folding plug

[siliconmix]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17131578

[vk6zgo]

EEEK!!!

[david77]

Boy, am I happy we've got the good old Schuko & Europlug here. No need to fold them   .

[Balaur]

Boy, am I happy we've got the good old Schuko & Europlug here. No need to fold them   .

Plus, if you step on them (yes, even on the bulky but pleasantly round Schuko) you don't hurt yourself (too much).
And, let's be honest, the Schuko-type connection is confidently solid.

But, I personally like the Danish plugs. How you can say no to a face like this?:

[IanB]

Well of course you can appreciate such a thing when you see how compact North American plugs and power adapters can be. For instance, here's a picture of the iPhone USB charger with a UK plug next to it for comparison:



The UK plug is empty, but the iPhone charger has a whole switching power supply inside a case little bigger than a sugar cube...

[G7PSK]

The whole idea of the folding plug is you can put it in your pocket, a shuko would be just as uncomfortable in your pocket.
But I must agree that in some ways a shuko is better than a British 13 amp square pin in that the tracking length is greater in damp conditions but they do tend to be made of very brittle plastic and crack easily. The US plug I think is an absolute horror and an accident waiting to happen most likely designed by Micky Mouse. I have a number of plugs and sockets from around the world in my collection. 

[david77]

That's what the Europlug is for. There are some very compact USB chargers around
http://www.google.de/products/catalog?hl=de&gs_nf=1&cp=8&gs_id=2z&xhr=t&q=usb+ladeger%C3%A4t&pq=usb+charger&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1280&bih=773&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=1007815125265524925&sa=X&ei=DVxLT86gLNHGswbntfiUBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CHgQ8gIwAg

There are Schuko plugs made from less brittle material these days, even some made out of rubber for use on building sites  .

I kind of like the UK plug, it looks very imposing but on the other hand it's a bit over the top. Those contacts look like they could carry considerably more current than 13A. That's probably why you can find them here in 12V PV or battery powered installations like garden sheds on allotments or remote huts in the Alps.

[PetrosA]

I think the British plugs were originally designed as a last line of defense against a land invasion by the Nazis for a project called "Morning Star."

I'm generally a fan of the Schuko plug design, but it's greatest weakness (and typical in the way German engineers often overlook the obvious in their designs...) is that it can be used in an unearthed outlet, negating the entire intent of an earthed safety connection. A second, minor gripe I have with most European Schuko type plugs (other than ones with an earth pin) is that they can be used without regard to polarity.

Granted, the greatest weakness of US plugs is that they're not finger safe, but that could be addressed at some point. At least now they're making the receptacles child-proof...

[david77]

As far as I know the unearthed outlets that were in use before the Schuko plug came into widespread use have holes with a smaller diameter than the earthed Schuko outlets. I think the old ones were 4mm and Schuko is 5mm so they wouldn't fit without force. Granted, that is a bit of a small safety margin.
But there should be very few unearthed outlets left today as earthed types have been mandatory for decades at least in Germany. I personally know of only one unearthed outlet in my grandfather's house behind a huge bookshelf. It's been there since 1953 and has not been changed because of the shelf.

As for polarization I'm still not convinced that has any benefits  . We probably have a different view on that matter here.

[8086]

The thing has lost it's appeal now they changed the direction of the fold out wings. The main thing I liked was that you could supposedly do this:





...but now you can't. It's nice and small, but that's just not enough for me, I have been fine with the normal size plugs.

[wkb]

Well of course you can appreciate such a thing when you see how compact North American plugs and power adapters can be. For instance, here's a picture of the iPhone USB charger with a UK plug next to it for comparison:



The UK plug is empty, but the iPhone charger has a whole switching power supply inside a case little bigger than a sugar cube...

Nah, the UK plug is normally (always?) not empty, it has its own builtin fuse

[ejeffrey]

As far as I know the unearthed outlets that were in use before the Schuko plug came into widespread use have holes with a smaller diameter than the earthed Schuko outlets. I think the old ones were 4mm and Schuko is 5mm so they wouldn't fit without force. Granted, that is a bit of a small safety margin.

In the Netherlands unearthed outlets are still quite common.  They have the same size holes as the shucko plug.  Whats worse, the non-earthed outlets are only recessed a couple of mm, so they aren't finger safe either.

