Author Topic: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs  (Read 34223 times)

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Offline zapta

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #100 on: January 20, 2015, 03:18:19 pm »
You have not addressed them, you just keep telling us we are denying the facts? How about providing some of your own... It could be a dataset, a formal paper (doesn't even have to be in any of those fancy liberal-biased rolling-in-the-dough science publications), or maybe some website with sourced info. Is that too hard?

I provided the facts in post 105. You are going in circles.
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Offline zapta

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #101 on: January 20, 2015, 03:32:37 pm »
Quote
"In fact, the thieves were considered social allies of the revolution, since they too were enemies of private property. Stalin who once robbed banks, fondly characterized the thieves' behaviour as redistribution of wealth, an additional form of class struggle."
"Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn  1918  -  2009

Now who is using insults and personal attacks?

Poor Stalin.
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Offline tom66

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #102 on: January 20, 2015, 03:49:45 pm »
Crony capitalism in the green/cleantech industry implies that Tesla and other companies such as wind turbine manufacturers, solar power plant operators, etc. are in bed with the government. Whereas the reality is that the oil and general automotive industry  have contributed far more to government officials than any of the other companies...

You argue that the administration favours Tesla right now. Ok, but in the GWB years they favoured the big oil players. They even went as far as believing in hydrogen cars -- what a brilliant scam by big oil. California has funded the construction of many of these filling plants and despite all this investment only around 125 FCVs were sold in California last year (one of the few markets where they are available - Japan being one other.)

By some records California spent over $100 million on building out a largely unsuccessful hydrogen network which sells hydrogen at about the price of gasoline (on a per mile driven basis.)

I'd much rather see government spend my tax money on a sustainable future... and support those who are willing to try future technologies... than squander it on impossible projects or military misadventures.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 03:57:34 pm by tom66 »
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #103 on: January 20, 2015, 03:51:50 pm »
hydrogen ... three words

hydrogen embrittlement
hindenburg

good luck ...
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Offline coppice

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #104 on: January 20, 2015, 03:57:33 pm »
hydrogen ... three words

hydrogen embrittlement
hindenburg

good luck ...
Hydrogen embrittles some metals, but not all metals. The process has been know for more than a century, and is well understood. Its only a problem if you ignore it and use inappropriate materials.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #105 on: January 20, 2015, 04:12:40 pm »
There are many major issues with hydrogen in cars.

It requires natural gas to make. You can produce it from water and electrolysis, but the efficiency of sub 25% makes this a non-starter. Other solutions such as using algae to produce hydrogen have not been shown to be scalable or commercially viable.  This doesn't ween us off fossil fuels and only serves to increae CO2 emissions.

Interesting graph here comparing many vehicles with the Toyota Prius - hydrogen is WORSE on a W2W basis than a Prius... what chance does it have?  :palm:

At least EVs permit us to move to a cleaner grid with lower emissions per kWh. Right now EVs pollute less on the average grid, compared to comparable cars. As long as improved technologies are implemented they will get cleaner year on year.

The second major issue is the lie over fuelling time. Most manufacturers tout that hydrogen can achieve a 3 minute fill up - roughly comparable to that of a petrol car. However, this is only available in a few limited circumstances. First, the hydrogen station must have received less than X visitors that day, as all hydrogen needs to be pre-pumped to the desired pressure (it's stored at a considerably lower temperature.) For one station in Japan with a cost of about $5mn USD, this was 20 cars or 6 buses. Not per pump, but per station. Secondly, this is never available whenever the outside air temperature drops too low - below about 0 degC the fueling times increase by an order of magnitude or fueling becomes unavailable altogether.

Hydrogen stations cost a ridiculous amount to build. $5 million or $10 million is not unheard of. Compare: a Tesla supercharger costs less than $150k for 8 stalls. That includes grid upgrades necessary to support charging.

