Author Topic: For the Love of Radio Controlled Aircraft in the US, New Rules Possible.  (Read 14267 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GreyWoolfe

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 3652
  • Country: us
  • NW0LF
A work colleague told us of a trip to america in a previous job where they went to a shooting range and where pleased to find out that they could hire anything they wanted to play with. However one person soon had everyone throwing themselves to the floor when he started waving around his gun oblivious to the fact that he could accidentally shoot a colleague

Most states have banned this practice for that very reason!  You now need to demonstrate some competency and even a single mistake gets you banned!  I almost got banned simply for not putting my safety glasses on *as* I was walking through the door into the range instead of before!!!  They pulled me out and read me the riot act!
[/quote]

Back in the dim and distant past, I was at a shooting range that was run by a group of local police officers.  I was shooting one night, and the numpty next to me stepped out of the shooting port with his revolver in hand and the cylinder closed.  Next thing I knew, the Range Offer was in front of him with his own weapon drawn and pointed, asked him to open and empty cylinder and tossed him out with a lifetime ban.  Stupid is as stupid does.  Thankfully my only gaff over many years of gun ownership was missing charging a case when I was reloading.  Bullet was a squib and got stuck in the barrel.  The gentleman running the desk laughed at me while he gave me a cleaning rod to tap the bullet head out.  Always triple checked the tray before seating the bullet heads after that.
"Heaven has been described as the place that once you get there all the dogs you ever loved run up to greet you."
 

Offline LaserSteveTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1354
  • Country: us
I'm not a Kalifornian, atthough I like the northeren part of the state.

I live in the conservative , somewhat hilly, "Bible Belt" portion of the Midwest. I can stand Southern Kali  for about one week at a time and Northern Kali for about two weeks. I've been there a few times for work, and never got to visit any of the surplus electronics  places. When I'm there I don't have time for the beach or anything fun.  Because the traffic population is so dense in the South, its difficult to do repairs or research work without pre-packing in all possible tools and parts.  Thus every minute in the lab is critical when I'm there.

Only fun I've ever managed to have in Cali was one short emergency  trip for parts  to pre-Armageddon  Fry's Electronics , a few priceless  minutes of a backstage tour  at Laserium's repair facility, and a short trip to inside the perimeter of  Moffett field with a Nasa Burger at Mega Bites. I'll admit you can get good Mex-American food around there, though.

Steve
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 11:31:09 pm by LaserSteve »
"When in doubt, check the Byte order of the Communications Protocol, By Hand, On an Oscilloscope"

Quote from a co-inventor of the PLC, whom i had the honor of working with recently.
 

Offline beanflying

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7375
  • Country: au
  • Toys so very many Toys.
This gets real interesting, real fast.  DJI published an analysis of who was on the 75 member invited  "Industry Advisory Committee". Mostly telecom  providers in the form of big cellular  companies  and law enforcement. Users and manufacturers were woefully under-represented.

      So the published pipe dream is that some service provider would 1. Charge public  users only 5 USD per month, 2. Feed all this flight data down a pipeline (or two) to FAA and probably other agencies for free, 3. Retain the
data for six months, and yet have the level of customer service to make the drone delivery companies happy.

  So either some one is planning to spend in the government's black budget for what I'm going to call "Total Drone Awareness" or this was a pipedream of totally privatized art traffic control via the existing cell service, or I'm believing some one's preplanned  spin on the project.

    And yet all nine or so "invited" service providers would also have to co-operate and share the data, while hopefully providing a "freemium" service to some minor users, which means there would have to be advertising or something to users, or selling the data which was supposed to be open source.   

  Turns out, according to DJI, there is no budget for FAA to spend on establishing this system. FAA excluded ADS-B from the drone side of things which means either they don't want to overload ADS-B (Which is contractor operated) or clutter it with non safety of life traffic.  But as I think of it, even at low level, it IS safety of life traffic.

I've never known a Telecoms company to NOT turn a profit, even the government owned monopolies,  so think what you may.

Ouch... Again,  Allegedly ….   When I get time I'll publish the links to the docs I'm basing this post on.

   Which really raises the question, of "Where is the real time collision avoidance and flight guidance Hardware" going to set? Is the reason why government and apparently part of the industry   wants totally open source everything data  so that the flight planning is done at each operator's headquarters?  A version of what the airline industry wants to go to with no airways routes, so all flights are direct for shortest distance?  Who/ What/ When/ Where negotiates what UAS  has the right of way?

   An even bigger question is how does a General Aviation aircraft or crop duster, or Ultralight or Medical Helo pilot "pop up" into the drone traffic from an uncontrolled airport? Right now in most  uncontrolled  airspace they just call blind on CTAF, a open traffic advisory frequency.