[G7PSK]

The Northern European plugs hove slightly larger pins than the southern European plugs the southern ones are also slightly further apart but not so much as you cannot force them into a northern sockets as they will bend inwards slightly without to much effort. The UK plugs were designed in the sixty's there was some form of competition a lot of people at that time thought that we should adopt the shuko or French design at the time but not wanting designed or made abroad won the day and we ended up with three square pins to replace several sizes of round pins.  I cannot see why we did not just put fuses into the 15 amp round pin of the day and do away with the 2 amp 2 pin 5 amp  and 10 amp 3 pin that were also in use at the time. would have made more sense. The 13 amp is also used in Zimbabwe I am not sure about South Africa,   The 5 and ten amp round pin plugs are still used in things like stage lighting.

[ron]

As for polarization I'm still not convinced that has any benefits  . We probably have a different view on that matter here.

Measure the voltage of the tip of a soldering station iron to neutral.  Then switch the polarity of the plug (or outlet) and measure again.
At least on my Hakko and Weller stations you can get a big surprise if you try to solder a grounded wire when the mains polarity is switched.  Unless you like welding.

[Balaur]

Measure the voltage of the tip of a soldering station iron to neutral.  Then switch the polarity of the plug (or outlet) and measure again.
At least on my Hakko and Weller stations you can get a big surprise if you try to solder a grounded wire when the mains polarity is switched.  Unless you like welding.

The behavior you presented has absolutely no reasons to exist. Things should not happen in the way you described. There is absolutely no benefit for this.

Could you please double check?

[Neilm]

Well of course you can appreciate such a thing when you see how compact North American plugs and power adapters can be. For instance, here's a picture of the iPhone USB charger with a UK plug next to it for comparison:

The UK plug is empty, but the iPhone charger has a whole switching power supply inside a case little bigger than a sugar cube...

Nah, the UK plug is normally (always?) not empty, it has its own builtin fuse

A standard BS1363 should always have a fuse. This fuse should conform to BS1362. If the plug is an adapter, then I believe different parts of the standard apply and you don't need the fuse (or at least you don't need it to be user replaceable)

Neil

[ron]

Measure the voltage of the tip of a soldering station iron to neutral.  Then switch the polarity of the plug (or outlet) and measure again.
At least on my Hakko and Weller stations you can get a big surprise if you try to solder a grounded wire when the mains polarity is switched.  Unless you like welding.

The behavior you presented has absolutely no reasons to exist. Things should not happen in the way you described. There is absolutely no benefit for this.

Could you please double check?

It's true.  Once I plugged a Weller station into a quad box that had neutral and hot swapped and the sparks flew when the tip contacted ground.  I metered a 888 Hakko and it is not isolated either. 

[IanB]

It's true.  Once I plugged a Weller station into a quad box that had neutral and hot swapped and the sparks flew when the tip contacted ground.  I metered a 888 Hakko and it is not isolated either.

I don't see how it can be true unless the iron is faulty--and if it is that faulty it should not be used and should be disposed of.

The tip of the iron is an exposed metal part. It must therefore be fitted with a three pin plug with a ground/earth connection, and the exposed metal parts of the iron must be securely connected to the earth/ground wire. All of the live parts of the iron (such as the heating element) should be insulated from the exposed metal parts. If you swap the live and neutral wires nothing should happen unless the iron is faulty, and then if it is a fuse should blow or a breaker should trip.

You can get sparks from a low voltage like 12 V or so, but if you have 12 V on the metal parts of the iron it says the ground/earth connection is not very good.

[gxti]

In my opinion, the fact that the US plug hasn't killed millions and been legislated into oblivion is evidence that it is safe enough. If it's possible to make the plugs "finger safe" without forcing everyone to buy new receptacles (hmm, job creation!) then that would be good, I suppose.

One thing I don't understand is why polarized but unearthed plugs need to exist. I guess it reduces the harm from sticking your finger into a light socket since the big part is tied to neutral. But neutral can still give you a mild shock in odd conditions, and you can't rely on it as a reference point for comms because it moves with the load on the wires. Getting rid of polarized plugs was probably a good move on the European's part.

[Pentium100]

I also don't get why polarized plugs need to exist.

If the device absolutely needs to be connected to earth ground (or it will blow up) - use an grounded plug (Schuko) and state so in the manual and on the device.
If the device does not need to be connected to earth ground then use an unearthed plug and treat both wires as "live" - do not connect any of them directly to a part that can be touched while the device is in operation. And it seems that a lot of devices manage that - both wires go trough the switch to the primary of the transformer or to an insulated part of a SMPS.
If the device would work better with a ground connection (but won't blow up if not grounded), then use a grounded plug, but still treat "live" and "neutral" as if they were both "live" - after all, if I ever plug that device in a 240V socket in the US, both wires will be "live".

In my country, if the wiring is old (~20 years - still Soviet style), then there will be no earth ground at all - grounded Soviet plugs look similar to Australian plugs and are not compatible with the ungrounded sockets (which look like Schuko but the base is round and without notches). As such, no "home" devices that I know of required ground connections.

i have only one problem with Schuko - it is very hard to pull out of some sockets.

[Bored@Work]

i have only one problem with Schuko - it is very hard to pull out of some sockets.

Evoline Plugs have a lever and a slightly moving head, making it easy to pull them out. 25 seconds into the video. But nothing comes for free, they can be a pain in multiple socket outlets, and are really expensive.

[david77]

i have only one problem with Schuko - it is very hard to pull out of some sockets.

But surely that's a good thing. A Schuko plug does not come loose from a bit of movement of the lead, it does not fall half out of the socket just from the weight of the cable it is connected to.
Both things that I have encountered with the AUS style plugs and sockets. The sockets were probably a bit worn out, it was an old house, but you will not find this even with 50+ years old Schukos.

[G7PSK]

In my opinion, the fact that the US plug hasn't killed millions and been legislated into oblivion is evidence that it is safe enough. If it's possible to make the plugs "finger safe" without forcing everyone to buy new receptacles (hmm, job creation!) then that would be good, I suppose.

One thing I don't understand is why polarized but unearthed plugs need to exist. I guess it reduces the harm from sticking your finger into a light socket since the big part is tied to neutral. But neutral can still give you a mild shock in odd conditions, and you can't rely on it as a reference point for comms because it moves with the load on the wires. Getting rid of polarized plugs was probably a good move on the European's part.

I read somewhere that the US has the highest number of electrocutions per capita of the western world.

The reason for polarised plugs is screw type light bulbs where the fingers can come into contact with the outside of the bulb while still live, The neutral should always be at earth potential if not there is a ground fault in the system, the center tap of the transformer should be grounded as is the center of the alternator (poly-phase system) as should the neutral where it enters the building and at points along the way,Live + neutral is one phase plus neutral in most distribution systems. What I have seen in the US is the low volt and high volt and ground all sharing the same wire, the top one going along the poles, something that is not allowed in the UK and as far as I know anywhere else in Europe at least I have not seen it in western Europe I've not been to Eastern Europe. In very dry conditions earthing stakes can develop a high resistance and it can be an idea to put water on them, Something I have had to do in many cases where I have installed power generators.

[david77]

I hear that argument about screw type Edison lamp fittings but I can not see where the problem is. I must've seen, used and installed hundreds of different Edison fittings and it is not possible to get a shock on the screw thread of a bulb without sticking something thin between the lamp and the fitting on purpose. The screw part of the bulb is completely covered when the lamp is inserted enough to make contact with the outer contact of the fitting. You only need to loosen the lamp a bit for the outer contact to open.
I'm not trying to be difficult here but I really don't see where the danger is supposed to be.

And sticking your fingers into a live lamp socket surely has to count as extreme stupidity. The UK's Ba22d socket would give you the same nasty shock then.

Maybe US Edison lamps are different to ours?

Utility poles carrying HT (11kV?), three-phase domestic (3x240V), telephone and broadband/cable TV all at once are also quite common in Australia. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be allowed in Germany either.

[G7PSK]

The problem with Edison screw type bulbs is when unscrewing them when partials out and if the power is on or a single pole switch is used and the plug is not polarized the screw could be live and fingers come into contact with the screw cap.
The US system that I was referring to the 11KV and 110 v are using the same wire as neutral and ground so if the earth stakes dry up or corrode you have the potential of 11 KV coming straight into the house, and as I saw this in Arizona and Florida both states which have very sandy soils and are not exactly known as being wet earth bonding is something which could fail.