### Author Topic: Force multiplier  (Read 15082 times)

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#### electrodacus

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##### Force multiplier
« on: February 02, 2023, 04:52:19 am »
I have 3 examples a) mechanical , b) hydraulic and c) electrical
All of them have floating body/cylinder/GND and thus F2 can not be different from F1 or in case of electric version output current will be the same as input.

Curious if you think any of this examples are not a good analog or if you think F2 will be different than F1.  I was trying to explain just the case a) but for some reason when I say floating body is the reason F2 = F1 people do not understand that and thing F2 can be 2x F1 or whatever the gear ratio is.
Only when the body of the vehicle (with blue) is connected to ground you can have force multiplication else F2 will be equal with F1.

#### Miyuki

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2023, 01:53:16 pm »
People do think that they can connect the heat pump to another heat pump and get extra free energy, even to run a heat engine with the output.
Or to close it in a box to not accumulate ice
There are some major flaws in elementary science/physics teaching in almost all educational systems.
Or it is just too foreign a concept for people's brains, I don't know.

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#### TimFox

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2023, 02:49:37 pm »
In simple mechanics, a lever works to conserve energy/work by this multiplication:
W = F1 x S1 = F2 x S2
where F is the force on each end and S is the distance traveled on each end.
If you replace the distance S with speed v = dS/dt at each end, then you have the conservation of power F x v.
An obvious analog in electrical systems is a transformer, where the product of voltage and current (power) is the same at primary and secondary.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 02:53:23 pm by TimFox »

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#### Stray Electron

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2023, 03:26:27 pm »
I have 3 examples a) mechanical , b) hydraulic and c) electrical
All of them have floating body/cylinder/GND and thus F2 can not be different from F1 or in case of electric version output current will be the same as input.

Curious if you think any of this examples are not a good analog or if you think F2 will be different than F1.  I was trying to explain just the case a) but for some reason when I say floating body is the reason F2 = F1 people do not understand that and thing F2 can be 2x F1 or whatever the gear ratio is.
Only when the body of the vehicle (with blue) is connected to ground you can have force multiplication else F2 will be equal with F1.

I'm assuming by F that you mean Force.  If so then F1 can be equal, greater or less than F2 in any system*.  But the Input and Output POWER will be same in all systems (minus internal losses such as friction or resistance in electrical systems).

Power and Force are not the same thing.

* in electrical system examples could be a 1 to 1 transformer, a step up transformer, or a step down transformer. You can do exactly the same in hydraulic or pneumatic systems by varying the size of the cylinders relative to one another (look at the brake system in any vehicle).  In a mechanical system, you can vary the length of the levers relative to each other. Or you can vary gear rations, or pulley sizes.

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#### electrodacus

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2023, 04:57:25 pm »
People do think that they can connect the heat pump to another heat pump and get extra free energy, even to run a heat engine with the output.
Or to close it in a box to not accumulate ice
There are some major flaws in elementary science/physics teaching in almost all educational systems.
Or it is just too foreign a concept for people's brains, I don't know.

I think is a combination of both.  It is probably to abstract for most people and the educational system is not helping.
There are setups with two heat pumps in series in order to be able to achieve higher delta in temperature than it can be achieved with a single one but there is no energy advantage.

#### electrodacus

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2023, 05:10:45 pm »
In simple mechanics, a lever works to conserve energy/work by this multiplication:
W = F1 x S1 = F2 x S2
where F is the force on each end and S is the distance traveled on each end.
If you replace the distance S with speed v = dS/dt at each end, then you have the conservation of power F x v.
An obvious analog in electrical systems is a transformer, where the product of voltage and current (power) is the same at primary and secondary.

Force and distance traveled is the same on both ends and so there is no force multiplication in all this particular cases.
If body of the vehicle (blue), and cylinder for case b are connected to ground then there will be force multiplication but with the floating body/cylinder forces and displacements will remain equal on both sides.
Same as with electrical equivalent example where output current can not be different from input current due to floating ground. If that blue wire is connected to battery negative then all will work correctly and you can have higher voltage on output than input.

#### electrodacus

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2023, 05:13:14 pm »
I don't understand C. Wouldn't the DC-to-DC converter not work without a reference to ground?

Yes the DC-DC converter can not work without the ground (blue wire) being connected to battery negative. This will be called floating ground and is the equivalent to a) and b)

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#### electrodacus

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2023, 05:18:27 pm »
I'm assuming by F that you mean Force.  If so then F1 can be equal, greater or less than F2 in any system*.  But the Input and Output POWER will be same in all systems (minus internal losses such as friction or resistance in electrical systems).

