EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: Neomys Sapiens on June 04, 2018, 10:26:31 pm
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Does anyone know a font containing the 'tripod' sign, as used in the UK to denote army property?
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Can you give me an example of the symbol you are talking about?
I may be able to make you a custom font.
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1) It is not a "font."
2) Show us what you and we may help you find that special character.
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I suspect this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_arrow
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from that page:
"It is currently a criminal offence in the United Kingdom to reproduce the broad arrow without authority (in the same way as it is an offence to reproduce hallmarks). Section 4 of the Public Stores Act 1875 makes it illegal to use the "broad arrow" on any goods without permission.[9][10]"
Going to need to hear more about what OP is up to.
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Strangely apt:
(http://www.penandclink.com/mjmuseum/images/ajakt.jpg)
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You have not defined the character zone of your "font." If it is 5x8, then something like this might do:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/font-with-special-character-sought/?action=dlattach;attach=448168;image (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/font-with-special-character-sought/?action=dlattach;attach=448168;image)
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Here it is: (attached)
The prohibition applies to marking things, not to explanatory use in a document.
@jpanhalt: What do you mean by 'it is not a font'? What I need is a trpresentation as a special character in a ttf font, NOT A GRAPHIC. Scaling with the text, insertion by 'Symbol' in Word.
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Just make it yourself. >:D
https://fontforge.github.io/en-US/
'Slight learning curve' required, ha ha. (The sensation is much like running full tilt into a cliff face. True story.)
https://apps.timwhitlock.info/unicode/inspect
Search finds nothing for broadarrow or broad arrow.
https://unicode.org/
I'm amazed there doesn't seem to be a Unicode assignment for this. Hundreds of stupid emojis ( https://unicode.org/emoji/charts/full-emoji-list.html ) and all Chinese characters, but nothing for a famous British symbol that's existed for centuries?
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I've had a quick look and the closest I can find are some arrows in Wingdings and Wingdings3
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Does it have to be vertical? (Here (https://www.abfont.com/arrow-crafter.font))
(https://www.abfont.com/sample/2015/10/06/arrow-crafter/Arrow%20Crafter.otf.png)
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You could just...you know...
/|\ \|/
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Unicode "Supplementary Mathematical Operators" block has code U+2A5A "logical and with middle stem", which looks exactly like that: ⩚. Perhaps you could use that?
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Unicode Character 'CANADIAN SYLLABICS CARRIER WO' (U+15D1)
(https://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/15d1/canadian_syllabics_carrier_wo.png)
https://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/15d1/index.htm (https://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/15d1/index.htm)
Also learned that this mark (made with a hatchet on 24-inch mast-grade trees) was one of the origins of the American Revolution. The British came to rely on eastern white pine when they could no longer get Baltic timber for masts on their sailing ships. But they exploited their monopoly and paid a fraction of the open-market price which was just another of the growing list of abuses that led to the rebellion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_arrow#In_the_American_colonies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_arrow#In_the_American_colonies)
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Here it is: (attached)
The prohibition applies to marking things, not to explanatory use in a document.
@jpanhalt: What do you mean by 'it is not a font'? What I need is a trpresentation as a special character in a ttf font, NOT A GRAPHIC. Scaling with the text, insertion by 'Symbol' in Word.
Hi there 'Neomys Sapiens'. Have not seen a further response from you.....
Regarding one of the Images you supplied, being....
(baspecformwr-003.jpg)
I can create this, as an inclusion within a standard Windows font if you like ??
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@GlennSprigg
Well, that would be great. I suggest using 'Martin Vogel's Symbols' (Marvosym.ttf), as I know that this guy has no objections to that and small scale (semi)professional usage.
I need it for the recording of markings and maybe for a publication and do not intend to commit a fraud against any organ of the UK.
The question remains how I could thank you adequately for undertaking this task.
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@GlennSprigg, I'd be very interested to hear a step by step description of how you go about that. Which font editor do you use?
I mentioned fontforge and cliffs. But this task seems like a nice simple test case. So I fetched Marvosym.ttf and the current portable app version of fontforge, set that up. Can open Marvosym in fontforge. Now here's running into that cliff face again. My god that's a complicated app. No need for anyone to explain to me that it's complicated because font file tech naturally is complicated, I know.
