Author Topic: Force multiplier  (Read 33994 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1862
  • Country: ca
    • electrodacus
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #150 on: February 09, 2023, 12:02:47 am »
Quote
Is this helpful ?

You tell me. I reckon I know what you'll say, but say it anyway.

I was not about to say anything and waiting to see what was your answer.

Did you think that F1 was applied between the right wheel and some other part of the vehicle ?
F1 is relative to ground.

Offline HuronKing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 247
  • Country: us
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #151 on: February 09, 2023, 12:14:47 am »
It seems to me the only Force Multiplier in this thread is the OP's ability to get so much engagement on a tired subject they can't let go.  ;D
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1862
  • Country: ca
    • electrodacus
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #152 on: February 09, 2023, 12:22:53 am »
It seems to me the only Force Multiplier in this thread is the OP's ability to get so much engagement on a tired subject they can't let go.  ;D

Do you understand what a force multiplier is ? And also that it requires 3 points of contact in order to work ?
If so you understand that this vehicle with just two points of contact can not do force multiplication.

Same as the electrical circuit in example (c) can not do any voltage boost with a floating ground.
How is electrical engineering easier to understand than mechanical ?

Online fourfathom

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2005
  • Country: us
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #153 on: February 09, 2023, 01:32:15 am »
Do you understand what a force multiplier is ? And also that it requires 3 points of contact in order to work ?
If so you understand that this vehicle with just two points of contact can not do force multiplication.
The reference plane doesn't matter. 

So bolt the chassis of Nominal's two-wheel device to the ground.  That's #1
Put your hand one one of the wheels and give it a spin.  That's #2
Place something on the other wheel, It doesn't matter what, but let's say it's a treadmill.  That's #3

Rearrange the points of contact however you like.  It doesn't matter, the thing works.  No stick, no slip, no fooling.
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 

Offline HuronKing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 247
  • Country: us
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #154 on: February 09, 2023, 01:39:21 am »
It seems to me the only Force Multiplier in this thread is the OP's ability to get so much engagement on a tired subject they can't let go.  ;D

Do you understand what a force multiplier is ?

Do you understand what a joke is?  :scared:
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1862
  • Country: ca
    • electrodacus
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #155 on: February 09, 2023, 01:40:17 am »
So bolt the chassis of Nominal's two-wheel device to the ground.  That's #1
Put your hand one one of the wheels and give it a spin.  That's #2
Place something on the other wheel, It doesn't matter what, but let's say it's a treadmill.  That's #3

Rearrange the points of contact however you like.  It doesn't matter, the thing works.  No stick, no slip, no fooling.

Fully agree with what you are saying but that is not the setup we are discussing.
You are describing a functional gearbox / force multiplier with 3 points of contact.
You have the case/body connected to ground and you have an input and an output.

The one in diagram (a) has the input connected to treadmill the output on the red box and that is all as the body is floating and not connected to ground it can not multiply / amplify the force.
To do force multiplication you need a device that has 3 points of contact and it will never work with just two.

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1862
  • Country: ca
    • electrodacus
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #156 on: February 09, 2023, 01:43:05 am »
It seems to me the only Force Multiplier in this thread is the OP's ability to get so much engagement on a tired subject they can't let go.  ;D

Do you understand what a force multiplier is ?

Do you understand what a joke is?  :scared:

It seems your ability to make jokes is at least as bad as your understanding of physics.

Offline HuronKing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 247
  • Country: us
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #157 on: February 09, 2023, 01:45:31 am »
It seems to me the only Force Multiplier in this thread is the OP's ability to get so much engagement on a tired subject they can't let go.  ;D

Do you understand what a force multiplier is ?

Do you understand what a joke is?  :scared:

It seems your ability to make jokes is at least as bad as your understanding of physics.

I haven't even said anything on this topic in any capacity and already you're calling me an idiot.  :-DD

To every action (a joke) is opposed an equal reaction (your inability to take the joke).  :-DD
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1862
  • Country: ca
    • electrodacus
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #158 on: February 09, 2023, 01:52:32 am »
It seems to me the only Force Multiplier in this thread is the OP's ability to get so much engagement on a tired subject they can't let go.  ;D

Do you understand what a force multiplier is ?

Do you understand what a joke is?  :scared:

It seems your ability to make jokes is at least as bad as your understanding of physics.

I haven't even said anything on this topic in any capacity and already you're calling me an idiot.  :-DD

To every action (a joke) is opposed an equal reaction (your inability to take the joke).  :-DD

It seems your ability to make jokes (a joke) is at least as bad as your understanding of physics (your inability to take the joke). :)

I'm trying to explain this highschool level physics for the past few months and I do not longer find anything funny. 