Power and Force are not the same thing.

* in electrical system examples could be a 1 to 1 transformer, a step up transformer, or a step down transformer. You can do exactly the same in hydraulic or pneumatic systems by varying the size of the cylinders relative to one another (look at the brake system in any vehicle).  In a mechanical system, you can vary the length of the levers relative to each other. Or you can vary gear rations, or pulley sizes.

You are missing the main point in all of this examples.
They all have a floating body/cylinder/GND thus they can not do Force/Voltage multiplication.

If I connect the body (blue) to ground in case a then F2 can be 2xF1 or whatever the gear ratio is but else it will not work and F2=F1
Same thing for case b) where cylinder body is floating and needs to be attached to ground in order to work as intended else F2=F1
And case c) the boost converter can not work unless the blue wire is connected to battery negative.

#### Stray Electron

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2023, 05:32:04 pm »
I don't know if you posted pictures of not but if you did then I don't see them so your "blue wire" comments means nothing to me.  But to your point, without an electrical ground or a mechanical "ground" or some other frame of reference, then there is no such thing as voltage (Force) or mechanical Force so your whole question is meaningless.

#### electrodacus

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2023, 05:38:42 pm »
Ok it all makes sense now after looking at example A) again.

I don't even know how to replay.  I was trying for months to explain why F2 = F1 in example A) and I was not able to convince anyone.
The reason was likely because people have seen the real equivalent of A) moving to the right but did not understood why and preferred to think is just due to gear ratio and ignored my more complex explanation and even video proof.
Understanding this is the key to understand how direct upwind powered by wind vehicle works.

#### pcprogrammer

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2023, 05:39:12 pm »
There are setups with two heat pumps in series in order to be able to achieve higher delta in temperature than it can be achieved with a single one but there is no energy advantage.

Since you have to have two compressors running you use more electrical power to get the higher output temperature, so it should not be that difficult to understand that there is no energy advantage.

I don't understand C. Wouldn't the DC-to-DC converter not work without a reference to ground?

I was wondering about this too. What type of circuit can raise the voltage without having a ground reference?

The example in b I can easily grasp. For a hydraulic system to work as a force multiplier the cylinder has to be fixed to some medium to allow displacement of the fluid within it.

Example a depends a bit on the properties the red block. Can it move. If not then the forces should be the same since the blue construct will remain stationary even if both the wheels spin. If the red block can move the force will be different due to the differences in speed, but will also lead to the blue construct to move.

Wow my brain has not been bothered with this kind of material since ages

P.S. While typing and thinking other posts where written, which I did not check on their content.

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#### electrodacus

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2023, 05:40:00 pm »
I don't know if you posted pictures of not but if you did then I don't see them so your "blue wire" comments means nothing to me.  But to your point, without an electrical ground or a mechanical "ground" or some other frame of reference, then there is no such thing as voltage (Force) or mechanical Force so your whole question is meaningless.

Not sure why you do not see the image but here is a direct link if it helps http://electrodacus.com/temp/Forcem.png

#### electrodacus

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2023, 05:46:32 pm »
Since you have to have two compressors running you use more electrical power to get the higher output temperature, so it should not be that difficult to understand that there is no energy advantage.

There is no energy advantage.  But you can obtain a higher temperature delta if that is needed. Heat pumps have a limit on the max temperature delta they can achieve so uning multiple stages you can get to lower temperatures. That will be needed in some applications like say cooling image sensors using 2 or 3 peltier stages.

I was wondering about this too. What type of circuit can raise the voltage without having a ground reference?

The example in b I can easily grasp. For a hydraulic system to work as a force multiplier the cylinder has to be fixed to some medium to allow displacement of the fluid within it.

Example a depends a bit on the properties the red block. Can it move. If not then the forces should be the same since the blue construct will remain stationary even if both the wheels spin. If the red block can move the force will be different due to the differences in speed, but will also lead to the blue construct to move.

Wow my brain has not been bothered with this kind of material since ages

P.S. While typing and thinking other posts where written, which I did not check on their content.

No circuit can rise the voltage with a floating ground and that is the point of the example. All 3 examples shows that they can not work as intended so they can not do force or voltage multiplication.

#### pcprogrammer

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2023, 05:56:47 pm »
There is no energy advantage.  But you can obtain a higher temperature delta if that is needed. Heat pumps have a limit on the max temperature delta they can achieve so uning multiple stages you can get to lower temperatures. That will be needed in some applications like say cooling image sensors using 2 or 3 peltier stages.