I can't help but to have a little fun with this:
"Press one for Espanol, Press two for English, Press three if your drone can't get permission to take off, Press four if a unwanted delivery drone is setting in your yard, Press five if your at the scene of a mid air collision or drone crash,  Press Six to pay your Airspace Bill, your estimated wait time is Thirty Two Minutes"   ATC support from an overseas call center is going to be a hoot, too...
 
Steve

This model with talking to 'big' industry with commercial interests would be fine if they weren't setting rules for the casual R/C'er or Drone flier. In some ways calling for submissions is PR as the basic idea if not the bulk of the direction for the legislation would already be written. The fairly recent UK process was largely here it is now suck it up and by the way if you can be bothered drop us a note here so it can be filed that we listened ....

If the FAA puts it out to Private to run and administer then good luck with affordability and any shred of privacy with your data/flight logs. Some things the government should remain in charge of  :palm:

Any explanation or ideas what they plan to do with the more general R/C community yet or do they get lumped in still?
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order. Also CNC wannabe, 3D printer and Laser Cutter Junkie and just don't mention my TEA addiction....
 

Offline LaserSteveTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1354
  • Country: us
In the plan as mentioned, general RC using home made gear  is as difficult paperwork wise as building a real experimental aircraft and have to be flown at a designated flying field sanctioned by a community organization and approved by FAA. This field, called a FRIA, will be designated air space, temporary, and only active for a year or two until all UAS are replaced by type approved commercial  models with the data transmission pre-installed . NO new FRIAs will be allowed after the first year and FRIAs can't move, but the administration may end them all permanently at ANY time.  Grandpa's  0.60 Gas Powered  RC biplane he willed you becomes a museum piece.  Model kits with 50% commercial content can be built but must have approved electronics. No flying in your back yard without the license, registration, type approved craft and the full permissive action link, no engine start without electronic approval from the system. Estimated FAA approval process for a home built is 50 pages and two hundred fifty hours of work, using the estimate prepared for the Office of Management and Budget by the FAA. (All civilian facing  government paperwork and forms must be approved by OMB, which is the executive branch's internal watchdog)

Getting approval for a mom and pop business to make UAS/Models  will be nearly impossible without a LOT of Money.

NOTHING CAN START ENGINES WITHOUT ELECTRONIC APPROVAL EXCEPT FOR THE 255 gram toy class. If you can't get continual cellular internet access your screwed. Which makes large portions of the US unflyable.

 FAA assumes no model lasts longer then three years, and they cant be rebuilt, so everyone will be have to happy with commercial, type approved drones flown in a highly restricted manner with NO FPV, No Foamies built in a day and flown that evening. FAA seems to think nobody builds or repairs anything themselves.

You can buy something under 255 grams as a toy at big box mart.

Canada made it easy for now, the Minister for Transport granted a long term, temporary  Exemption to Members of the Model Aeronautics Association of Canada under some tight, but acceptable, rules. Only for "TMA", traditional model aircraft flying, line of sight, manual, traditional  RC  with no camera, no Internal  guidance or stabilization, not capable of flying autonomously to  waypoints, or IMU.

The advisory board for the US strongly suggested a carve out for small TMA under 400  foot altitude flying Line of Sight no more then 400 feet from the operator with no camera and no gyro, IMU or GPS waypoint capability, but the FAA bluntly nixed it in the NPRM, creating the FRIA instead.

400 Foot horizontal limit comes from Law Enforcement, it is their best guess estimate  how far they can associate an operator with a craft visually.

There are two levels of Drone, one that will be damn hard to get and a lesser  performing common model.

Steve



Steve
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 12:01:08 am by LaserSteve »
"When in doubt, check the Byte order of the Communications Protocol, By Hand, On an Oscilloscope"

Quote from a co-inventor of the PLC, whom i had the honor of working with recently.
 

Offline beanflying

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7375
  • Country: au
  • Toys so very many Toys.
So the 2nd R/C Diesel (Playboy Cabin old timer) powered aircraft I built about 30 years ago  :rant: Seriously they have NFI about the average Aeromodeler. Most of my 30+ fleet of aircraft and helis are well over 5 years old and all have R/C gear in them with only the light weight indoor or DLG's running 2.4Gig the rest is on the Aussie 36Meg band. Where was the AMA in this discussion and why did they not have a seat at the table?

As someone who flies Gliders a lot and in particular ridge soaring I don't fly at registered airfields so clearly that is ignored completely in the proposed regs?
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order. Also CNC wannabe, 3D printer and Laser Cutter Junkie and just don't mention my TEA addiction....
 

