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Force multiplier

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electrodacus:

--- Quote from: Kasper on February 09, 2023, 04:58:25 pm ---If you want to compare hydraulics to a boost smps, look at hydraulic ram pump.

--- End quote ---

You mean this ?



It is a great example of the mechanism (a) uses to move against the direction of applied force F1.
It is energy storage in this case compressed air and the equivalent of stick slip hysteresis generated by the one way valves.
At least this moves slow enough for people to see what happens while for the vehicle in case (a) you usually need a slow motion video to see the effect of energy storage and stick slip hysteresis.

PlainName:
Are animated diagrams now proof of something?

Oh, it's your animated diagram. Big difference, eh.

Nominal Animal:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on February 09, 2023, 04:24:11 pm ---What I was trying to say is that no device can move against the direction of applied force unless it uses energy storage and stick slip hysteresis.
Not only I say that but it is clearly visible in the slow motion video I made.

--- End quote ---
And the trike vehicle I made of Lego moves against the direction of applied force, without any energy storage, and no slip stick hysteresis either; the one-directional torque transfer of the worm gear ensures that.

You do realize that your single example device proves nothing except that that specific geometry cannot achieve it?
And that because my example device does achieve it, it disproves your assertion that it isn't possible?

Wait, I've asked you that before, and you sidestepped the questions then, too; just asserted something irrelevant as if that was an answer.

If one does a full mechanical analysis of my trike vehicle, they immediately see that the gearbox, the torque transfer, is what makes it possible to translate and redirect a linear force into another direction.  In sailing vehicles, the mast acts like that gearbox.  The direction change only requires something to push against, typically a static force (one that does no work).  In sailing vehicles, that is provided by the keel, so that while it slices through the fluid smoothly and with very little friction in one direction, it provides a massive static force when one tries to push it sideways.  In the trike, it is the contact friction between the driving wheels and the ground, the one preventing the wheels from slipping sideways and the vehicle rotating –– just like in a sailing vehicle.


I am immensely annoyed that you keep ignoring the trike vehicle, even though I explicitly provided you with a LeoCAD model (LeoCAD being free and available for Windows, Linux, and Mac OS), so that not only can you investigate exactly its components, you can replicate the vehicle and reproduce the results for yourself.  (I used parts from Lego Technics set 9395 from 2012 that I got as a gift from a friend –– it reminded me from the set 8846 that was my first complex Lego set I had as a kid ––, and I opened the untouched set just to build this example trike.)

I could simplify the design so that Lego Technics set 42133 and at least two axle hubs (part 55982, available from Lego pick-and-build, and from Bricklink (55982) etc.) would suffice; or the very cheap Lego Technics set 30655 (released Jan 2023, ~ 5 USD) with at least two axle hubs (like part 93593), so the cost to build a copy of the vehicle would be less than $10 USD.

(I know your response is "I don't need to build that vehicle because my own example vehicle proves it is impossible for any other vehicle to work", which is a logical fallacy, but might convince feeble minds.  Which is exactly why this is so infuriating: I'd love to help you understand, but no argument, logic, model, or explanation seems to change anything in your thinking.)

|O

electrodacus:

--- Quote from: PlainName on February 09, 2023, 05:19:37 pm ---Are animated diagrams now proof of something?

Oh, it's your animated diagram. Big difference, eh.

--- End quote ---

?  I needed to search (on google) what a RAM pump is so I included the animation for others to understand what it is if they never heard of it.
It is not just a kinematic animation it takes into account the forces involved so that it reflects how it works in real life.
I can make a correct animation for the vehicle (a) as well but it is seen very clearly in my video so even better than an animation.

electrodacus:

--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 09, 2023, 05:24:45 pm ---
--- Quote from: electrodacus on February 09, 2023, 04:24:11 pm ---What I was trying to say is that no device can move against the direction of applied force unless it uses energy storage and stick slip hysteresis.
Not only I say that but it is clearly visible in the slow motion video I made.

--- End quote ---
And the trike vehicle I made of Lego moves against the direction of applied force, without any energy storage, and no slip stick hysteresis either; the one-directional torque transfer of the worm gear ensures that.

You do realize that your single example device proves nothing except that that specific geometry cannot achieve it?
And that because my example device does achieve it, it disproves your assertion that it isn't possible?

Wait, I've asked you that before, and you sidestepped the questions then, too; just asserted something irrelevant as if that was an answer.

If one does a full mechanical analysis of my trike vehicle, they immediately see that the gearbox, the torque transfer, is what makes it possible to translate and redirect a linear force into another direction.  In sailing vehicles, the mast acts like that gearbox.  The direction change only requires something to push against, typically a static force (one that does no work).  In sailing vehicles, that is provided by the keel, so that while it slices through the fluid smoothly and with very little friction in one direction, it provides a massive static force when one tries to push it sideways.  In the trike, it is the contact friction between the driving wheels and the ground, the one preventing the wheels from slipping sideways and the vehicle rotating –– just like in a sailing vehicle.


I am immensely annoyed that you keep ignoring the trike vehicle, even though I explicitly provided you with a LeoCAD model (LeoCAD being free and available for Windows, Linux, and Mac OS), so that not only can you investigate exactly its components, you can replicate the vehicle and reproduce the results for yourself.

I could simplify the design so that Lego Technics set 42133 and at least two axle hubs (part 55982, available from Lego pick-and-build, and from Bricklink (55982) etc.) would suffice; or the very cheap Lego Technics set 30655 (released Jan 2023, ~ 5 USD) with at least two axle hubs (like part 93593), so the cost to build a copy of the vehicle would be less than $10 USD.

(I know your response is "I don't need to build that vehicle because my own example vehicle proves it is impossible for any other vehicle to work", which is a logical fallacy, but might convince feeble minds.  Which is exactly why this is so infuriating: I'd love to help you understand, but no argument, logic, model, or explanation seems to change anything in your thinking.)

|O

--- End quote ---

Where is the video of your trike working ?
Your trike is more complex than the belt driven device I demonstrate.
There is also a problem if the wire you use as input is of center even slightly as then you can take advantage of the offset to create a lateral force against which to get leverage.
Hope you understand what I mean by wire being off center and you can imagine an exaggerate large spool where the wire is even outside the vehicle frame then you will have a huge lateral force as the third point against which you can leverage.

So because I need to explain the differences introduced by your model I prefer not to discuss your trike.
Try your trike with a lower gear ratio and see how the small off center offset of the string will try to rotate your vehicle.

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