Yeah, that is what I tried to express. I know it is also used in house heating systems where there is a need for >60 degrees of water temperature due to the used radiators.

No circuit can rise the voltage with a floating ground and that is the point of the example. All 3 examples shows that they can not work as intended so they can not do force or voltage multiplication.

Since you only mentioned that current being equal in example c I was thrown of a bit. It makes more sense knowing that the voltage is the same to understand it as intended.

#### pcprogrammer

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2023, 05:59:37 pm »
Example A vehicle will not move because it has no reference to ground. Its only references are that are through its wheels. In this case the right wheel is in reference to the belt on the right which is wanting to push it toward the left. However the wheel on the left is wanting to push it toward the right due to the power that it receives from its belt attached to both wheels. But it cannot move to the right because the force that is making it want to move to the right is equal to or less than the force that it is receiving through the right wheel and that force is making it want to move to the left.

The only reference to ground that it has is through the red box on the left through the left wheel but that isn't enough, the vehicle itself is floating in mid air.

Essentially cancelling themselves out.

That is why I questioned the red box. It only is valid if it can't move, and the system is in equilibrium.

#### electrodacus

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2023, 06:10:05 pm »

For a force multiplier to work it needs a reference to ground, something to push against.

Now prepare to be shocked    as the vehicle in case a moves to the right so in the opposite direction of the applied force.
https://odysee.com/@dacustemp:8/wheel-cart-energy-storage-slow:8

It uses a combination of energy storage (belt is elastic) and stick slip histeresis. There is a minimum force needed for the front wheel to start to slip and once that happens force need to drop quite a bit for the wheel to stick again.

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#### Nominal Animal

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2023, 06:14:34 pm »
No, not this again.

Example A vehicle will not move because it has no reference to ground.
Funnily enough, in the thread where this diagram first came up, I demonstrated an analogous vehicle (constructed of Lego) with sufficiently high gearing ratio does move.  I even used a worm gear, to ensure there is no energy storage nor slip-stick effects.  Didn't sway OP, because this is about belief and not physics for them.

The claimed diagram has very little to nothing to do with physics, it's just a drawing showing OP's beliefs.  That's fine, but don't mistake them to have any relation to physical, observable and measurable reality.

The exact Lego model I have, uses a worm gear to a vertical axis, with a pull string connected to that vertical axis.  (Rotating the vertical axis makes its wheels turn, but because of the worm gear, the wheels cannot rotate the vertical axis.)

Regardless of the horizontal direction you pull, if the model has sufficient traction, it will go forwards.  It travels just fine in the opposite direction compared to the direction you pull the string, for example; and just as well in the same direction you pull, and if sufficiently heavy (good traction), can travel faster in the direction you pull than you pull the string.  Last time, OP claimed was impossible, pivoting to 'possible only due to "slip-stick hysteresis"'.  There's nothing like that; basic proper Newtonian mechanics describes this perfectly, even if feels "weird" or unintuitive to most people.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 06:22:27 pm by Nominal Animal »

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#### Nominal Animal

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2023, 06:27:25 pm »
I forget who first described having done it in that other thread, but they tried basically the same thing with a heavy spool of soldering wire, with the wire coming off the spool at the bottom.  If the spool has sufficient traction (doesn't slip), pulling on the wire causes the spool to roll faster towards you than you pull the wire, re-spooling the wire back onto the spool!  Funky, eh?  But quite expected, physically speaking.

#### electrodacus

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2023, 06:28:40 pm »
I will say that the original image does not mention anything about friction materials (eg rubber) being attached to the wheels. Something which I consider to be a failing.

It also doesn't cover nor mention if any of the objects are attached to the table.

A lot of assumptions need to be made.

I also have my doubts as to weather or not the electrical model is an exact comparison to the physical and hydraulic ones.

Yes the original image has no mention of energy storage or stick slip hysteresis.  The vehicle in the video can only work because it uses both energy storage and stick slip hysteresis. Removing either energy storage (harder to do) or stick slip hysteresis and vehicle will not move or move in the direction of the forced applied if back/left wheel can slip
Here is a video demonstrating that  https://odysee.com/@dacustemp:8/stick-slip-removed-from-front-wheels:0

So the diagram A) as it is is interpreted correctly as F2 can not be larger than F1. In real world there are other effects not considered in the simple theoretical model.