And the cost of the fuel cell ... that's another matter. Full of precious platinum, like a catalytic converter, but in much larger quantities.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 04:29:29 pm by tom66 »
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #106 on: January 20, 2015, 04:24:24 pm »

 Instead of just posting logical arguments and facts, trolls will call you out personally, and then tell you that you are stupid or you just don't understand, or your country is a sh*t hole, or that you are a liar. Strings of nested quotations a mile long. Posts on top of posts. And always personalised with hostility and name calling. Do yourself a favor. Respond to facts, and not to individuals. If they cannot treat you with respect, then do not speak to them. We all should be able to voice opinions with out all the questioning of motives and continous hostility. Tom66 disagrees with me about things political all the time, but he does not go out of his way to be hostile or personal. See the difference.
Calling you out for repeatedly spreading mistruths and sometimes lies as I and others have done is not trolling. See the definition of Troll.

I think anyone who's observed the history of these topics you repeatedly start can see quite clearly who the trolls are.

As far as presenting facts - again the history of posts speak for themselves. Anyone can read through this thread or others you've started and make their own judgement.

Quote
--I accept the fact that many Volt drivers are happy with the car, that has never been disputed. I just don't think that it was a good idea from a business stand point (capitalism again).
Well you continue to backtrack. The discussion was not about what is good from a business stand point.   You stated that the production of the Volt was part of the GM bailout. You made demonstrably false statements to support your view. Your misinformation and lies have been pointed out several times by myself, Corporate666 and others yet you continue to ignore the facts.  You seem to be the one who does not want to make this about the facts.

There are many ways to be hostile. Hiding being pleasantries and quotes from historical figures is one way.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 04:35:49 pm by mtdoc »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #107 on: January 20, 2015, 06:12:14 pm »
It's funny how the conservative anti-EV idealogues are all for tax cuts for the corporations responsible for fossil fuels and ICEs and pretty much anyone else but endlessly whine when individuals who drive an EV get a tax cut. 

A few clarifications:

1. Don't confuse between libertarians and conservatives.

2. I don't think anybody here is against EV. It's just a question of should the general public be forced to pay for it.

3. I don't think anybody here is for tax cuts and subsidies for fossil and ICE corporations.

4. Don't confuse calling out corruption with 'whining'.

Cheers.
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #108 on: January 20, 2015, 08:01:04 pm »
It's funny how the conservative anti-EV idealogues are all for tax cuts for the corporations responsible for fossil fuels and ICEs and pretty much anyone else but endlessly whine when individuals who drive an EV get a tax cut. 

A few clarifications:

1. Don't confuse between libertarians and conservatives.
Fair point. I should have said conservative and libertarian.  Although the truth is I find these political labels often fall short since their meanings have evolved.  The policies of Eisenhower, Nixon and Reagan would be considered liberal (or socialist!) by many of todays "conservatives".  Likewise the policies of Clinton and Obama (forget the rhetoric look at the policies) are more to the "right" than most of what where previously considered moderate Republican views.  Personally, some of my views fall under the "conseravtive" banner, some under the "libertarian" banner and some under the "liberal" banner.

Quote
2. I don't think anybody here is against EV. It's just a question of should the general public be forced to pay for it.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Ignoring what the public pays for ICE vehicles and only focusing on what the public pays for EVs qualifies as "anti-EV" in my book. Of course I think many with that view come by it from the politicization of the issue - leading them to believe what their favorite media pundits tell them and not focusing on (or willfully ignoring) the facts.

Quote
3. I don't think anybody here is for tax cuts and subsidies for fossil and ICE corporations.
Not subsidies - I didn't say that (though they do conveniently ignore them and only point out the EV subsidies) but clearly most from the "conservative" and "libertarian" camps are generally anti-tax and specifically for lowering taxes on corporations.

Quote
4. Don't confuse calling out corruption with 'whining'.
See above. The whining I referred to is the repeated complaining about the EV subsidies which mostly amount to targeted tax cuts.