Offline LaserSteveTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1354
  • Country: us
AMA had a voting seat, but was grossly outnumbered, and I think, my  personal opinion, totally  blindsided by the NRPM.  AMA is not a lobbying organization by charter, but found itself in the hot seat.   I'm also betting some at AMA liked the idea of becoming the National community organizer, and probably thought they had that.  After all, if AMA is the primary organization, they are going to grow like crazy in membership.

What AMA has and has not done is hazy.  All you have is the press releases and their videos/podcasts.  They have been talking to FAA for a long time, but seem more concerned about getting waivers for the existing AMA fields to fly  over the 400 foot limit.

Ridge Soaring in the traditional sense will only be capable of flying  if the ridge soaring craft is commercial and type approved. That question has been asked time and time again when I discuss this.  I don't know how you soar thermals if your bird doesn't have powered flight under the new rules.  Remember, the lock-out system is predicated on electronically preventing  engine start. I don't even think they considered towing aloft or other odd but common stuff.   Unless you can get a FRIA for the soaring location, and even then the FRIA times out at a maximum of 48 months.

Lots of things, Helos, Ridge  Soaring, Gliding, Blimp/Airship  competition, Free Flight,  combat,  Indoor, scale, Giant Scale,  are basically ignored, dead, not considered, not even thought of yet, or considered no longer relevant.

The whole thing seems quadcopter oriented.

Enjoy 308 pages of proposed rule:

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/12/31/2019-28100/remote-identification-of-unmanned-aircraft-systems

Every time you see the word broadcast, please understand that recent public statements say broadcast will NOT be allowed as the primary.

BTW, my friend's transponder on his full size plane is +/- 52 feet. 

I love this one, I quote:

(b) Automatic Remote ID USS connection. From takeoff to landing, the unmanned aircraft system must automatically maintain a connection to the internet, when available, and must transmit the appropriate message elements through that internet connection to a Remote ID USS.

(c) Time mark. The time mark message element must be synchronized with all other remote identification message elements.

 (d) Self-Testing and monitoring. (1) When the unmanned aircraft system is powered on, it must automatically test the remote identification functionality and notify the person manipulating the flight controls of the unmanned aircraft system of the result of the test. (2) The unmanned aircraft must not be able to take off if the remote identification equipment is not functional. (3) The unmanned aircraft system must continuously monitor the remote identification functionality from takeoff to landing and must provide notification of malfunction or failure to the person manipulating the flight controls of the unmanned aircraft system. (b) Automatic Remote ID USS connection. From takeoff to landing, the unmanned aircraft system must automatically maintain a connection to the internet, when available, and must transmit the appropriate message elements through that internet connection to a Remote ID USS. (c) Time mark. The time mark message element must be synchronized with all other remote identification message elements. (d) Self-Testing and monitoring. (1) When the unmanned aircraft system is powered on, it must automatically test the remote identification functionality and notify the person manipulating the flight controls of the unmanned aircraft system of the result of the test. (2) The unmanned aircraft must not be able to take off if the remote identification equipment is not functional. (3) The unmanned aircraft system must continuously monitor the remote identification functionality from takeoff to landing and must provide notification of malfunction or failure to the person manipulating the flight controls of the unmanned aircraft system. (e) Tamper resistance. The unmanned aircraft system must be designed and produced in a way that reduces the ability of a person to tamper with the remote identification functionality. (f) Connectivity. (1) The unmanned aircraft must not be able to take off unless it is connected to the internet and transmitting the message elements in §89.315 through that internet connection to a Remote ID USS. (2) The unmanned aircraft system must continuously monitor its connection to the internet and the unmanned aircraft system’s transmission of the remote identification message elements through that internet connection to a Remote ID USS. If the connection to the internet is lost or the unmanned aircraft system is no longer transmitting the remote
VerDate Sep<11>2014 18:02 Dec 30, 2019 Jkt 250001 PO 00000 Frm 00084 Fmt 4701 Sfmt 4702 E:\FR\FM\31DEP2.SGM 31DEP2 khammond on DSKJM1Z7X2PROD with PROPOSALS2
72521 Federal Register /Vol. 84, No. 250/Tuesday, December 31, 2019/Proposed Rules
identification message elements to a Remote ID USS, the unmanned aircraft system must notify the person manipulating the flight controls of the unmanned aircraft system. (g) Error correction. The remote identification equipment must incorporate error correction in the transmission of the message elements in §89.315. (h) Interference considerations. The remote identification equipment must not interfere with other systems or equipment installed on the unmanned aircraft system, and other systems or equipment installed on the unmanned aircraft system must not interfere with the remote identification equipment. (i) Message transmission. The unmanned aircraft system must be capable of transmitting the message elements for limited remote identification unmanned aircraft systems in §89.315 through an internet connection to a Remote ID USS. (j) Message elements performance requirements. (1) The reported position of the control station must be accurate to within 100 feet of the true position, with 95 percent probability. (2) The reported barometric pressure altitude of the control station must be accurate to within 20 feet of the true barometric pressure altitude for pressure altitudes ranging from 0 to 10,000 feet. (3) The unmanned aircraft system must transmit the latitude, longitude, and barometric pressure altitude of the control station no later than 1.0 second from the time of measurement to the time of transmission. (4) The unmanned aircraft system must transmit the message elements at a rate of at least 1 message per second. (k) Cybersecurity. The unmanned aircraft system must incorporate cybersecurity protections for the transmission of the message elements in §89.315. (l) Range limitation. The unmanned aircraft must be designed to operate no more than 400 feet from its control station. (m) Broadcast limitation. The unmanned aircraft cannot broadcast any of the remote identification message elements identified in §89.305 or §89.315.

