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| electrodacus:
--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 10, 2023, 05:01:14 pm ---I don't have a good camera to do this, and I don't need to be convinced about what is going on. I guess we have to involve the "slow mo guys" to make a proper video about it, but I don't think they will be interested in something like this. But Nominal Animal was right, there is no convincing you. I just did the experiment to see for myself what happens and I have seen it with my own eyes and don't buy into the energy storage belloni you are trying to sell. If you really want to proof you are correct, I challenge you to setup a verifiable experiment with measurement equipment and proof that way that there is happening what you claim there is. I don't have equipment for it so I can't do it myself. --- End quote --- But what is wrong with my slow motion video ? Please take say the 2:1 vehicle and while moving the paper as slow as you can watch from the side what happens with the system. It is a way to slow time without access to a slow motion camera. What will be a good proof for you ? I can buy two Force newton meter and show forces are equal F1 and F2 ? You can do that even without the force meters just pull on the paper and you already applied a force and you do not need to know the value of the force but you will see that unless that force is large enough for one of the wheels to slip the vehicle will not move. To disprove my theory you will need to be able to show that the vehicle can move without any wheel slip. Else it just shows that F1=F2 unless a wheel slips and of course when it starts to slip the force at the wheel starting to slip drops significantly allowing whatever stored energy is available to be converted to kinetic energy. I can also show that if I restrict the vehicle body by connecting it to ground the force F2 will be 2 * F1 assuming 2:1 gear ratio and there is no slip involved. There is no such thing as functional gear box without 3 points. No force amplification can happen with 2 points. After you stretch the belt (energy storage) and input wheel slips you have a system with 3 points as you have now another input energy source (the energy stored in the belt). To make this even slower motion you can have a generator at the input wheel a battery and a motor at the output wheel. If you connect generator wires directly to motor it can not work as motor output power can not be larger than input generator power. But if you connect the generator to battery the battery can be charged then you can connect the battery to motor to move the vehicle forward as you have now an internal energy source not just the external one so you can apply a force between the vehicle body and output wheel. |
| electrodacus:
--- Quote from: fourfathom on February 10, 2023, 05:24:01 pm --- --- Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 10, 2023, 05:01:14 pm --- I have seen it with my own eyes and don't buy into the energy storage belloni you are trying to sell. --- End quote --- What puzzles me is how this "energy storage" is even supposed to work. If there is energy to be stored, then there is energy. This energy can be accumulated and released in bursts (the stick-slip). Sure, that can happen, we see it all the time. But this energy can also be used in a continuous mode, without storage and release. The amount of energy will be unchanged (ignoring losses in both cases), and stick-slip will not increase this energy. Electronics analogy: PWM vs DC. The models work with or without stick-slip. Stick-slip does not increase the available energy. Stick-slip is an irrelevant distraction. --- End quote --- Look at example (c) and let me know if that DC-DC boost converter can work. If you can show me that circuit can boost the V2 to 2*V1 then you won the argument. |
| pcprogrammer:
--- Quote from: fourfathom on February 10, 2023, 05:24:01 pm ---What puzzles me is how this "energy storage" is even supposed to work. If there is energy to be stored, then there is energy. This energy can be accumulated and released in bursts (the stick-slip). Sure, that can happen, we see it all the time. But this energy can also be used in a continuous mode, without storage and release. The amount of energy will be unchanged (ignoring losses in both cases), and stick-slip will not increase this energy. --- End quote --- I don't know. First it was the rubber belt that was doing it, and when replaced with a fairly ridgid chain, it is the chain, and for sure, when I replace it with a bunch of sprockets or a drive shaft it will be the sprockets or the driveshaft having flexibility or what. The only energy in the experiment is what I put in to it with my hand, and if there is some erratic movement it is also because of my hand. I did make a video with my cell phone, yet it is not very good, but it does show that the 3:1 runs smoother then the 2:1. Has to do with speed I guess. |
| electrodacus:
--- Quote from: PlainName on February 10, 2023, 05:26:20 pm --- --- Quote ---I showed in this graph except you can consider the time in ms (not sure what the graph was used for is from google search) --- End quote --- Hey, that's useful. Pick a random graph of something unknown on Google and then it proves whatever you want it to prove. If only other people knew that they could solve no end of problems! --- End quote --- It is not something unknown is a graph showing the difference between force needed to overcome static friction and kinetic friction. Basically the stick slip hysteresis. Do make a google image search for "stick-slip" and you will find plenty of example relevant as without stick-slip hysteresis there will be no trigger to charge and discharge the energy. |
| electrodacus:
--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 10, 2023, 05:35:46 pm ---I don't know. First it was the rubber belt that was doing it, and when replaced with a fairly ridgid chain, it is the chain, and for sure, when I replace it with a bunch of sprockets or a drive shaft it will be the sprockets or the driveshaft having flexibility or what. The only energy in the experiment is what I put in to it with my hand, and if there is some erratic movement it is also because of my hand. I did make a video with my cell phone, yet it is not very good, but it does show that the 3:1 runs smoother then the 2:1. Has to do with speed I guess. --- End quote --- There are no materials that have zero elasticity in real world. Yes the only energy is what you put in with your hand but that energy is first stored (no vehicle motion) then when input wheel slips stored energy is converted to kinetic energy. Without this combination of storage and then discharge of the storage no vehicle can move against the applied force. The 3:1 needs to move less so it requires less energy that is why it seems smoother as you put less effort in and also the charge discharge cycles are 50% faster than for 2:1 so even harder to see the non uniform motion due to charge discharge is like it is harder to see a image flicker at 30Hz than at 20Hz |
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