Forbes Administers a Slap and a Tickle to Fans of EVs

[Corporate666]

No, 9 out of 10 times I drive to a customer I see a Tesla on the road. I drive at random times and not very often so the chance seeing the same car every time is near to zero. Oh, and I stopped counting the Teslas used as taxis from the main airport. BTW the number of Model-S in the NL is closer to 2000 or 3000 (close to 1200 got sold in 2013 alone). With all the tax incentives they are incredibly cheap for private business owners. Around $35000 for the top model.

Sorry, I just don't believe you because what you say is so ridiculously implausible as to defy belief.  Not to mention you have a history of "bending the facts" to suit your anti-EV bias.

You're correct, I was mistaken - there are 2200 Teslas in the Netherlands, or about 1 per 8,000 capita.  But there are close to 400,000 cars sold per year in your country.  By any measure, Teslas are rare.  To claim that on 90% of your trips you see one (and they are different ones you're seeing), and these people are always driving slower than traffic, giving you enough of a sample size to reasonably conclude that range anxiety is causing them to drive slow...

Well, bullshit has not flowed forth from a post on this site so freely since that Orsto watch guy was posting here.

[coppice]

You're correct, I was mistaken - there are 2200 Teslas in the Netherlands, or about 1 per 8,000 capita.  But there are close to 400,000 cars sold per year in your country.  By any measure, Teslas are rare.  To claim that on 90% of your trips you see one (and they are different ones you're seeing), and these people are always driving slower than traffic, giving you enough of a sample size to reasonably conclude that range anxiety is causing them to drive slow...

If you spend much of your time near Schipol airport you will see Teslas a LOT. They have long lines of them at the taxi ranks there. I was told those taxis spend most of their time just around that part of Amsterdam. However, in 5 days staying in central Amsterdam last November I saw Teslas numerous times in that area too. Not all of those were taxis.

[zapta]

What is the official 0 to 60 (or 100) of you car?  How much does it coos before subsidies?

Officially 0-60 is about 9 seconds, but that's with the Eco mode turned on. Unofficially it's more like 6-7 seconds. The thing you have to remember is that it isn't comparable to an ICE car because you get maximum torque all the time. In an ICE car doing 60 MPH you are not going to accelerate that fast unless it's a performance car. You might have to shift down, and there is a delay as the RPMs ramp up or the turbo kicks in. In an EV there are no gears, you just put your foot down and instantly it takes off. Very quick away from the lights.

The car's list price is £32,000 (it's the top model). Nissan were doing an offer where they give you £3500 off, and I haggled down a bit too. Of course, once you own the car the "fuel" is about 1/5th to 1/6th the price of petrol. Many places offer it for free as an incentive to visit, such as IKEA and many supermarkets. Maintenance costs are also very low, since there is no exhaust, no gears, no spark plugs, no radiator, no oil, no cooling fluid etc. Even the brakes don't get much wear because most of the time braking is regenerative. Brakes only kick in below about 4 MPH to bring the vehicle to a stop.

Plus, it's insanely cool 

Yes, electric motors have high torque and wider RPM operating range. It's strange that the manufacturer doesn't specify the best possible 0-60, from my experience it's the 0-60 at ideal conditions where you don't care about wear and tear.

ICE need to shift (narrow power band) but new clutches are very good at it (search for DCT) and are faster than any human. My last 300k miles I have done with manual gear (~20 k miles per year) and every gear shift is a challenge to have that perfect shift, especially the down shifts (no heel-and-toe here). It makes driving more fun this way though I am not as good as the machines.

[SgtRock]

Greetings EEVBees:

--I love Tesla Motors. I do not even mind 1.3B in tax breaks and incentives Nevada is risking to get Musk to build a 5B lithium battery fab. Nevada is risking not collecting 1.3 in taxes against a possible 100B increase in economic activity in the area. Since Musk and Co. have real skin in the game. It is the kind of deal even an evil banker could understand. Like Steve Martin said "I see. A profit deal." A very different proposition from giving a beggarly startup a huge grant, a huge loan, and a pat on the back. Below article provides a good run down of the relevant facts about Musk's deal with Nevada.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/2014/09/05/tesla-picks-nevada-world-biggest-lithium-battery-plant-eyes-world-biggest/

--I do worry though, about the impact of the oil glut. Hopefully Tesla's car business is relatively immune to falling gas prices as Tesla drivers probably are not primarily motivated by yearly fuel cost savings. However sales of these batteries for PV storage could be affected if PV Solar sales inflect and flatten due to lower fuel prices and disappearing subsidies.

--I still favor getting rid of federal subsidy for EVs. Subsidizing a host of competitors all at once may make it harder, in some cases for the fittest designs to grow market share and succeed.

"In the twenty-first century, the robot will take the place which slave labor occupied in ancient civilization."
Nikola Tesla  1856  -  1943

Best Regards
Clear Ether

[tggzzz]

Am I the only one that has a wry smile when I read the thread's title? I doubt that left-pondians (e.g. the OP) are aware of the colloquial meaning of "a bit of slap and tickle" to those living on the prime meridian.

What about those down under?

[EEVblog]

I have to say I'm opposed to the subsidies on the Tesla P85D, a ~$120k car.

I wouldn't be.
Because
a) Tesla is the first successful new car company in America in the last 50 years
b) Tesla is pioneering a radical new technology direction for one of the countries most important and major industries

If you are going to subsidise something with your tax dollars, then a good argument can be made that this is a good choice.
Looking at the price of the car and thinking it's just a bailout for the wealthy etc is missing the entire point of the subsidy.

[dannyf]

Tesla's car business is relatively immune to falling gas prices as Tesla drivers probably are not primarily motivated by yearly fuel cost savings.

It is more of a status symbol right now - if you go to Silicon valley, that's all you see there. People buy it to be in. So its price or operating expenses are of no consequences - I would suspect that lower prices would actually hurt its sales to that crowd (Giffen goods).

The perverseness in Tesla is that it is a reverse Robin Hood -> the middle class and the poor are subsidizing the rich. It is so wrong on so many different levels.

[coppice]

Japan dominates in battery tech at the moment, and while this is just a factory it does at least keep the US in the game.

If Japan is dominant, how come its market share has shrunk so much?

[tom66]

Japan dominates in battery technology (at least for lithium ion types.) Panasonic has production samples of their 4Ah silicon-anode cell available now, the highest production capacity available.  But manufacturing in Japan is very expensive, compared to e.g. China.

[coppice]

Japan dominates in battery technology (at least for lithium ion types.) Panasonic has production samples of their 4Ah silicon-anode cell available now, the highest production capacity available.  But manufacturing in Japan is very expensive, compared to e.g. China.

Most of Japan's battery makers are on their knees, or have crumbled. Panasonic has been having a terrible time in most areas of consumers goods, including batteries, and have stopped most investment there. People  in Japan told me they would have abandoned batteries if Tesla hadn't come along at the right moment.

Just why is it so expensive to make batteries in Japan? Its not a labour intensive activity. Korea is doing well, and labour is just as expensive there. A number of low labour content industries moved to China, because they could get away with lax environmental practices, but that is changing. Things might not be as strict as in other countries, but you can't just dump all your pollution out the door any more. Its an investment heavy business, and sweet financing deals will definitely make a difference. China has cash. Maybe that's a big factor.

[zapta]

[It is more of a status symbol right now - if you go to Silicon valley, that's all you see there. People buy it to be in. So its price or operating expenses are of no consequences - I would suspect that lower prices would actually hurt its sales to that crowd (Giffen goods).

My dentist wanted to buy a Tesla but his wife objected because "everybody has a Tesla". The next one on the list was Panamera. Now he will have to subsidize other people Teslas.

[SgtRock]

Greetings EEVBees:

--First to Tggzzz, I have family members who are English, I even have an old aunty and some cousins down under. So I can tell a hawk from a hand saw when the wind blows, I know what Arf & Arf is, and I can differentiate knocking someone up, from giving them a bun in the oven. When I was a lad, I remember seeing black and white comic books titled "Pete and Tillie in a Bit of the Old Slap and Tickle". This was before comic genius Peter Sellers made them famous in a more secular way.

--Please see below article, wherein Fiat Chrysler Automobiles Chief Executive Sergio Marchionne requests that you not buy his EVs.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/21/chrsyelr-ceo-evs-idUSL1N0O71MS20140521

"I hope you don't buy it because every time I sell one it costs me $14,000,"

--I seems likely that GM and Fiat Chrysler were "encouraged" to do projects like the Volt and 500E, when the federal bailout terms were being negotiated. Subsidy queens for sure.

--Peter Sellers doing Michael Caine:

"I can find in my undergraduate classes, bright students who do not know that the stars rise and set at night, or even that the Sun is a star."
Carl Sagan 1934  -  1996

Best Regards
Clear Ether

[dannyf]

you not buy his EVs

Two (major) subsidies are going with regards to EV:

1) the federal subsidies on the various programs for EV;
2) CAFE: the subsidies from big vehicle owners to small vehicle / EV owners.

[mtdoc]

--I seems likely that GM and Fiat Chrysler were "encouraged" to do projects like the Volt and 500E, when the federal bailout terms were being negotiated. Subsidy queens for sure.

Nonsense. Any non partisan observer can easily find this out with a simple Google search. (at least for the Volt - I know nothing about the 500E but I suspect the story is the same).

Bob Lutz (a political conservative) began development of the Volt in 2006, The fist concept car was introduced in January 2007 and full development for production vehicles was well underway  long before the bailout of GM in 2009. If anything the GM bankruptcy and bailout delayed its release.

The 2011 documentary "Revenge of the Electric Car" - is fan interesting look at some of the history of Tesla, the Volt and the Leaf.

It is true that Federal mandated fleet MPG requirements have provided an incentive for the big traditional car makers to start making EVs - which is a good thing.