(e) Tamper resistance. The unmanned aircraft system must be designed and produced in a way that reduces the ability of a person to tamper with the remote identification functionality. (f) Connectivity. (1) The unmanned aircraft must not be able to take off unless it is connected to the internet and transmitting the message elements in §89.315 through that internet connection to a Remote ID USS. (2) The unmanned aircraft system must continuously monitor its connection to the internet and the unmanned aircraft system’s transmission of the remote identification message elements through that internet connection to a Remote ID USS. If the connection to the internet is lost or the unmanned aircraft system is no longer transmitting the remote
VerDate Sep<11>2014 18:02 Dec 30, 2019 Jkt 250001 PO 00000 Frm 00084 Fmt 4701 Sfmt 4702 E:\FR\FM\31DEP2.SGM 31DEP2 khammond on DSKJM1Z7X2PROD with PROPOSALS2
72521 Federal Register /Vol. 84, No. 250/Tuesday, December 31, 2019/Proposed Rules

identification message elements to a Remote ID USS, the unmanned aircraft system must notify the person manipulating the flight controls of the unmanned aircraft system.

(g) Error correction. The remote identification equipment must incorporate error correction in the transmission of the message elements in §89.315. (h) Interference considerations. The remote identification equipment must not interfere with other systems or equipment installed on the unmanned aircraft system, and other systems or equipment installed on the unmanned aircraft system must not interfere with the remote identification equipment. (i) Message transmission. The unmanned aircraft system must be capable of transmitting the message elements for limited remote identification unmanned aircraft systems in §89.315 through an internet connection to a Remote ID USS. (j) Message elements performance requirements. (1) The reported position of the control station must be accurate to within 100 feet of the true position, with 95 percent probability. (2) The reported barometric pressure altitude of the control station must be accurate to within 20 feet of the true barometric pressure altitude for pressure altitudes ranging from 0 to 10,000 feet. (3) The unmanned aircraft system must transmit the latitude, longitude, and barometric pressure altitude of the control station no later than 1.0 second from the time of measurement to the time of transmission. (4) The unmanned aircraft system must transmit the message elements at a rate of at least 1 message per second. (k) Cybersecurity. The unmanned aircraft system must incorporate cybersecurity protections for the transmission of the message elements in §89.315. (l) Range limitation. The unmanned aircraft must be designed to operate no more than 400 feet from its control station. (m) Broadcast limitation. The unmanned aircraft cannot broadcast any of the remote identification message elements identified in §89.305 or §89.315. "

End Quote..




Steve
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 12:33:18 am by LaserSteve »
"When in doubt, check the Byte order of the Communications Protocol, By Hand, On an Oscilloscope"

Quote from a co-inventor of the PLC, whom i had the honor of working with recently.
 
The following users thanked this post: beanflying

Offline angrybird

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 142
  • Country: pr
  • I have a particular fascination with birds.
In the plan as mentioned, general RC using home made gear  is as difficult paperwork wise as building a real experimental aircraft and have to be flown at a designated flying field sanctioned by a community [...............................]

400 Foot horizontal limit comes from Law Enforcement, it is their best guess estimate  how far they can associate an operator with a craft visually.

There are two levels of Drone, one that will be damn hard to get and a lesser  performing common model.

Steve

Steve


Steve,

You're failing to account for the rural areas, which is a majority of the USA.  People do and will continue to fly whatever they want there, no matter what the regulation.  Interfering with them risks a serious gunfight.  This is not tongue in cheek.  The country folk are ready to start shooting over all the bureacracy and all the bureaucrats need to do is push them a little bit and we will be there.  These regs will only affect the cities.
THE CAKE IS A LIE AND THESE NUTHATCH ARE WAY TOO DISTRACTING
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
I have a hard time seeing gunfights erupt over toy airplanes, if it does it's likely to not end well. The rural areas have most of the land area but a large majority of the populations live on the coasts.

For all the talk about freedoms I don't really see it. The difference is not so much how much you're allowed to do but which things someone is gonna tell you not to do. In some states the government it will practically ruin your whole life over a few ounces of weed or some other silly thing someone might try to do in the privacy of their own home. Authoritarian pricks whose purpose in life is to tell other people how to live and whose greatest fear seems to be that somebody somewhere is enjoying themselves exist everywhere and across the political spectrum.
 

Offline angrybird

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 142
  • Country: pr
  • I have a particular fascination with birds.
You need to check out a rural area, it's not at all what you think...  Everyone with a pulse is done with the regulation and insanity and are just waiting for what many people believe is inevitable - Civil war #2, reset things back to the way they used to be.  Just imagine the USA rural areas in 2020 as a bunch of people with loaded AR15's or other high power pistols in their cars, politely driving down the road, waving at their neighbors and ready for anything...  I have close connections in multiple states, it's not a joke...  Even I carry a takedown AR15 pistol with me in most states (except commiefornia!), its case is the size of a normal 15" laptop and it snaps together in about 3 seconds...  Everyone seems to be waiting for something, it's going to be a very exciting decade  :-DD
THE CAKE IS A LIE AND THESE NUTHATCH ARE WAY TOO DISTRACTING
 

Offline LaserSteveTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1354
  • Country: us
Mr Nutfinch,

Please leave the provocative speech off of EEVBLOG. 

    Some one, some how, is going to have to balance out this proposal, once its issued. Either in the Houses of Congress, or in the Courts. I'm not going to endorse the concept of  drawing a gun over the right to fly.  The way that reform  traditionally starts in this here republic is to get citizens to exercise their rights to make the system work. That starts with informing like minded people  when your upset with a proposed rule.

While you have your right to free speech, shooting up someone so you can fly a drone or RC craft is insane. Arguing on this thread is helping me craft my reply to the proposed regulation via legit means, such as contacting my legislators.

The common issue with Aviation law is it becomes global, quickly. This is NOT just a US problem. As the FAA, CAA, Canada's DOT, CASA goes, so goes the rest of  the world.

Outside of the five "cousins" nations, mentioning potential use of a firearm on the net gets you hauled off to jail.

Edit:

Up until recently, my state  used the English Common Law on encroachments, which is centuries old and deals mainly with trees,
Its quite practical.  My neighbors own some big trees with long branches.  I can trim them to the property line and not a scruple over, but nor can I harm the tree.   But it no longer is "Cuius est solum, eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos" in the US.



Steve



« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 01:33:14 am by LaserSteve »
"When in doubt, check the Byte order of the Communications Protocol, By Hand, On an Oscilloscope"

Quote from a co-inventor of the PLC, whom i had the honor of working with recently.
 

Offline angrybird

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 142
  • Country: pr
  • I have a particular fascination with birds.
Hello there Mr. Namecaller!

If you'd put on your reading glasses, you'd see quite clearly that I am not advocating for anything - I am simply pointing out that the regulation does not matter when half the population ignores it!
 
"Outside of the five "cousins" nations, mentioning potential use of a firearm on the net gets you hauled off to jail. " -> You are legitamately trolling with this comment, there are entire forums dedicated to discussing shooting on the internet.  Get back under your bridge!

Bottom line, you can expect this regulation to move forward with little logic or reason behind it, just like last time, half the country will ignore it, chaos will ensue, it will be modified in some way to appease a few of the larger groups of complainers, and meanwhile "out in the country" people will be doing whatever they want  :-DD


THE CAKE IS A LIE AND THESE NUTHATCH ARE WAY TOO DISTRACTING
 

Offline beanflying

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7375
  • Country: au
  • Toys so very many Toys.
Also ignored in the Regs and Techno waffle (at least in the bit you posted) is that large slabs of the Middle of the USA and even some of the less densely populated areas and if heaven forbid it arrives in Oz we simply don't have Mobile Reception so unless the proposed big brother system want to include Musk Link  :horse: for free you can't fly.

I only have to go 20-30km from here and there is large chunks of land with zero 3 or 4G coverage and I am in a fairly well populated Rural/urban coastal area.

As you say it is linked to a motor lockout but I guess that could be any channel without to much issue.
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order. Also CNC wannabe, 3D printer and Laser Cutter Junkie and just don't mention my TEA addiction....
 

Offline angrybird

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 142
  • Country: pr
  • I have a particular fascination with birds.
Read about the cellular tower vandalism occuring in some areas in the USA.  This 5G thing has certain groups going off their rockers and it would appear that some are assuming that any cell tower is a 5G tower.  Many of the rural areas that *do* have cell service are served by a single tower!  These go down after thunderstorms, snow storms, when 5G vandals in foil hats strike... 

These FAA regulations are meaningless and only people in the cities are going to obey them, and even that is questionable given the amount of crime in every major city.  Freaking out over news like this just isn't worth it, there are so many federal laws in the USA that every American is said to commit at least 3 serious crimes per day without even realizing it.  Read the book, "3 felonies a day", this is modern reality  :-DD
THE CAKE IS A LIE AND THESE NUTHATCH ARE WAY TOO DISTRACTING
 

Offline beanflying

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7375
  • Country: au
  • Toys so very many Toys.
Seriously get off the 'we will ignore the law and do what we like in the country'  :bullshit: if you don't want to seriously engage in the subject take your noise and self amusement elsewhere. Breaching FAA regulations potentially kills humans in full sized aviation when UAV fliers break them this is not something to joke about. This is in part why the model section has existed in relative harmony with full sized for so long until the cheap toys arrived in the last few years.

Do you actually fly R/C or own a drone?
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order. Also CNC wannabe, 3D printer and Laser Cutter Junkie and just don't mention my TEA addiction....
 

Offline angrybird

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 142
  • Country: pr
  • I have a particular fascination with birds.
Ok you are still missing the point.  People flying drones over their property and R/C aircraft in all the places they've been flying them since the advent of this hobby isn't going to kill anyone.  It isn't a danger and never has been.  I am not advocating for any danger here.  If you fly your plan over my property when I'm flying my R/C helicopter over my property, that is your problem, not mine.

This is just bureaucrats doing what bureaucrats do - They try to justify their jobs by continually churning out regulations.  People in the enforcement zones (i.e. metropolitan areas, around airports, etc) will be subject to them.  People in the country will do what they have always done no matter what the outcome, this is a universal truth and there is nothing you can do about it.  Life goes on.

And yes, I have a few R/C helicopter, a 30 size nitro that terrifies me and various electric models. I had a few planes a long time ago but the helis are so much more fun.  They are just periodic entertainment nowadays, and I'll keep flying them as I always have no matter what happens with these rules, just like everyone else  :-+
THE CAKE IS A LIE AND THESE NUTHATCH ARE WAY TOO DISTRACTING
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Read about the cellular tower vandalism occuring in some areas in the USA.  This 5G thing has certain groups going off their rockers and it would appear that some are assuming that any cell tower is a 5G tower.  Many of the rural areas that *do* have cell service are served by a single tower!  These go down after thunderstorms, snow storms, when 5G vandals in foil hats strike... 

These FAA regulations are meaningless and only people in the cities are going to obey them, and even that is questionable given the amount of crime in every major city.  Freaking out over news like this just isn't worth it, there are so many federal laws in the USA that every American is said to commit at least 3 serious crimes per day without even realizing it.  Read the book, "3 felonies a day", this is modern reality  :-DD

Do you seriously want a civil war over something so minor? I would bet that the result of such a catastrophe would be a lot of needless bloodshed with the ultimate result being those who started it being put in their place real quick and further alienated from the educated, affluent and highly populated coasts that already roll their eyes at the stereotypical ignorant hicks that the rest of the world envisions when they think of America. The clock is never getting set back to the past even though there are some aspects I think were better then than now and it's delusional to think otherwise.

Vandalizing cell towers based on bizarre paranoia does nothing to help the cause I assure you and bolsters the stereotype of a bunch of backwoods ignorant boobs. It's not doing any favors for all the good and sensible people who live there, at least the ones who didn't flee to the coasts. The same idiots vandalizing cell towers are probably moaning about the lack of reception. Meanwhile the rest of the country which makes most of the money and props up the rest is becoming more happy to leave the other parts behind as they gleefully slide further into irrelevance.
 

Offline angrybird

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 142
  • Country: pr
  • I have a particular fascination with birds.
James that is not my point.  The point is that the American people have become so fed up with the federal level insanity that all of this regulation nonsense is totally ignored - That is the point!  The regulation will be ignored.  While it is likely true that half the country (or more!) is ready for war, I am not implying in any way that drone regulations will start it!  I am just pointing out that federal regulations like this pushed themselves below the "noise floor" for most people quite some time ago.  Are you an American?  I'll bet you are committing a life in prison worth of federal crimes every day, and you don't even know it - Look up this book I referenced - It is absolutely true!