As far as corruption and crony capitalism goes - there is plenty of that everywhere and whatever occurs in the EV world is a small fraction compared to what occurs in the fossil fuel industry or traditional auto maker world (and all that is dwarfed by what occurs in the financial services world).    The share of EV industry money is, at this point, very small as compared to the ICE and fossil fuel industry.  I have no doubt that once EVs become a larger portion of the pie, the associated crony capitalism will also grow proportionately but criticizing EVs on the basis of any that exists now is a weak argument since it is so ubiquitous and applies even more so to ICE vehicles. 

That seems to be the common theme. Find some issue with EVs (or RE) and repeat it over and over while ignoring the same or larger issue as it exists for traditional ICE vehicles (or fossil fuels). It may fool some but I'm sure most EEV blog readers are smarter than that.

EVs (and RE) are not a panacea and have their own sets of issues, but they are a step forward.

In the spirit of presenting some facts. Here's a few nice graphs of the growth of EV sales.

The first is from here and shows overall cumulative EV sales through the end of 2014 broken down into BEVs and PHEVs.

The second is from here and breaks it down by specific vehicles. It only goes through mid 2014. I believe the Leaf has overtaken the Volt now for the lead.

Overall - these show healthy growth (even if it is too little, too late...)

« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 08:26:04 pm by mtdoc »
 

Offline retrolefty

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #109 on: January 20, 2015, 09:13:43 pm »
It's funny how the conservative anti-EV idealogues are all for tax cuts for the corporations responsible for fossil fuels and ICEs and pretty much anyone else but endlessly whine when individuals who drive an EV get a tax cut. 

A few clarifications:

1. Don't confuse between libertarians and conservatives.


 I'll remind you that a libertarian is just a conservative that likes to smoke weed.  8)
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #110 on: January 21, 2015, 12:57:14 am »
It's funny how the conservative anti-EV idealogues are all for tax cuts for the corporations responsible for fossil fuels and ICEs and pretty much anyone else but endlessly whine when individuals who drive an EV get a tax cut. 

A few clarifications:

1. Don't confuse between libertarians and conservatives.


 I'll remind you that a libertarian is just a conservative that likes to smoke weed.  8)

I mow weed, not smoking ;-)

Libertarians are what used to be called classical liberals. Think about it this way, we, the good libertarians, are in the center and are oppressed from the right by conservatives that want to impose their religious morals and from the left by socialists that want take our money, both try to harness the power of the government to advance their cause.

Cherish the liberty of yourself and fellow men.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #111 on: January 21, 2015, 01:11:55 am »
It's funny how the conservative anti-EV idealogues are all for tax cuts for the corporations responsible for fossil fuels and ICEs and pretty much anyone else but endlessly whine when individuals who drive an EV get a tax cut. 

A few clarifications:

1. Don't confuse between libertarians and conservatives.


 I'll remind you that a libertarian is just a conservative that likes to smoke weed.  8)

Ha! One of my friends recently ran for the state legislature as the Libertarian candidate. He likes a good beer, but weed? .. I don't think so.  Then again it's legal here now so maybe soon...


Libertarians are what used to be called classical liberals. Think about it this way, we, the good libertarians, are in the center and are oppressed from the right by conservatives that want to impose their religious morals and from the left by socialists that want take our money, both try to harness the power of the government to advance their cause.

I view it a little less linearly. I like the graphic below as one way to represent the political spectrum.

Quote
Cherish the liberty of yourself and fellow men.
True dat. Just make sure your liberty doesn't interfere mine.



 

Offline zapta

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #112 on: January 21, 2015, 03:20:24 am »
We already have two of the three top murderers of the 20th century. Where would be Mao Tse Tung in that graph?

Also, Obama should be significantly lower in that graph. 
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #113 on: January 21, 2015, 04:55:38 am »
Where would be Mao Tse Tung in that graph?
Right next to Stalin I'd think

Quote
Also, Obama should be significantly lower in that graph.

? Obama isn't on that graph. If he was I would put him just to the right of Clinton (again based on his actual actions and policies not his rhetoric).
 

Offline MacAttak

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #114 on: January 21, 2015, 07:17:13 am »
With the current price of oil's effect on Russian finances, I wouldn't expect the glut to last much longer. That's a pretty serious political destabilizer.

Correction to the estimates about Tesla Supercharger site costs: $150,000 is the lowest estimate I've seen mentioned. A more realistic estimate would be around $250,000. Doesn't really affect the point being made though. And the cost is paid by roughly $2,000 per sale that is earmarked for the charging network rollout (the $2,000 number is based on the extra fee charged for adding SC capability to an S60 which doesn't have it as a standard feature).
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #115 on: January 21, 2015, 07:31:53 am »
? Obama isn't on that graph. If he was I would put him just to the right of Clinton (again based on his actual actions and policies not his rhetoric).

My bad, Nader looked darker than usual. Obama is all about giving freebies and wealth distribution. Now that we restored balance so it's not as easy but he keeps trying. Clinton also moved down in the graph in recent years but above Obama. I wouldn't say that Stalin and Hitler provided security.
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #116 on: January 21, 2015, 10:28:47 am »
Obama is all about giving freebies and wealth distribution.

You're right of course - he's done an excellent job of redistributing to the top 5%.  Look at the actual facts. Don't be fooled by the rhetoric and the political pundits. There's a game afoot. If you're following your national libertarian "leaders" and falling for the national theatrics you just might be unknowingly doing the dirty work of those for whom liberty is the least of their motivations (but an effective buzzword to motivate the minions).

Just sayin' - Think for yourself.

The thing about greed is enough is never enough..

Source of figures below and more details on the ongoing wealth redistribution can be found HERE
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 10:57:00 am by mtdoc »
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #117 on: January 21, 2015, 11:59:39 am »
The liberal tree-hugging environmental extremists would be somewhere on the bottom of that chart?
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Offline tom66

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #118 on: January 21, 2015, 12:29:26 pm »
The liberal tree-hugging environmental extremists would be somewhere on the bottom of that chart?

Not if they're rolling in all those green subsidy dollars and mega science bonuses.
 

Offline SgtRock

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #119 on: January 21, 2015, 01:41:57 pm »
Greetings EEVBees:

--Please see the below Whitehouse press release wherein President Obama takes credit for the bailout and for electric vehicles. Please note that Ford was not involved in the bailout, and was not forced to produce an EV.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/08/15/remarks-president-town-hall-meeting-cannon-falls-minnesota

[President Obama] "You will recall when I came into office they were talking about the liquidation of GM and Chrysler, and a lot of folks said, you can’t help them, and it’s a waste of the government’s money to try to help them.  But what I said was, we can’t afford to lose up to a million jobs in this country, particularly in the Midwest, but we also can’t afford to lose leadership in terms of building an auto industry that we used to own. And so we turned around those auto companies -- they are now making a profit for the first time in decades, they’re gaining market share for the first time in years.  (Applause.)  But what we said was, if we’re going to help you, then you’ve also got to change your ways.  You can’t just make money on SUVs and trucks.  There’s a place for SUVs and trucks, but as gas prices keep on going up, you’ve got to understand the market -- people are going to be trying to save money.  And so what we’ve now seen is an investment in electric vehicles"

--And, the below article from Forbes which quotes from the speech and makes some good points

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/11/14/the-governments-bailout-of-general-motors-is-strangling-gm/

"If the bailout was such a big success that President Obama could use it as a major issue in his reelection campaign last year, why isn’t GM’s stock isn’t worth more? Why is it increasingly unlikely that Obama’s prediction that taxpayers will make money on the bailout will come true?"

"The significant government stake in the company has hindered recovery.  The White House forced policies on GM’s management that were oriented toward its own ideology rather than market factors. Obama himself bragged about it at a town hall meeting in Minnesota in 2011:  “What we said was, if we’re going to help you, then you’ve also got to change your ways.  You can’t just make money on SUV’s and trucks….And so what we’ve now seen is an investment in electric vehicles.”

"We’ll never know where GM would be today if it had been allowed to go through bankruptcy in the ordinary way.  But there’s no reason to believe the current management, appointed by Washington politicians, has been more competent than the executives who might have taken over following a Chapter 11 reorganization.  Remember, the Dow Jones Industrial Average is up 40% since the GM bailout, and the 30 companies in the index are being run by executives hired without Washington’s help."

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Offline zapta

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #120 on: January 21, 2015, 03:31:50 pm »
Obama is all about giving freebies and wealth distribution.

You're right of course - he's done an excellent job of redistributing to the top 5%.  Look at the actual facts. Don't be fooled by the rhetoric and the political pundits. There's a game afoot.

His powers are limited, especially now, but he keeps trying.


If you're following your national libertarian "leaders" and falling for the national theatrics you just might be unknowingly doing the dirty work of those for whom liberty is the least of their motivations (but an effective buzzword to motivate the minions).

Just sayin' - Think for yourself.

I am thinking for myself and I cherish my liberty. If I understand your argument, if I will give up liberty I will have more money (wealth distribution). That's a mentality of a slave.

Personal liberty is not a guarantee for financial success or any other outcome. It's a core value, a basic right, an axiom.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #121 on: January 21, 2015, 04:23:38 pm »
Quote
We’ll never know where GM would be today if it had been allowed to go through bankruptcy in the ordinary way.

But we have countless examples of how other companies have fared exiting from bankruptcy.

GM's issue isn't there is no demand for its vehicles -> the majority of GM jobs would have never be lost through a bankruptcy. In fact, GM would have emerged without any of its legacy costs, without any of its management, and would be much stronger than it is today.

What he said last night about GM reflects his complete ignorance of how the private sector and our legal system work.
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #122 on: January 21, 2015, 04:32:54 pm »

If you're following your national libertarian "leaders" and falling for the national theatrics you just might be unknowingly doing the dirty work of those for whom liberty is the least of their motivations (but an effective buzzword to motivate the minions).

Just sayin' - Think for yourself.

I am thinking for myself and I cherish my liberty. If I understand your argument, if I will give up liberty I will have more money (wealth distribution).
 
No - not what I was saying at all! Not sure how you got that from what I wrote but perhaps it was my bad.  I hope you don't equate liberty with personal wealth accumulation - IMO that would be the mentality of a slave.  Though many of the national "Libertarian" leaders have co-opted the idea as a way to consolidate their own (and their backers) wealth and power.

This is way, way OT so I'll keep it short.  IMO -anyone falling for the Red(Libertarian or Republican) vs Blue(Democrat) fake game and who think that defines "us versus them" is lost in the matrix.  Step outside of it!  Politicians (on both sides) need someone to demonize to motivate the masses. Most of what you see in the national media is Kabuki theater.


 

Offline zapta

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #123 on: January 21, 2015, 04:35:11 pm »
But we have countless examples of how other companies have fared exiting from bankruptcy.

The bailout was intended to help the unions, not the company. A bankruptcy court would enable a renegotiation of the employment agreements.

Search for gm rubber room.
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs
« Reply #124 on: January 21, 2015, 04:43:07 pm »

Quote
GM's issue isn't there is no demand for its vehicles -> the majority of GM jobs would have never be lost through a bankruptcy. In fact, GM would have emerged without any of its legacy costs, without any of its management, and would be much stronger than it is today.

As I've previously stated, I'm no fan of the GM bailout but at least GM was forced to make some changes, file Chapt 11 and its bond and stock holders take some losses.  Its CEO was forced to step down.  The same cannot be said for the bailout of AIG and the big banks. 

There is NO objective evidence that  "White House forced policies on GM’s management that were oriented toward its own ideology rather than market factors".  That's just political posturing - saying it doesn't make it so.

As for anyone who gets caught up in what the national politicians say, most of it is for show. What's important is the facts on the ground.
 


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