Offline HuronKing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 247
  • Country: us
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #159 on: February 09, 2023, 02:05:07 am »
It seems your ability to make jokes (a joke) is at least as bad as your understanding of physics (your inability to take the joke). :)

I'm trying to explain this highschool level physics for the past few months and I do not longer find anything funny.

Look, bro, some advice. Maybe I completely agree with you (I don't, but you're an expert at thought experiments so pretend I do). I made a joke about the fact that every couple months you start one of these threads and, pretty unanimously, the board disagrees with you every... single... time.

Now, the joke here is that this thread is called "force multiplier" so it appears that one poster (you) is able to conjure up some pretty remarkable reactionary forces out of proportion to their size despite how many times this topic has been hashed, rehashed, triple hashed, and no one is convinced by you.

Now remember, in this thought experiment, we are pretending I think you're absolutely right. So, my understanding of physics would be on par with yours.

But instead, you instantly turn towards calling me an idiot without even knowing what I think about you, or your arguments. All I said is its funny how strong a reaction you get... every single time. Force multiplier? Get it? Do you get it?

And there is an extra joke there - that you might have called someone who agrees with you an idiot for agreeing with you. So that makes you an idiot too, right?  >:D

So,
1) You're incapable of understanding I was making a pretty obvious joke given you tried to lecture me without even pausing to recognize the absurdity of this thread and the last... 3 threads there have been on this?
2) You're incapable of taking a joke that might even peripherally be at your expense.
3) You're incapable of even recognizing that turning towards calling people idiots without even knowing their opinions of your physics will just make people plain not like you - even if they agree with you.
4) You're incapable of explaining high school physics.

I've been a teacher for 10 years and a tutor for almost 20. You are really, really bad at teaching. And if this isn't fun or interesting or engaging for you... you can just stop. That's the advice.

But you might also be incapable of that.  :-X
« Last Edit: February 09, 2023, 02:08:19 am by HuronKing »
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1862
  • Country: ca
    • electrodacus
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #160 on: February 09, 2023, 02:37:38 am »
It seems your ability to make jokes (a joke) is at least as bad as your understanding of physics (your inability to take the joke). :)

I'm trying to explain this highschool level physics for the past few months and I do not longer find anything funny.

Look, bro, some advice. Maybe I completely agree with you (I don't, but you're an expert at thought experiments so pretend I do). I made a joke about the fact that every couple months you start one of these threads and, pretty unanimously, the board disagrees with you every... single... time.

Now, the joke here is that this thread is called "force multiplier" so it appears that one poster (you) is able to conjure up some pretty remarkable reactionary forces out of proportion to their size despite how many times this topic has been hashed, rehashed, triple hashed, and no one is convinced by you.

Now remember, in this thought experiment, we are pretending I think you're absolutely right. So, my understanding of physics would be on par with yours.

But instead, you instantly turn towards calling me an idiot without even knowing what I think about you, or your arguments. All I said is its funny how strong a reaction you get... every single time. Force multiplier? Get it? Do you get it?

And there is an extra joke there - that you might have called someone who agrees with you an idiot for agreeing with you. So that makes you an idiot too, right?  >:D

So,
1) You're incapable of understanding I was making a pretty obvious joke given you tried to lecture me without even pausing to recognize the absurdity of this thread and the last... 3 threads there have been on this?
2) You're incapable of taking a joke that might even peripherally be at your expense.
3) You're incapable of even recognizing that turning towards calling people idiots without even knowing their opinions of your physics will just make people plain not like you - even if they agree with you.
4) You're incapable of explaining high school physics.

I've been a teacher for 10 years and a tutor for almost 20. You are really, really bad at teaching. And if this isn't fun or interesting or engaging for you... you can just stop. That's the advice.

But you might also be incapable of that.  :-X

I have periods when I'm quite busy with my own business so yes there were multiple times when I tried to explain and needed to give up because I no longer had the time to waste.

I see what your view was but this simple problem wrongly understood has huge implications in all fields of engineering and science.
I'm not a physicist and I'm not enjoying explaining this (not am I good at explaining) but I do not see anyone else offering to explain this and it looks like majority memorize "facts" instead of properly understanding.

So my reaction to your "joke" is as frustration to my inability to explain this "simple" (simple to me) problem.

I was quite convinced that the other two examples will be understood and then with that example (a) will also be understood but apparently I was wrong.
There are even people thinking that (c) can work so you can have a different current current at output than input in a floating GND circuit and that is on a electronics hobby forum.
So this every action has an equal and opposite reaction is not understood by majority (it makes it even worse that people that argue with me have an engineering degree).

So yes I understand I'm very bad at explaining / teaching and this is also not fun for me but I can not stop as I do not live in complete isolation.   
I depend on other people same as everybody else and world can be better and safer if more people can understand this important part of physics (the every action has an equal and opposite reaction).

If I were to be able to explain to you what the issue is and assume you understand it. Will you be willing to spend time explaining to others ?
My goal is to find just a few people that can understand until the info becomes widespread and the misinformation is corrected.

Else people will think that a wind only powered vehicle can drive directly downwind faster than wind for unlimited amount of time.
All this based on a series of incomplete experiments that do not show that to be true. What they show is that vehicle can exceed wind speed but is due to energy storage and that means it will be above that speed only for a limited amount of time proportional with the amount of stored energy.
And while I'm bad at explaining I'm not stupid and if I was wrong and everybody else was right then I will have been able to understand.

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1862
  • Country: ca
    • electrodacus
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #161 on: February 09, 2023, 03:04:56 am »
Here is another method of explaining using pulling instead of pushing.
In below image you see a typical example of Newton's third law maybe similar to what you will find in a school physics book.
Now imagine replacing that Newton meter indicator will some sort of gearbox so input is connected towards human and output towards wall.
Gearbox is floating in mid air same as that Newton meter so only two points of contact.  Can you imagine human pulling with say 100N and wall experiencing anything other than same 100N in opposite direction ?
If so please explain and if not then how is case (a) any different ?

 

Online fourfathom

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2005
  • Country: us
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #162 on: February 09, 2023, 03:14:02 am »
Please explain how slip-stick hysteresis adds power to a system.
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1862
  • Country: ca
    • electrodacus
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #163 on: February 09, 2023, 03:28:37 am »
Please explain how slip-stick hysteresis adds power to a system.

It does not add power. Stick slip hysteresis allows the energy to be charged and discharged.
So in this slow motion video https://odysee.com/@dacustemp:8/wheel-cart-energy-storage-slow:8

You can see the treadmill / moving paper applies a force that makes the input wheel (the one on the right) to rotate as the belt is being stretched.
The force will increase until the point that force is large enough to make the input wheel slip.
There is a difference between the static friction and kinetic friction thus the hysteresis and so as soon as the wheel slips the force drops instantly and thus the stored energy in the rubber belt can power the vehicle so that stored elastic energy is converted into kinetic energy.
But as the energy in the belt is discharged the force drops and so the front wheel sticks again and the process will repeat.

So the stick slip hysteresis is the trigger for charge and discharge of the stored energy. So during discharge is like vehicle is powered from inside instead of outside.
If there was no energy storage or the input wheel could not slip the vehicle could only move in the direction of applied force so to the left as seen in this other video where friction at the output wheels (left wheels) is reduced so to ensure they slip before the input wheels.
https://odysee.com/@dacustemp:8/stick-slip-removed-from-front-wheels:0  first 15 seconds.

Online fourfathom

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2005
  • Country: us
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #164 on: February 09, 2023, 06:20:34 am »
Quote
Stick slip hysteresis allows the energy to be charged and discharged.
You do realize that this makes no sense whatsoever, don't you?
If there is energy to be charged and discharged, this same energy can be delivered in a steady continuous manner, with the wheels not slipping or sticking.
But forget energy.  Forget power.  Just consider the geometry.  If the geometry works but your physics doesn't, then your physics is wrong.
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #165 on: February 09, 2023, 07:16:09 am »
It's like trying to bang a nail in with a hammer, but whatever you do and however you hold the hammer, the nail always manages to be slightly somewhere else at the critical moment. Keep coming back because it's one of those things you can't quite believe unless you see it  ::)

After a couple of unsuccessful whacks I'll wander off and get my screwgun or pneumatic nailer.
 

Online fourfathom

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2005
  • Country: us
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #166 on: February 09, 2023, 07:26:57 am »
It's kind of like this, but not as funny:

(Tremors "hammer" scene)
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 
The following users thanked this post: PlainName, james_s, Nominal Animal

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #167 on: February 09, 2023, 07:29:12 am »
It's kind of like this, but not as funny:
(Tremors "hammer" scene)

I laughed out loud at that, he's just flailing with that hammer.
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1862
  • Country: ca
    • electrodacus
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #168 on: February 09, 2023, 03:06:41 pm »
Quote
Stick slip hysteresis allows the energy to be charged and discharged.
You do realize that this makes no sense whatsoever, don't you?
If there is energy to be charged and discharged, this same energy can be delivered in a steady continuous manner, with the wheels not slipping or sticking.
But forget energy.  Forget power.  Just consider the geometry.  If the geometry works but your physics doesn't, then your physics is wrong.