I totally agree that vandalizing cell towers does nothing, but I don't think it is backwoods boobs doing it - I think it is these crazy fringe groups that also believe that they can sense "EMF" from power lines, that it is keeping them up at night, causing their insanity, etc - Literally the "tin foil hat" group.  Look up "EMF blockers" on google - People buy into this stuff hook, line and sinker!
THE CAKE IS A LIE AND THESE NUTHATCH ARE WAY TOO DISTRACTING
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5569
  • Country: us
On a much calmer note, I am on the verge of abandoning RC model flying as a hobby.  While I have loved it since I was in grade school, and actively participated for much of that time it doesn't seem to have any real future.  I will miss it, but I am tired of fighting an uphill, apparently unwinnable battle.

It is clear to me from the actions over the last decade that the professional operators in the airspace see model airplanes as hazard with no redeeming qualities, and will keep pressure on until it is eliminated.  While some may blame these increases in regulation on crazy drone fliers, I believe that is only something that provided easy fodder, not the causative event.

Utility inspectors, air ambulance services, police air vehicles and the like have plenty to think about without worrying about model airplane club locations, backyard flyers and the like.  Not surprisingly they value their own lives highly, and unless they are participants in the hobby don't see any balancing value.
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone

Offline beanflying

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7375
  • Country: au
  • Toys so very many Toys.
Ok you are still missing the point.  People flying drones over their property and R/C aircraft in all the places they've been flying them since the advent of this hobby isn't going to kill anyone.  It isn't a danger and never has been.  I am not advocating for any danger here.  If you fly your plan over my property when I'm flying my R/C helicopter over my property, that is your problem, not mine.

....

Your property as explained earlier in this thread ceases above the ground. Willfully ignoring for example the height limit (think it is still 300' in the USA?) places you into an area where full sized aviation happens. While this is exceedingly rare and the sky is huge relative to any full sized aircraft the rules are there for a reason.

In Oz for MAAA based events off registered Airfields we can for example apply for a NOTAM for an increased height limit over an area for Glider events. This still doesn't mean we don't give way to full sized if one comes across our area just there is a warning issued and published at the Airfields in the area.

We have had examples of dicks with both Drones and even well before that R/C planes flying in parks under the flightpaths of major airports. Regulations matter for everyone always everywhere.
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order. Also CNC wannabe, 3D printer and Laser Cutter Junkie and just don't mention my TEA addiction....
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
I intend to keep flying, however I might be pushed toward smaller and lighter planes that are exempt from the regulations. I've had a lot of fun flying micro stuff and now that brushless power is becoming more common in micros they are getting a lot better to deal with. Fortunately when most people hear the word "drone" they think multirotors, meanwhile I often carry cameras on fixed wing planes and nobody bats an eye.

I also think the drone craze has been fading. For a while they were all the rage and constantly in the news but I don't remember the last time I read of a drone incident in the news and the millions of spying eyes in every suburban neighborhood that everyone was fretting about don't seem to have materialized.

I hear people complaining about the ready to fly planes that enable anyone to participate but honestly we very much needed those. Without them RC flying was all but dead, current generations have a vast range of options for entertainment and I'm more than happy to see anyone new join the hobby. Without new blood and evolving technology the hobby will die and the places I fly will be replaced by housing developments. I started out flying foamies and have since built a pile of kit and scratchbuilt planes. Had my only option been painstakingly building a plane out of balsa sticks I likely never would have started.
 

Offline beanflying

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7375
  • Country: au
  • Toys so very many Toys.
Any of my comments about RTF dills is about the behavior of the owners not a complaint about the product ;) The biggest issue is the ready access and the lack of perceived 'need' of the AMA or MAAA in our case as the time invested in building is more or less nil and the cost is low. This has led to a lack of general knowledge by the average user of the FAA (CASA in Oz) regs.

My most often flown plane is a Foamy and slope bashing with foam allows you to pick a rock or a bush and call it a landing area  >:D
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order. Also CNC wannabe, 3D printer and Laser Cutter Junkie and just don't mention my TEA addiction....
 

Offline angrybird

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 142
  • Country: pr
  • I have a particular fascination with birds.
Ok you are still missing the point.  People flying drones over their property and R/C aircraft in all the places they've been flying them since the advent of this hobby isn't going to kill anyone.  It isn't a danger and never has been.  I am not advocating for any danger here.  If you fly your plan over my property when I'm flying my R/C helicopter over my property, that is your problem, not mine.

....

Your property as explained earlier in this thread ceases above the ground. Willfully ignoring for example the height limit (think it is still 300' in the USA?) places you into an area where full sized aviation happens. While this is exceedingly rare and the sky is huge relative to any full sized aircraft the rules are there for a reason.

In Oz for MAAA based events off registered Airfields we can for example apply for a NOTAM for an increased height limit over an area for Glider events. This still doesn't mean we don't give way to full sized if one comes across our area just there is a warning issued and published at the Airfields in the area.

We have had examples of dicks with both Drones and even well before that R/C planes flying in parks under the flightpaths of major airports. Regulations matter for everyone always everywhere.


That is not the point.  I have repeatedly stated I am talking about "out in the country" - Rural areas - Which is most of the USA.  If you fly a drone in the country over someone else's property, it gets shot down.  If someone out there wants to fly whatever they want to fly over their own property, they do it.  This is just the way it is, the way it has always been, the way it will always be.  You do not tell American country folk that their property "ceases above the ground".  They have heard that before, and they will simply laugh at you.  I am not talking about flying something thousands of feet in the air, you can't see that far.  I am talking about R/C planes, model rockets (this is still quite popular, some of these do probably go a thousand feet up), things that people do for fun enjoying their place in the country. 

Don't you have rural areas in Australia too?  I would bet it is the same way out there.  Again, I am not talking about obviously unreasonable things like flying around airports and such - People who do those things are city dimwits who have too much free time on their hands.  I am talking about people on their private property doing what they do every day.
THE CAKE IS A LIE AND THESE NUTHATCH ARE WAY TOO DISTRACTING
 

Offline beanflying

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7375
  • Country: au
  • Toys so very many Toys.
That is the point exactly the wild west only exists in the mind. There is something about being a 'nation of laws and not men' that is fact and a matter of the time we now live in. Keep the Gun nut baggery out of this thread too it has had more than plenty of exposure already!

You can not argue it is ok 'because of x location' there is current law and breaking it is a Federal offence regardless of fairly much whatever western country you live in. Go fly over a government building or the wrong place in some countries elsewhere they will shoot you first or lock you up and throw away the key.

Anyone who breaches those current fairly open rules and in so doing puts my hobby at risk of increased regulation or limits on it because of their actions deserves a kicking be that written or verbal. This is partly why the USA is now where it is due to dicks with drones with no regard for the rules.
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order. Also CNC wannabe, 3D printer and Laser Cutter Junkie and just don't mention my TEA addiction....
 

Offline angrybird

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 142
  • Country: pr
  • I have a particular fascination with birds.
No one is flying drones over government buildings.  Again, I am talking about people in the country minding their own business!!!

The USA (and I believe most other developed nations) are  far past "nation of laws, not men".  If you come to America, you will inadvertently commit several federal "offenses" per day without even trying.  There are literally millions of laws and no one person can even comprehend a fraction of them.
The difference between the USA and other countries is that in the USA, people will actually do something about it.  This takes many forms.  You can call it "civil disobedience" when I disable the faulty emission device on my older car after it malfunctions.  You can call it the same when I rig the PCM to make the emissions inspectors think it still works and they give me a pass.  You can call it the same when people ignore these new FAA "regulations" and keep on flying their R/C stuff over their property without any internet connection or tracking hardware.  Is it really "civil disobedience" though? Or is it just rejection of tyranny?  The difference in the USA is that this "disobedience" is commonplace due to how many people have recognized the tyranny, and no enforcement team in the USA is suicidal enough to go out into the country and start enforcing these regulations.  But this isn't even my point!

I keep having to go back to my original point that I am arguing for.  In the country, people will do whatever they want, and everything will be fine.  I'll bet in Australia, even if something like this is passed, you can go out in the bush and fly your R/C aircraft without a problem and no one will bother you about it.  Everyone is freaking out about this idiotic regulation as if the massive expanse of rural land out there is just going to dissapear.  It will still be there!  I promise!!!
THE CAKE IS A LIE AND THESE NUTHATCH ARE WAY TOO DISTRACTING
 

Offline LaserSteveTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1354
  • Country: us
I work at an educational institution teaching future engineers. I can't avoid flying over government land.:-).  Therefore I need to try to shape the regulations to avoid any problems in the first place.

As much as I would like to move some things behind closed doors off campus, it just doesn't work that way. The indirect impact of modal aviation in my industry is huge.

Steve
"When in doubt, check the Byte order of the Communications Protocol, By Hand, On an Oscilloscope"

Quote from a co-inventor of the PLC, whom i had the honor of working with recently.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf