed on without dimming but both monitors, my GW Instek PSU and my scope rebooted (both are universal voltage 100-265V),  but the PC rode through without a blip.

Modern SMPS power supplies are quite comfortable accepting inputs well outside their nominal rating for some time, provided they aren't heavily loaded.  It's one reason I'm not convinced tap-changing UPSes are worth the money any more.

[james_s]

I can't see how voltage reduction would help with the majority of appliances.

Devices like dishwashers, washing machines, etc. all draw heating current to meet a temperature set point, so lower voltage will simply extend their heating cycles.  I^2 losses in feed cabling will reduce,  but this may well be counterbalanced by the losses of the machine being greater as the respective cycles operate for longer, losing more energy over that time.

The same applies for the cooling cycles of refrigerators, although perhaps the start-up current would be mildly reduced, I can't see this being considerable.

Anything with an SMPS will generally be more efficient at higher input voltages, although the difference between 230V and 245V is likely to be negligible.

In fact the only thing I could see an improvement on would be devices using fixed AC to accomplish a task with no feedback - fans, incandescent lights (do people really use these any more?) and maybe certain inexpensive LED lamps.  Almost everything else will be about the same, or better, on higher input voltages.

Doesn't the current draw of an induction motor increase as voltage is reduced? Assuming that's the case then I^R losses in the motor windings and supply wiring will be increased. I was under the impression that the reason for the voltage increasing over the years from the original 110/220V to 115/230, 117/234 and the current 120/240V was to squeeze more capacity out of the existing grid and reduce transmission losses.

[james_s]

Modern SMPS power supplies are quite comfortable accepting inputs well outside their nominal rating for some time, provided they aren't heavily loaded.  It's one reason I'm not convinced tap-changing UPSes are worth the money any more.

I was discussing those with an engineer friend a few months ago after we each happened to acquire a pile of older UPS's. I'm not convinced the "automatic voltage regulation" models as they're called were ever worth it. They don't work like a constant voltage transformer, they don't even have very many steps, just a couple of buck and a couple of boost taps in most cases. The quiescent draw is significantly higher than a similar UPS without that feature since the transformer is active all the time and brings with it the associated losses. It's only a few watts but it can add up to megawatt hours over the life of the unit(s). Perhaps some areas have real brownouts that last many minutes, I don't know, but my power has only ever dipped out of spec for a stretch of a few seconds at most, or gone out completely. If the voltage goes out of spec I just want the UPS to kick in and switch to battery until things settle down. It's pointless for it to try to boost the voltage up. On top of that, if everyone had auto voltage boost regulators they would only exacerbate a brownout caused by overload since they have to draw more current from the grid in order to boost the voltage. The advertise the feature as beneficial for "sensitive electronic devices" but what electronics made in the last 30-40 years are "sensitive"? My family's first PC in 1984 had a switchmode power supply, it had a 115/230 selector switch on the back so it was not the modern type but I bet it would still operate reliably from say 90-140V. 

[Zero999]

My house is still full of incandescent lamps - they are all on dimmers and last, and last, and last...   and provide the warm glowing orange light I like when dimmed!  They are dimmed 99% of the time and not cost effective to replace.

The efficiency of incandescent lamps drastically degrades when dimmed, so if you could get LED lamps with the same colour, as your dimmed incandescent lamps, you could get the same light for well under a tenth of the power.

[schmitt trigger]

The only instance where a voltage reduction would be beneficial, is on home appliances which utilize permanent-split-capacitor induction motors.
More so if they were running at light mechanical loads.


But most modern appliances have moved or will move towards BLDC motors. Since their controllers are at heart a SMPS, the efficiency gain by a slight voltage decrease most likely will be minuscule.

[floobydust]

The utility industry here uses higher voltages (~124V) as a cover up for an aging infrastructure. With growth in population, industrial usage etc. demand has increased, power factor has also degraded and utilities just want to make money. Power plants are multi-billion dollar projects, new HV power lines, transformers as well are very costly. With coal being demonized, natural gas frowned upon and all the environmentalists dreaming about solar and wind generation, building new power generation or infrastructure does carry new risk.

The easiest solution is to crank up voltage, which means lower current, so old power lines don't overheat and old substation transformers, breakers can still be used- just push your existing infrastructure.
Adding capacitor banks helps but they are very expensive and ultimately you still need to pipe in more power. It's only going to get worse when electric cars become popular.

Most loads are inductive, this seems to be what is making the payoff. I saw industrial and plant induction motors were using less current at the higher voltages. Small loads such as light bulbs, a PC are unimportant in the big scheme.

[SilverSolder]

Electric heat the same thing - it runs off a thermostat aiming for a setpoint, it will just take a little longer to get there (while using exactly the same amount of energy).  The more you think about it, the dumber the voltage reduction idea looks.

My house is still full of incandescent lamps - they are all on dimmers and last, and last, and last...   and provide the warm glowing orange light I like when dimmed!  They are dimmed 99% of the time and not cost effective to replace.

Philips makes (or at least made) a line of LED bulbs that turn more orange as they are dimmed. It's not exactly the same effect as you get with incandescent if you really dim them down low but it's pretty close. I have a handful of them that I put in the more vintage fixtures I have that are on dimmers. I still keep incandescent in all the lights at our cabin because it maintains the cool 1970s vibe the place has and since nobody is there most of the time the power bill rarely exceeds the fixed monthly charge just for being connected. I retired them everywhere else years ago though, except places that need them like the oven light and a couple of lava lamps that rely on the heat from the bulb to work.

I have swapped to LED in many locations, it's just that I like to dim REALLY low and make the place cozy! There are about two dozen incandescent ceiling lamps that just don't look right with LEDs.

The efficiency of incandescent lamps drastically degrades when dimmed, so if you could get LED lamps with the same colour, as your dimmed incandescent lamps, you could get the same light for well under a tenth of the power.

During the winter months, the heat emitted by the bulbs can be subtracted from the heating bill...  so it isn't so bad.   During summer, the days are longer and more time is spent outside.  If you do the math on it, incandescent bulbs at this geographic location are not a disaster at all.

[james_s]

I have swapped to LED in many locations, it's just that I like to dim REALLY low and make the place cozy! There are about two dozen incandescent ceiling lamps that just don't look right with LEDs.

It's true that nothing does quite match that cozy dimmed incandescent look, at least nothing that is readily available at modest prices. I did recently pick up a Philips Hue "White Ambiance" bulb which is pretty cool, it is dimmable from full brightness to a faint glow and the color temperature is tunable from a warm cozy 2200k up to icy blue 6500k daylight. It was fairly expensive though at $20 and has the complexity of needing a zigbee bridge, still it's cool that such a thing exists. I'm a lighting geek so I pretty much just bought it to play with, I don't plan to outfit my house with them.

[BravoV]

Its Elon's fault, Tesla's batteries that is attached to the grid is too powerful ... 

... duck&run ...

[coppercone2]

Is it? I thought the standard was 240V?

Either way I question their claims, quoted from their site:
Overvoltage increases the amount of energy used by consumers
Overvoltage increases carbon emissions
Overvoltage reduces the efficiency of rooftop solar
Overvoltage damages domestic appliances and shortens their life
Overvoltage increases the costs on everyone’s power bills


Some of those may be true for incandescent lamps, but what else? Overvoltage will make electric resistance heaters produce more heat, so they'll run less time, same amount of energy is consumed. Electronics will all be made to accommodate the global standards, so at least 240V nominal, the vast majority of electronics these days are rated something like 90-265V so not an issue. Anything with a switchmode power supply which is almost everything these days, including lights will draw less current as the voltage increases, so more energy is not consumed and the bills won't be higher.

IMHO this sounds like a bunch of nonsense by people who know just enough about electricity to think they know everything.

are you serious? it kills the life time of most devices. even a heater is running at a higher watt density and thermal cycling more often. what is that going to do to even a basic coil? Basically it causes a higher temperatre

what do inrushes look like when the voltage is higher? I lived in an area next to a very spikey power grid (near a very bad load that caused frequent sags and spikes). I could make minimum wage collecting stuff and repairing stuff with fried PTCs and fuses if I wanted to.

HV trashes stuff


even basic light bulbs
https://yarchive.net/electr/incandescent_overvoltage.html

another article which I can't link here

In general, if the lamp is over-driven with a voltage just five percent higher than its rating, then the life expectancy is cut in half! This effect gets worse as the voltage goes higher. At ten percent over voltage,lamp life decreases to only 31 percent of its rated value.

It's great not to take action for the Sylvania Co. so they can feed on your wallet

Maybe these assertions would be true if people started choking their mains inlet hard core. but then you got some hot and heavy vampires all over the place. anyone have that fat guy from blade 1 come to mind?


also exploding light bulbs are not fun.