[dannyf]

Two (major) subsidies are going with regards to EV:

That's not counting the free-riding EV owners enjoy for their free use of the transportation infrastructure funded out of the various fuel taxes.

[dannyf]

The only "fairness" EV owners and tree huggers demand is money going their way,

[tom66]

That's not counting the free-riding EV owners enjoy for their free use of the transportation infrastructure funded out of the various fuel taxes.

Fuel tax is a pretty poor way of doing this. A Prius doesn't cause any less damage than a Camry, yet is taxed less. That's unfair!

[nctnico]

No, 9 out of 10 times I drive to a customer I see a Tesla on the road. I drive at random times and not very often so the chance seeing the same car every time is near to zero. Oh, and I stopped counting the Teslas used as taxis from the main airport. BTW the number of Model-S in the NL is closer to 2000 or 3000 (close to 1200 got sold in 2013 alone). With all the tax incentives they are incredibly cheap for private business owners. Around $35000 for the top model.

Sorry, I just don't believe you because what you say is so ridiculously implausible as to defy belief.  Not to mention you have a history of "bending the facts" to suit your anti-EV bias.

You're correct, I was mistaken - there are 2200 Teslas in the Netherlands, or about 1 per 8,000 capita.

1 out of 8000 doesn't make the odds zero. Count how many cars you see during a 45 minute trip in busy traffic. Probably several thousand. I think I made a remark before along the line that Elon Musk is hiring people to stalk me with their Teslas 

[retrolefty]

The only "fairness" EV owners and tree huggers demand is money going their way,

+1

Even knowing that sooner or later they will run out of other people's money.

[tom66]

The only "fairness" ICE owners and advocates demand is pollution and environmental damage for everyone, 

[mtdoc]

The fossil fuel and ICE industry has received massive public subsidies for years. Subsidies that everyone pays whether they drive or not.

The major "subsidy"  for EVs in the US is the income tax credit.  This is a tax credit - basically a reduction in the amount of taxes the EV buyer owes for one year - up to a max of $7500. Note they only get that if they owe over $7500 in taxes already (or get less if they owe less). The only credit they get is on what they would have paid in taxes.  So - no one else is paying for it.  A few states have similar state income tax credits -but most don't.

It's funny how the conservative anti-EV idealogues are all for tax cuts for the corporations responsible for fossil fuels and ICEs and pretty much anyone else but endlessly whine when individuals who drive an EV get a tax cut. 

BTW, the EV tax credit came from the Bush administration and was renewed by a Republican controlled congress and it expires after a manufacturer has sold 200K qualifying vehicles.  But still - the whining continues....

[retrolefty]

The major "subsidy"  for EVs in the US is the income tax credit.  This is a tax credit - basically a reduction in the amount of taxes the EV buyer owes for one year - up to $7500. Note they only get that if they owe over $7500 in taxes already. So - no one else is paying for it.  A few states have similar state income tax credits -but most don't.

 Are you sure? So how does the federal budget respond to this $7500 reduction in their income? Cut spending by $7.5K for each person that takes advantage? Increase taxes to compensate for the reduction? Or just increase the federal deficit?

[mtdoc]

So retrolefty - I assume you are opposed to tax cuts then?

[free_electron]

I have to say I'm opposed to the subsidies on the Tesla P85D, a ~$120k car. There's a rumour going about that GM will start selling a 200 mile Chevy "Bolt", that's pure electric, starting at around $30k.

Eh, the subsidies are for ALL electric vehicles, including the Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt ! so if you buy a 38000$ Leaf you also get 10K$ ! And like retrolefty said : you only get up to 7500 if you already owed that amount to the government. if your total taxes were only 1000$ you only get 1000$ back ...

So, that being out of the way : go ask GM if they have repaid their multibillion dollar loan yet ... The government bailed them out for 49 Billion dollar. The government wrote off 11 billion of our taxpayer dollars as pure loss. ...

only a nut would buy a bolt.

[mtdoc]

free - electron - I know you work for Tesla - didn't you get the memo from Elon :  The Chevy Bolt and similar cars are a good thing for Tesla

The greatest obstacle to Tesla’s long-term success is not rival electric cars, but a global transportation infrastructure that is built for gasoline-powered cars rather than battery-electrics. For Tesla to crack the mass market, it needs other major automakers to invest heavily in electric-vehicle technology, including a network of charging stations that would allow for long road trips in battery-powered cars. That’s why the company opened its patents to competitors last year. At this stage in its growth, Tesla wants more rivals, not fewer. So should everyone who believes that burning fossil fuels is bad for the environment.

That’s why it isn’t surprising that Tesla reacted to the Bolt’s debut by welcoming Chevy to the party. “We are always supportive of other manufacturers who bring compelling electric vehicles to the market,” Tesla representative Alexis Georgeson told me. “Tesla applauds Chevrolet for introducing the Bolt, and we are excited to learn more about the product.”