What I try to demonstrate is that a wind only powered vehicle can not move directly upwind without energy storage. And the same is true for any wind powered vehicle that moves directly downwind faster than wind.
A vehicle can only move faster than wind direct downwind for a limited amount of time based on the amount of stored energy.
But I could not explain how wind powered vehicle works since people did not understood what I call floating body on this vehicle.

#### electrodacus

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2023, 06:31:20 pm »
I forget who first described having done it in that other thread, but they tried basically the same thing with a heavy spool of soldering wire, with the wire coming off the spool at the bottom.  If the spool has sufficient traction (doesn't slip), pulling on the wire causes the spool to roll faster towards you than you pull the wire, re-spooling the wire back onto the spool!  Funky, eh?  But quite expected, physically speaking.

Glad to see you back.
Please explain how F2 can be larger than F1 without involving energy storage.
Also do you see any difference between A, B and C ?  Cand F2 be different from F1 in case B for example ? It seems case B is simpler to understand for most than case A even if they are equivalent.

#### Nominal Animal

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2023, 06:39:13 pm »
No, I will not be sucked back to discussing your understanding of oversimplified models that only consider a couple of linear forces involved, and ignore the important things like the rotary forces (torque).

Your question here is the physics equivalent of "Have you stopped raping women yet?"
The entire premise of the diagrams modeling something is incorrect, thus all related questions are ill-posed, and trying to answer them correctly starts from correcting the model, which you flatly refuse.

Until you model the situation correctly, there is as much sense in trying to discuss/analyse/explain its details to you, as there would be discussing what the exact mechanism is that makes razor blades sharpen by themselves when placed inside a pyramid.

I do wish you well, electrodacus, but I do not believe I have the inner strength to help you understand; you're too convinced of your own beliefs.

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#### electrodacus

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2023, 06:57:05 pm »
Removed my post because it was full of errors.

Essentially what you've created in example A is equivalent to a rear wheel drive vehicle, and will move forward because its receiving rotational power and transferring that power to the rear wheel. It doesn't matter if its receiving that power from either a rotating engine or a slipping piece of paper. Paper slips a lot more easily on a table top than it does against a piece of rubber on a wheel so therefore your example videos do move forward.

It is not equivalent to examples B and C.

Let me explain what happens in that first video I linked.

Watch that at 0.25x speed to see the details.

When the paper starts to move it can only move because the belt is elastic so F1 is equal F2 vehicle is not moving but the input wheel rotates meaning energy is being stored as elastic energy.
F1 and F2 will still be equal and continue to increase until input wheel slips. At this point there is stored energy in the belt so inside the vehicle and that is what allows vehicle to be accelerated forward for a small amount of time until the front wheel sticks again and the process repeats.
So there is an energy storage device and F1=F2 until that stored energy is used to increase F2 as the front wheel slips.
This will not work if there was no energy storage and also if there was no stick slip hysteresis to allow triggering or charge and discharge cycles.

So all 3 cases A,B and C are equivalent as defined in the diagram and if I were to add the energy storage and stick slip hysteresis to A as definition then vehicle will work as seen in the video but F2 still equals F2 until the combination of slip at input wheel and stored energy is involved.
energy in still equals energy out is only that you have some power in and no power out when charging then you have power out when discharging and also power in but less power in while discharging thus the vehicle moves to the right.

#### electrodacus

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2023, 06:59:19 pm »
No, I will not be sucked back to discussing your understanding of oversimplified models that only consider a couple of linear forces involved, and ignore the important things like the rotary forces (torque).

Your question here is the physics equivalent of "Have you stopped raping women yet?"
The entire premise of the diagrams modeling something is incorrect, thus all related questions are ill-posed, and trying to answer them correctly starts from correcting the model, which you flatly refuse.

Until you model the situation correctly, there is as much sense in trying to discuss/analyse/explain its details to you, as there would be discussing what the exact mechanism is that makes razor blades sharpen by themselves when placed inside a pyramid.

I do wish you well, electrodacus, but I do not believe I have the inner strength to help you understand; you're too convinced of your own beliefs.

You said nothing with your comment.  What is it missing in the diagram A ? Energy storage and stick slip hysteresis ?

#### PlainName

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2023, 07:05:10 pm »
And the same is true for any wind powered vehicle that moves directly downwind faster than wind.

Wrong. Don't start this again, please. Just take your beliefs and believe them - you don't need converts to validate your belief if it's strong enough (and it surely is that, and then some).

#### tom66

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##### Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2023, 07:11:43 pm »
I don't understand C. Wouldn't the DC-to-DC converter not work without a reference to ground?

Indeed. 'C' does nothing but leak some uA through the transistors.  Definitely won't boost anything!

Smf