But I do need to learn how to do this. And it's a useful way to procrastinate to avoid doing something else I'm supposed to be doing. So, manuals reading time. Don't hold your breath.
20180610 Update. Ow, that cliff hurts! For anyone else interested in playing with fontforge, here's some links:
https://github.com/fontforge/ (https://github.com/fontforge/) Entry point to Fontforge on Git
https://github.com/fontforge/fontforge.github.io (https://github.com/fontforge/fontforge.github.io) Fontforge website repository
https://portableapps.com/apps/utilities/fontforge-portable (https://portableapps.com/apps/utilities/fontforge-portable) Current: Ver 2017-07-31 for Win
Installed in ... \Editors\Fontforge_2017
http://fontforge.github.io/en-US/ (http://fontforge.github.io/en-US/) Getting started
http://designwithfontforge.com/en-US/ (http://designwithfontforge.com/en-US/) Book on using fontforge. PDF
http://fontforge.github.io/en-US/documentation/ (http://fontforge.github.io/en-US/documentation/)
http://fontforge.github.io/en-US/documentation/interface/ (http://fontforge.github.io/en-US/documentation/interface/) User interface
http://fontforge.github.io/en-US/tutorials/overview/ (http://fontforge.github.io/en-US/tutorials/overview/) Overview
In the downloaded fontforge source code package:
fontforge-master/doc/html/index.html Old doc by 'AP', maintained 2000-2009.
--> User & Reference manual
https://fontforge.github.io/overview.html (https://fontforge.github.io/overview.html) Same as above. "part of old website"
fontforge-master\doc\html/fontforge-tutorial.pdf Dated 2007, but a very useful tutorial.
https://fontforge.github.io/autotrace.html (https://fontforge.github.io/autotrace.html) Autotracing bitmaps in FontForge.
Extract: FontForge does not have a native autotrace, but it will happily use the
output of two freely available programs which do autotracing. These are:
- Peter Selinger's potrace http://potrace.sf.net/ (http://potrace.sf.net/)
- Martin Weber's autotrace http://sourceforge.net/projects/autotrace/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/autotrace/)
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@GlennSprigg
Well, that would be great. I suggest using 'Martin Vogel's Symbols' (Marvosym.ttf), as I know that this guy has no objections to that and small scale (semi)professional usage.
I need it for the recording of markings and maybe for a publication and do not intend to commit a fraud against any organ of the UK.
The question remains how I could thank you adequately for undertaking this task.
No problems mate!... I've got your supplied Font now, (and your symbol specs page), and will sort it out
over the next couple of days! I'm only 'online' here every 2 days or so, and I'm busy designing artwork for
my 'missus' for her embroidery machine. I'm retired, and it's all just 'fun' now ! :)
If I can help someone else, then I've added some worth/value to my existence !!! (It's not a 'chore').
TerraHertz :- You also mentioned that..........
"I'd be very interested to hear a step by step description of how you go about that. Which font editor do you use?".
.......... and ..........
"But I do need to learn how to do this. And it's a useful way to procrastinate to avoid doing something else......"
Thank you for your interest too ! Excellent idea mate. I will mention various 'products' while I "do this deed", as
well as include a description of what I do/am doing, with screen-shots too. Maybe I'll put all this in another Topic??
Yes, 'Font' work can be like sitting in the cockpit of a Jumbo-Jet, but it can be 'simplified' ;)
(P.S. I was going to 'procrastinate', but I decided to put it off ! 8) )
Here's a 'quick' interim prelude.... Start with an existing (& royalty-free font of course! haha) Font, where 99% of
the 'Formatting' work is done for you. Then find some 'obscure' symbols/characters that no one cares about, or
even know that are there!... Re-design them, using certain protocols/restraints, and then re-save them !!!
Note down simplified access to such 'characters', like "Alt+176" for example. Bye for now... Glenn
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@Neomys Sapiens
It's interesting that the symbol in that milspec document is drawn so inaccurately, by the dimensions stated.
Below is a (photoshop) construction of the symbol, to the numerical specs. Overlaid on the one in the document.
Made so I can do the font symbol accurately. Now I have a correct bitmap image, to import into the can of worms aka fontforge.
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I suspect that they scanned the older documents without too much care. :-//
Now for the history of the symbol: I've come across a different version, but I'm striving right now to relocate the source. According to it, this symbol, denoting army property, was derived from the rifles stacked to pyramides of three when resting.
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According to it, this symbol, denoting army property, was derived from the rifles stacked to pyramides of three when resting.
That symbol was used by the Birmingham Small Arms company. Although it might have been found on army property, I think it is just a coincidence that it resembles the broadarrow symbol.
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Note that Noto Sans Symbol (https://www.google.com/get/noto/) font contains the U+2A5A glyph, and Noto Sans Canadian Aboriginal (https://www.google.com/get/noto/) font contains the U+15D1 glyph. The usage guidelines are here (https://www.google.com/get/noto/help/guidelines/), and the license is SIL Open Font License version 1.1 (http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?item_id=OFL-FAQ_web&_sc=1), which is a free, permissive license. (No cost, and you can use it anywhere you like, including commercial publications and such.) I do believe the Noto Serif fonts also have the glyphs, but I don't have them installed, so I cannot verify.
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Note that Noto Sans Symbol (https://www.google.com/get/noto/) font contains the U+2A5A glyph, and Noto Sans Canadian Aboriginal (https://www.google.com/get/noto/) font contains the U+15D1 glyph.
Noto Sans Symbols does not go up to 2A5A. Did you mean some other font?
NotoSansSymbols2-Regular also doesn't have anything similar.
Noto Sans Canadian Aboriginal 15D1 is not the correct glyph.
What I'm up to: can easily create the correct glyph in fontforge, in the suggested font. But to get it to map to a specific code... arrgh. The character table is NOT a simple sequential indexed array. I get WHY it isn't, but there's something I very deeply don't understand yet. Probably multiple somethings.
Also fontforge is a fine example of flakey patched-together idiosyncratic buggy badly documented open-source coding. You don't want to see my 'issues' list.
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Noto Sans Symbols does not go up to 2A5A.
The older version from Ubuntu repositories (https://packages.ubuntu.com/xenial/all/fonts-noto-unhinted/download) does include it (in NotoSansSymbols-Regular.ttf). You can download that version (perfectly legally, it's the official upstream git repository) here (https://github.com/googlei18n/noto-fonts/blob/b8029f76007e223ebcb4dddf6ff282a56ceed363/unhinted/NotoSansSymbols-Regular.ttf).
Noto Sans Canadian Aboriginal 15D1 is not the correct glyph.
The U+2A5A (http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2a5a/index.htm) is only slightly different to U+15D1 (http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/15d1/index.htm), so you might not find a perfect match. There are also stylistic differences; the sans-serif fonts (like Noto Sans) do not have those small serifs at the lower inner ends of the "legs".
Also fontforge is a fine example of flakey patched-together idiosyncratic buggy badly documented open-source coding.
It is just crap code. It isn't stable even on Linux.
I wonder if Birdfont (https://birdfont.org/) is any better? I haven't tried it myself.
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maybe this is of help... i created a quick and dirty ttf font with just that glyph roughly following the image from wikipedia on the 'B' character. It' sometimes easier to do this rather than editing existing fonts
looking around there seems to be many variations on the style
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maybe this is of help... i created a quick and dirty ttf font with just that glyph roughly following the image from wikipedia on the 'B' character. It' sometimes easier to do this rather than editing existing fonts
looking around there seems to be many variations on the style
Pity that's not the glyph Neomys Sapiens wants. See https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/font-with-special-character-sought/msg1587283/#msg1587283 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/font-with-special-character-sought/msg1587283/#msg1587283) - the 3 page spec doc he posted. The true name of the glyph is "pheon".
Also, what tool are you using for font editing? (Nevermind: "Generated by Fontographer 4.1" in the binary.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontographer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontographer)
https://old.fontlab.com/font-editor/fontographer/ (https://old.fontlab.com/font-editor/fontographer/) US$408.99 Ouch, out of my reach.
I'd really like to hear comments on the quality and clarity of utils other than Fontforge, which is a can of disorganised worms. For a purpose I have (unrelated to Neomys' glyph needs), I'd actually pay money for a general font editor that works and has decent documentation.
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ahh sorry i thought we wanted the one from wiki
i can follow the design rules in that scan, it shouldn't be a problem to change it. It will have to be tomorrow now though as i'm off to work in a bit
i'm using a very very old windows app called Fontographer (Macromedia/Adobe), it's old and a bit clunky but it works fine for doing quick stuff like this... back in the day when i was working for a software company i modified a monotype font for a terminal emulation app and used it to make custom characters, alter hinting information and the like.
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ok, i think it should be right now. The bars are parallel, L/10 and at 60deg
bitmap, TTF font and EPS versions in the attached zip
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In answer to my prior offering, to 'Neomys Sapiens', I've made a temp Font for you !!
Instead of incorporating it within the Font you supplied me, (tech reasons), I've created a new mostly
blank Font, with 2 versions of the 'BroadArrow'. One with sharp corners & one with rounded corners.
These are accessed purely by pressing the lowercase 'z' and 'x' keys.....
https://nosilverspoons.000webhostapp.com/eevblog/BroadArrows-zx.zip (https://nosilverspoons.000webhostapp.com/eevblog/BroadArrows-zx.zip)
I simply started with you original image file....
(https://nosilverspoons.000webhostapp.com/eevblog/baspecformwr-003.jpg)
Edited that to create individual bitmaps, and then used them for 'tracing' in 'Vector' software.
I used that 'Vector' to import into the 'Font Glyph', as well as trying to 'trace' within 'FontForge'.
The result looks like this, in 'Wordpad'......
(https://nosilverspoons.000webhostapp.com/eevblog/Wordpad.jpg)
To 'TerraHertz' ..... (Re: your prior request to me), I am part way through creating a 'step by step'
description, but it is being based on the following......
I have/do use various software other than 'FontForge', like 'Studio-5 Font Studio', & 'High-Logic Font Creator'.
(For various reasons of power & functionality). My older version of 'FontForge' (which I was'nt keen on), was
way out of date, so I installed the latest version. I MAINLY did this, as I would need to supply info regarding
Free/OpenSource software only. This includes the in conjunction utilization of 'Adobe-Illustrator' for Vector
work, for which one can now substitute with the Free 'Inkscape' software !! for Font integration.
Hope you don't mind waiting another day or two.....
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P.S. ...... "Inkscape" (for 'Vector' creations) is now quite well advanced, and has a LOT of powerful
tools under the selections of 'Extensions', and off of that... 'Typography'.... saving a LOT of work....
However, it needs some detailed discussions/explanations, and then all is clear !!!! :)
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That's absolutely ok - except that I can't access it.
I'm getting a 'SEC_ERROR_REVOKED_CERTIFICATE'
What to do?
Got it and thank you very much!
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Neomys Sapiens ... Glad I could help.....
I'm curious about your (prior) error about.... "SEC_ERROR_REVOKED_CERTIFICATE"...
I used one of my temp servers for the data... Did you originally see the Images' at least ?
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maybe this is of help... i created a quick and dirty ttf font with just that glyph roughly following the image from wikipedia on the 'B' character. It' sometimes easier to do this rather than editing existing fonts
looking around there seems to be many variations on the style
Pity that's not the glyph Neomys Sapiens wants. See https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/font-with-special-character-sought/msg1587283/#msg1587283 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/font-with-special-character-sought/msg1587283/#msg1587283) - the 3 page spec doc he posted. The true name of the glyph is "pheon".
Also, what tool are you using for font editing? (Nevermind: "Generated by Fontographer 4.1" in the binary.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontographer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontographer)
https://old.fontlab.com/font-editor/fontographer/ (https://old.fontlab.com/font-editor/fontographer/) US$408.99 Ouch, out of my reach.
I'd really like to hear comments on the quality and clarity of utils other than Fontforge, which is a can of disorganised worms. For a purpose I have (unrelated to Neomys' glyph needs), I'd actually pay money for a general font editor that works and has decent documentation.
Would you still like the 'Step-By-Step' mate ?? It's covering all the basics, and all that needs considering. (At a simple level...)
I was compiling a '.pdf' file with all the basics, for you?....
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Neomys Sapiens ... Glad I could help.....
I'm curious about your (prior) error about.... "SEC_ERROR_REVOKED_CERTIFICATE"...
I used one of my temp servers for the data... Did you originally see the Images' at least ?
Can't be specific here, but it is a concurrency issue with multiple connections.
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Would you still like the 'Step-By-Step' mate ?? It's covering all the basics, and all that needs considering. (At a simple level...)
I was compiling a '.pdf' file with all the basics, for you?....
Thanks, but no rush. I'd still appreciate it if you could post it in this thread eventually when you're done, but since OP now has what he wants, my own fonts-adventure is no longer relevant to this thread.
I'm currently reading up on the truetype font file structure specs. Since the objective for me is to understand how all this works. Enough to build an extensive custom font of special symbols, to be loaded by html/JS files that construct a fascia of a virtual keyboard (and other instrument fascias.)
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goog: truetype font file format specification
http://www.truetype-typography.com/ttspec.htm (http://www.truetype-typography.com/ttspec.htm)
TrueType font files are made up of a number of tables, some mandatory (such as the 'glyf' table containing glyph outlines), others optional (like the 'kern' table). TrueType was designed this way to make the format extensible. Microsoft has taken full advantage of this in defining tables for the TrueType Open and, with Adobe, the OpenType initiative.
https://developer.apple.com/fonts/ (https://developer.apple.com/fonts/)
TrueType and AAT
Specifications for the TrueType Font Format. Apple Advanced Typography (AAT) Font Feature Registry for advanced font rendering.
Apple TrueType Reference Manual https://developer.apple.com/fonts/TrueType-Reference-Manual/ (https://developer.apple.com/fonts/TrueType-Reference-Manual/)
Bah. One of those online, many pages html 'manuals'. Can't find a pdf of it.
http://lefonds.pagesperso-orange.fr/old/html_e/typo_efr.html (http://lefonds.pagesperso-orange.fr/old/html_e/typo_efr.html)
typographical resources (From 1998, but interesting historical info)
... and lots more.
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By the way, the fonts you created from the images in that document from Neomys Sapiens, do not conform with the actual content of those specification documents. The images are drawn 'too fat' and don't match the numerical dimensions shown on that same diagram. See the photoshop screencap I posted earlier, in which the light gray background is that doc drawing, and the black foreground is the precisely calculated correct glyph. Accurate to about one pixel in 1000 overall glyph box. Ha ha, that must be the first time I've used trig functions on a calculator in quite a while.
The photoshop file: http://everist.org/pics/misc/Pheon_5.psd (http://everist.org/pics/misc/Pheon_5.psd) 4.2 MB (photoshop 5.5)
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Ok TerraHertz ... I think I get the 'gist' of what you want to do....
and yea I guess I 'cheated' a bit by assuming the 'Page' he supplied was to scale... :)
Regarding all the tech specs you mentioned... of course there is MUCH more to be considered
in creating a Commercially acceptable 'Font' and all that goes on 'behind-the-scenes' :)
I just tried to keep it as simple as I could, for what was asked.....
Keep in mind though, 'cubic' 'glyphs' don't have to adhere to ALL the specs, like 'Wingdings' etc.
And if you are working within HTML/JS, remember that the 'new' standard for 'Web' based Fonts
is the new '.woff' standard. All modern packages can convert to this, from '.ttf' etc....
To explain to others, (assuming you already know...), this means that 'Font' references can be
made to your Website server/page (.woff file) without being installed on one's 'System'.
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You don't actually _have_ to use WOFF for loadable web fonts. It works with TTF/OTF as well.
See https://www.w3schools.com/css/css3_fonts.asp (https://www.w3schools.com/css/css3_fonts.asp)
The Web Open Font Format (WOFF)
WOFF is a font format for use in web pages. It was developed in 2009, and is now a W3C Recommendation. WOFF is essentially OpenType or TrueType with compression and additional metadata. The goal is to support font distribution from a server to a client over a network with bandwidth constraints.
The Web Open Font Format (WOFF 2.0)
TrueType/OpenType font that provides better compression than WOFF 1.0.
One caution: I found in the browsers I tried, the @font-face css MUST be in the html header!
The exact same code in a loaded css file is ignored.