You do realize that the vehicle needs to move in the opposite direction of applied force ?
"Kinematics is the study of motion of a system of bodies without directly considering the forces or potential fields affecting the motion"

And you seen the real world tests witch show exactly what I'm saying so not a constant speed except for the case where vehicle is dragged in the direction of applied force.
When vehicle moves fast in the opposite direction the motion is not constant as there is acceleration and deceleration but unless you measure that or slow down the video the human brain is not able to see that same way as the human brain is not able to see the 100 or 120 cycles per second an incandescent light bulb intensity increases and drops.
You will just say look at the bulb the light is continuous with no dips and I say make measurements or take high speed video and measure based on the slowed down video information.
Same as filament on the light bulb can not cool much in that very short period where current is zero or close to the speed of the vehicle can not drop to much as it is smooth out by the kinetic energy but even with that there is a small variation same as there is a variation in temperature for the light bulb filament.
If you reduce the AC current from say 50Hz (100 times crossing through zero) to 5Hz (10 times) you will notice the change in light intensity without needing a measurement device or slowed down video.
Same if you reduce the speed of the treadmill enough you will notice the charge discharge cycles and the associated vehicle speed variation same as seen in my slow down video.

Offline Nominal Animal

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7198
  • Country: fi
    • My home page and email address
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #169 on: February 09, 2023, 04:09:28 pm »
You do realize that the vehicle needs to move in the opposite direction of applied force ?
That's not what Newton's first law of motion says.

In other words, what you insinuate there, is utterly wrong: you're actually saying, "You do realize that incorrect assertion".  This is a really weird and awkward way to ask someone if they too misunderstand in the same way as yourself.  Odd.
 

Online fourfathom

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2005
  • Country: us
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #170 on: February 09, 2023, 04:16:41 pm »
You do realize that the vehicle needs to move in the opposite direction of applied force ?

"And yet it moves." 

It's amazing to watch how you twist yourself up in your pretzel logic.  But I suppose if your fundamental premise is wrong...
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 

Online IanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12539
  • Country: us
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #171 on: February 09, 2023, 04:24:02 pm »
It's especially strange after all the arguments that F2 is equal and opposite to F1, and yet suddenly when it comes to the direction of movement of the cart we have that F1 is the "applied force" and no mention of F2. If F1 and F2 are equal and opposite, why can't F2 be the applied force?
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1862
  • Country: ca
    • electrodacus
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #172 on: February 09, 2023, 04:24:11 pm »
You do realize that the vehicle needs to move in the opposite direction of applied force ?
That's not what Newton's first law of motion says.

In other words, what you insinuate there, is utterly wrong: you're actually saying, "You do realize that incorrect assertion".  This is a really weird and awkward way to ask someone if they too misunderstand in the same way as yourself.  Odd.

That question may not be phrased great and it is taken out of question.

The treadmill moves to the left so it pushes the vehicle to the left by applying F1 at the right wheel.
The vehicle due to the way the wheels are connected will want to move to the right so in the opposite direction but it can not do that since F2 can not be larger than F1 this vehicle is stuck same as if it was all a single solid object.
This F2 = F1 is due to Newton's 3'rd law and without energy storage (belt stretched) and right wheel slip the vehicle could not move to the right thus against the direction of applied force F1

What I was trying to say is that no device can move against the direction of applied force unless it uses energy storage and stick slip hysteresis.
Not only I say that but it is clearly visible in the slow motion video I made.

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1862
  • Country: ca
    • electrodacus
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #173 on: February 09, 2023, 04:33:37 pm »
It's especially strange after all the arguments that F2 is equal and opposite to F1, and yet suddenly when it comes to the direction of movement of the cart we have that F1 is the "applied force" and no mention of F2. If F1 and F2 are equal and opposite, why can't F2 be the applied force?

This vehicle right wheel is the input wheel in the way it is setup.
It is not like when you apply F1 it takes some time until you get F2 they are a pair so at the same instant you have F1 you will also have the equal and opposite F2 so there is no delay.


See the image below that you normally find in a textbook when Newton's 3'rd law is explained
Will you say that F1 is at the human side as applied force and F2 is at the wall as equal and opposite ?
Can you imagine replacing that Newton force meter with some sort of gear box like what we have in case (a) and will that be able to change the ratio between F1 at human and F2 at the wall ?
Of course it will not be able to do that no matter what you replace that Newton meter with.


Offline Kasper

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 793
  • Country: ca
Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #174 on: February 09, 2023, 04:58:25 pm »
If you want to compare hydraulics to a boost smps, look at hydraulic ram pump.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf