Author Topic: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)  (Read 9423 times)

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Offline tom66

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2020, 09:56:08 am »
are you serious? it kills the life time of most devices. even a heater is running at a higher watt density and thermal cycling more often. what is that going to do to even a basic coil? Basically it causes a higher temperatre

Halogen light bulbs actually have a longer lifespan when run near the upper end of their operating voltage curve, as the halogen cycle works better when the bulb is running a bit hotter.

I have never had a wire-based (nichrome) heater fail at the element.  If there is a failure, it is due to bearings in the motor, or the thermostat or protective fuse fails open.  The elements themselves are almost always intact.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2020, 10:23:02 am »
During the winter months, the heat emitted by the bulbs can be subtracted from the heating bill...  so it isn't so bad.   During summer, the days are longer and more time is spent outside.  If you do the math on it, incandescent bulbs at this geographic location are not a disaster at all.
I use natural gas for heating, which is much cheaper than electricity, where I live. If you want to use electricity for heating, then go for a heat pump. Resistive heating, whether it's from incandescent lamps, or a heating element, is just a waste of energy.
 
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2020, 01:58:53 pm »
For many years, the standard Mains voltage in Western Australia was 250v, instead of the 240v standard in other States.
Electrical & Electronic equipment designed for 240v use had no discernible reduction in life expectancy.

Back when we made incandescent lamps in Australia, 240v ones would happily operate on 250v for extended periods, again with no discernible difference in life expectancy.

The "bean counters" decided it was cheaper to import lamps from third world countries, so Australian manufacture was wound up.

The imported "240v" ones had markedly reduced life times, up to a fifth as long as the old Oz ones.
Importers knew  a "nice little earner" when they saw one, & specially imported "260v" lamps for WA at a premium price---------- they lasted just barely longer than the "240v" ones!

By now, we had been "brainwashed", so at great cost, the standard mains voltage was reduced to 240v.
The 240v & 260v lamps now lasted----------(drumroll) Just as long as they did on 250v!

Anyway, we now knew that incandescent lamps were unreliable, energy guzzling inventions of Satan (or at least Edison, in between being mean to Tesla).
The saviour was to be CFLs.

I hated the bloody things-- they either worked for a while, then faded out to unusabilitlty in slightly longer time than the life of the imported  incandescents, or in some cases, were DOA. >:(

As soon as LED lamps came on the market in quantity, I grabbed one for the lounge room.
Blow me down, if the thing didn't copy the CFLs, by starting out bright, then fading over time. :o
It was transferred to toilet light service, where it has performed well.

The next lot of LED lamps have been excellent, & CFLs have been banished from my house.

 
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Offline themadhippy

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2020, 02:08:26 pm »
Quote
energy guzzling inventions of Satan (or at least Edison
Mr swan might have an issue with that statment
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2020, 02:13:14 pm »
are you serious? it kills the life time of most devices. even a heater is running at a higher watt density and thermal cycling more often. what is that going to do to even a basic coil? Basically it causes a higher temperatre

Halogen light bulbs actually have a longer lifespan when run near the upper end of their operating voltage curve, as the halogen cycle works better when the bulb is running a bit hotter.

I have never had a wire-based (nichrome) heater fail at the element.  If there is a failure, it is due to bearings in the motor, or the thermostat or protective fuse fails open.  The elements themselves are almost always intact.

kilns burn out all the time on the elements. and heat guns are notorious for destroying the coil

not that I have alot of experience with this, my power is stable
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 02:16:04 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2020, 02:42:13 pm »
Quote
energy guzzling inventions of Satan (or at least Edison
Mr swan might have an issue with that statment

But he wasn't mean to the great god Tesla!
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2020, 04:02:29 pm »
Interesting information about WA having such a high household voltage.
What was the reason to choose it in the first place?

On the other side of the coin there is Japan, with its ludicrously low 100 volts.
The only reason I can think of, is to create a technical barrier to imports.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2020, 04:15:06 pm »
certain things will last alot longer, however in DC systems the power converter needs to be analyzed on a case by case basis
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2020, 05:04:05 pm »
On the other side of the coin there is Japan, with its ludicrously low 100 volts.
The only reason I can think of, is to create a technical barrier to imports.

It's historical, dating back to 100V generators bought in the late 19th century that formed the basis of what eventually grew into their national grids. Worse yet, the ones they got from the US were 60 Hz, and the ones they got from Germany were 50 Hz. Japan's grid is still split between those two frequencies.

Note that the US nominal voltage was 110V up until the 1960's, which was close enough to 100V for many things to be compatible during the US occupation of Japan after WWII.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2020, 05:19:49 pm »
During the winter months, the heat emitted by the bulbs can be subtracted from the heating bill...  so it isn't so bad.   During summer, the days are longer and more time is spent outside.  If you do the math on it, incandescent bulbs at this geographic location are not a disaster at all.
I use natural gas for heating, which is much cheaper than electricity, where I live. If you want to use electricity for heating, then go for a heat pump. Resistive heating, whether it's from incandescent lamps, or a heating element, is just a waste of energy.

I totally agree with you.  I consider it a "hobby" to have incandescent lamps.   Just like owning a horribly inefficient muscle car is a hobby...   just don't use it for everyday transport and you'll be fine!

I also have a DAZOR brand lamp over my work bench, which uses two real fluorescent tubes...    I could replace the tubes with LEDs, but why would I do that when the fluorescent tubes are just so awesome? :D


« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 05:23:38 pm by SilverSolder »
 
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Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2020, 01:12:43 pm »
Some people forget, (or don't realize?) how much the voltage changes during the day/night depending on
the present load. When I first started my 'trade' in the 70's with E.T.S.A. (the Sth Aust Power auth then), we
had 'O.L.T.C.' (On Load Tap-Changing) Transformers in the main Switch-Yards, that would automatically try
to change output Tap voltages throughout the day. Would drop to 230v, kick in to about 250v, drop back to
about 240v by evening when everyone is cooking!. Air conditioning was not a major problem back then!!  ;)

It's sort of like Homer Simpson, saying... "I like to think of speed signs as like a 'suggestion', like wearing pants!"
(Regarding the 'latter' in the above line, I just live outside in Jocks & singlet now.. being Australia!  8) ).
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Offline james_s

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2021, 01:36:28 am »
For many years, the standard Mains voltage in Western Australia was 250v, instead of the 240v standard in other States.
Electrical & Electronic equipment designed for 240v use had no discernible reduction in life expectancy.

Back when we made incandescent lamps in Australia, 240v ones would happily operate on 250v for extended periods, again with no discernible difference in life expectancy.

The "bean counters" decided it was cheaper to import lamps from third world countries, so Australian manufacture was wound up.

The imported "240v" ones had markedly reduced life times, up to a fifth as long as the old Oz ones.
Importers knew  a "nice little earner" when they saw one, & specially imported "260v" lamps for WA at a premium price---------- they lasted just barely longer than the "240v" ones!

The original ones were probably good quality 250V lamps which would also run (at significantly reduced efficiency) on 240V in other regions. It's true that a lot of newer incandescent lamps have been low quality compared to those made during the peak but lifespan is only part of the story. It's fairly trivial to make an incandescent lamp that will last 50,000 hours or more, if you don't care how many lumens per watt it produces. The vast majority of the cost of using an incandescent bulb is the electricity it consumes, so it is a false economy to optimize for long life unless the bulb is difficult to change in which case there are better choices these days.

There is no conspiracy involved in the 750-1000 hour lifespan, there is simply a tradeoff between lifespan and efficiency and 750 hours is a reasonable compromise that offers reasonable (by incandescent standards) efficiency at an acceptable lifespan. On one end of the spectrum are long life bulbs, you used to be able to get 130V bulbs that would last substantially longer on 120V but they were also quite dim for the wattage. On the other end of the spectrum are photoflood bulbs, I have a few of those and they have a rated life of 6(!) hours but they are very bright and produce a lot of light for the power they consume, again by incandescent standards. If you ignore the cost of your time to acquire and replace bulbs, the optimal lifespan for incandescent is probably around 100 hours or so. Longer life bulbs cost you more in electricity and shorter life bulbs cost you more in bulbs. In the real world the value of the time, effort and convenience shifts things toward longer life.

240V bulbs are also significantly less efficient than 120V bulbs which themselves are significantly less efficient than low voltage bulbs due to the increased thermal losses of the longer, thinner filament required for higher voltage operation. A 240V 60W bulb is pretty close in brightness to a 40W 120V bulb.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2021, 01:47:22 am »
Quote
energy guzzling inventions of Satan (or at least Edison
Mr swan might have an issue with that statment

But he wasn't mean to the great god Tesla!

Eh, Swan and Edison independently developed similar lamps over roughly the same period of time, the idea of an incandescent lamp was not completely new and neither inventor started from scratch, they simply perfected a marketable product and while I'm less familiar with Swan, Edison's main accomplishment with the light bulb was not inventing a bulb but developing and marketing the entire infrastructure. A bulb is useless outside of the laboratory unless you have sockets and switches and dynamos, meters, and other components. Edison knew this and put together everything needed for a complete system and got it into production so consumers could actually buy it and I suspect Swan did something similar in that part of the world. Edison was not known for being a particularly nice guy but that's true of countless other accomplished people, nobody remembers Steve Jobs, Bill Gates or even Linus Torvalds for being friendly.

Tesla was brilliant but calling him eccentric would be an understatement and in the later part of his life he was downright nutty. He was a showman and enjoyed being mysterious, it can be difficult to separate his actual developments from the rumors and legends surrounding him. Aside from this, I don't think Tesla ever produced and sold a marketable product himself, he wasn't a businessman. A dozen Teslas might develop some really cool technologies but without guys like Edison, Westinghouse and others like them most of these technologies would never evolve into something people can actually buy.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2021, 03:27:13 am »
Do parts of Australia still use the differently phased power grid?

I think it used the ground as the return?
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Online NiHaoMike

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2021, 04:27:59 am »
240V bulbs are also significantly less efficient than 120V bulbs which themselves are significantly less efficient than low voltage bulbs due to the increased thermal losses of the longer, thinner filament required for higher voltage operation. A 240V 60W bulb is pretty close in brightness to a 40W 120V bulb.
Back in the day, there were a few "enhanced efficiency" incandescent bulbs that had built in series diodes to lower the effective voltage so that the efficiency can be improved. They were very quickly overtaken by CFLs which offered a much greater improvement in efficiency.
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Offline drussell

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2021, 04:56:14 am »
I also have a DAZOR brand lamp over my work bench, which uses two real fluorescent tubes...    I could replace the tubes with LEDs, but why would I do that when the fluorescent tubes are just so awesome? :D


If it is a darkish brown like it appears in your photo, then I've got one of the exact same model of articulating drafting table lamp as that.  :)  Little red and black start/off buttons on top....

It's quite old but it is very handy, works perfectly and I really like it.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2021, 12:38:10 pm »
There is no conspiracy involved in the 750-1000 hour lifespan, there is simply a tradeoff between lifespan and efficiency and 750 hours is a reasonable compromise that offers reasonable (by incandescent standards) efficiency at an acceptable lifespan. On one end of the spectrum are long life bulbs, you used to be able to get 130V bulbs that would last substantially longer on 120V but they were also quite dim for the wattage. On the other end of the spectrum are photoflood bulbs, I have a few of those and they have a rated life of 6(!) hours but they are very bright and produce a lot of light for the power they consume, again by incandescent standards. If you ignore the cost of your time to acquire and replace bulbs, the optimal lifespan for incandescent is probably around 100 hours or so. Longer life bulbs cost you more in electricity and shorter life bulbs cost you more in bulbs. In the real world the value of the time, effort and convenience shifts things toward longer life.
Normally, I’m the first person to interject that planned obsolescence is practically entirely a myth. But in the case of light bulbs, we have a documented, official case of colluded planned obsolescence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

Before it, light bulbs lasted 2500 hours typically. The Phoebus cartel’s members all agreed to reduce the lifespan to just 1000 hours.
 
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Offline tom66

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2021, 05:15:37 pm »
There have been a few cases of planned obsolescence over the years.  However, I think the key issue is that people don't generally re-purchase products from suppliers who produce unreliable goods.  Quality is seen as one of the more important factors that consumers consider when purchasing a product, and while price is also a critical factor, that creates a balancing act for manufacturers.

For instance, while I am sure car manufacturers have considered making unreliable cars to sell more cars,  they ultimately spend an enormous amount of money making their vehicles last for a long period of time,  because it is bad customer image if their product only lasts 7 years. 
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2021, 06:14:16 pm »
There have been a few cases of planned obsolescence over the years.  However, I think the key issue is that people don't generally re-purchase products from suppliers who produce unreliable goods.  Quality is seen as one of the more important factors that consumers consider when purchasing a product, and while price is also a critical factor, that creates a balancing act for manufacturers.
Precisely. That's why I think 99.99% of the claimed "planned obsolescence" actually isn't: what customer is going to buy from you again, if your product failed so quickly? (The entire premise of planned obsolescence is forcing the consumer to buy from you over and over again, but they won't if your product sucks.)

Hence why when it really is planned obsolescence, it requires a cartel behind it to make sure nobody makes any product that is noticeably better.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2021, 06:28:37 pm »
Normally, I’m the first person to interject that planned obsolescence is practically entirely a myth. But in the case of light bulbs, we have a documented, official case of colluded planned obsolescence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

Before it, light bulbs lasted 2500 hours typically. The Phoebus cartel’s members all agreed to reduce the lifespan to just 1000 hours.

Dissolved in 1939, so not really relevant to most of us here. Planned obsolescence is not a complete myth, there have been cases of it, but it is not the reason light bulbs in the tungsten filament era last the length of time they do. There is a very predictable relationship between voltage, filament temperature, lifespan and efficiency. The hotter you run the filament, the more efficient the lamp and the shorter it lasts. Reducing the voltage even a modest amount results in a dramatic increase in lifespan with an equally dramatic reduction in efficiency as the spectrum is shifted toward IR.

There was one more modern case I'm aware of where bulbs were lasting too long and were later changed to reduce this. GE with their Bonus Line and Westinghouse with their Lifeguard series of mercury vapor lamps developed an electrode formulation that resulted in white deposits in the arc tube instead of the typical light absorbing black deposits. These were very good quality lamps in general, made during the peak of mercury vapor lighting and it was found that instead of lasting a few years they were lasting decades, there are a few documented cases of these lamps lasting well over 100,000 hours. My grandparents had a barn light with a GE Bonus Line lamp in it that my grandpa put up in the late 70s and it was still running dusk till dawn on the original lamp as of a few years ago when the house was sold after my grandmother passed away. By the 1980s both manufactures had gone back to electrode formulations that caused the arc tubes to blacken, although that was also around the time when high pressure sodium was really being pushed and mercury took a back seat so this may have been about cost reduction more than deliberately reducing lamp life, I don't know.
 

Offline Sal Ammoniac

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2021, 06:54:24 pm »
I did recently pick up a Philips Hue "White Ambiance" bulb which is pretty cool, it is dimmable from full brightness to a faint glow and the color temperature is tunable from a warm cozy 2200k up to icy blue 6500k daylight.

I'm an amateur astronomer and I replaced all of my outdoor lights (about a dozen of them) with Phillips Hue LED bulbs. Normally, I have them set to white to light up my courtyard at night, but when I have my telescopes out, I set them all to red and dim them so they don't affect my night vision much. No more tripping on things in the dark. They work great in this application.
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Offline Sal Ammoniac

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2021, 06:56:45 pm »
On the other end of the spectrum are photoflood bulbs, I have a few of those and they have a rated life of 6(!) hours but they are very bright and produce a lot of light for the power they consume, again by incandescent standards.

You forgot about flashbulbs, which have a rated life of a few milliseconds.  :-DD
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Offline tom66

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2021, 09:31:12 pm »
Precisely. That's why I think 99.99% of the claimed "planned obsolescence" actually isn't: what customer is going to buy from you again, if your product failed so quickly? (The entire premise of planned obsolescence is forcing the consumer to buy from you over and over again, but they won't if your product sucks.)

Yes, and I don't envy some consumer electronics manufacturers, faced with the dilemma of cheap-or-quality.  Make a quality produce but charge twice as much for it and no one will buy.  Make a cheap product that falls apart five years later and, well, no one will buy from you again.

You can clearly see when cost decisions have been made in product design.  The saying goes that any fool can build a bridge for a billion dollars, it takes an engineer to make it happen for a million.

This is also one reason I am very strongly in favour of products having a reparability rating and a requirement for parts and service manuals to be readily available, as it will reduce any *unplanned obsolescence* effects.
 
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Offline engrguy42

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2021, 11:47:33 pm »
This "conservation voltage reduction" thing has been around (in the US at least) for 10 or 20 years. And as far as I can tell, it hasn't saved the world.

It's one of those nice ideas that make people feel good, but in terms of implementation and evaluation it's freakin' COMPLICATED, and may not be worth it. Keep in mind that utilities are REQUIRED to make sure the voltage at their customers is within state limits. ALL customers. Which means if you go around lowering your normal voltage on the feeders you now need to re-engineer the equipment you have installed to make sure that the worst case voltage on all the circuits doesn't fall below the mandated lower limits, especially for the guy at the very end of the circuit where normal voltage hangs around the lower limit in the best of cases.

They have transformers with tap changers to regulate voltage, as well as separate voltage regulators, as well as automatically and manually switched capacitors to manage voltage at all points on the circuits. And those voltage profiles vary by time of day and what kind of load is running and location on the circuit. FREAKIN' COMPLICATED !!! Which means you now have to spend lots of money to re-engineer and re-evaluate the circuit design and modify/add installed regulation and monitoring equipment. Big bucks.

Oh, and by the way, who pays those big bucks??

And depending on the type of load (industrial, residential, commercial, etc.), the benefits of the lower voltage could be either negligible or tiny, and not worth the investment. And unless you install a bunch of fancy monitoring equipment you'll never know exactly the the benefit was, if any.

Anyway, it seems like a strange time to be trying to convince the world that a tiny bit of perceived energy efficiency is what's really going to save the world.    :palm:
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 12:13:49 am by engrguy42 »
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Fix the voltage campaign (Australia)
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2021, 12:20:33 am »
There have been a few cases of planned obsolescence over the years.  However, I think the key issue is that people don't generally re-purchase products from suppliers who produce unreliable goods.  Quality is seen as one of the more important factors that consumers consider when purchasing a product, and while price is also a critical factor, that creates a balancing act for manufacturers.

For instance, while I am sure car manufacturers have considered making unreliable cars to sell more cars,  they ultimately spend an enormous amount of money making their vehicles last for a long period of time,  because it is bad customer image if their product only lasts 7 years.

Manufacturers have a perfect "out", especially with household items-------- they simply reduce the quality of the "prestige" brands, so that they are just as bad as the "El Cheapo" option.

The  mugs, sorry, "valued customers", sick of the short life of the latter, then pay a premium for a "Sunbeam", "Philips", etc, which doesn't last any longer, costs the importer the same amount, but retails for three times as much!
Now that all the "grand old names" have been whored off, that isn't hard.

Customers eventually accept that they might as well buy the "El Cheapo".
They are still paying more, overall, as they have to replace each device much more frequently, but are no longer getting suckered in by the "premium" brands.

Interestingly, there are still a few well engineered "El Cheapos" around, which have quite respectable lifetimes.
Finding them is the hard part!

I got suckered when I bought a "Wertheim" vacuum cleaner, a so-called "top of the line" model which was purported to be "German designed".(After all, it had a nice "pretend" German name,)

All I can say is the designers had never seen the inside of an Engineering classroom.
More likely drawn on the back of a placemat at the local boozer!

Needless to say, it was bloody useless, never operating for more than10 minutes before overheating, the hose continually blocking because the dumbos ran the wiring for the "power head" loose though it.
(Our little 15 year old Toshiba had wires running in the hose, too, but they were embedded in the wall.)

The Wertheim was chucked into the shed, & the poor, old, long suffering Toshiba put back into service.
After a few attempts to fix the POS, it went to the verge rubbish pickup.

After some years, the venerable Toshiba finally failed, & was replaced by a $A50 "Ozito"canister vacuum cleaner, which has worked admirably for several years.



 


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