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Force multiplier
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electrodacus:

--- Quote from: IanB on February 12, 2023, 07:18:46 pm ---This is clearly nonsense. If a wheel slips to release stored energy, the only thing that can happen is that the stored energy is wasted. Slipping is the enemy of energy conservation.

--- End quote ---

For a gear ratio different form 1:1 the energy is not wasted as the vehicle is able to move using that stored energy.
If the input wheel slips only then the output is able to take advantage of the energy stored in the belt.
Even when the output wheel slips there is still work done as the vehicle will be accelerated in the same direction as the belt and yes there is a lot of wasted energy because it is a locked gear.


--- Quote from: IanB on February 12, 2023, 07:18:46 pm ---You keep bringing up this video but nobody responds because it clearly does not do what you say it does. Your comments about it are delusional.

--- End quote ---

OK then you explain what you see in that video.

If you see the vehicle stationary the treadmill moves and the input rotates will this not mean that there is power available at the input and that power integrated over time is energy that it is stored ?  It is clear that belt is elastic and you need to apply a force to stretch it and since it is rubber it is elastic deformation not plastic deformation.
If the vehicle will have started to move and the belt remained stretched then yes there will be no energy discharge but it can be seen in the video that belt relaxes as the vehicle accelerates.

What if the gear ratio is 1:1. Why is the vehicle not moving and locked If this was not a lock gear configuration the gear ratio will not be relevant. It should work as 1:1, 1.5:1, 2:1 or 4:1
For the vehicle to move you need wheel slip else no movement no matter the gear ratio.
The kinematic only will show this vehicle has wheels rotate no matter the gear ratio but that can not predict what happens in reality as it ignores the forces acting on the vehicle.  And net force is always zero unless there is slip.
IanB:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on February 12, 2023, 10:18:06 pm ---The kinematic only will show this vehicle has wheels rotate no matter the gear ratio
--- End quote ---

But it doesn't show that, does it?

By saying this, you are only showing you are not able to read or understand the analysis provided by Nominal Animal, and if you are not able to read or comprehend such an analysis, you are not able or qualified to make any claims about anything under discussion.

This is why everyone thinks you are either a troll or a fool.

Under such circumstances there is no point trying to debate anything you say.
PlainName:
Pardon me for asking the obvious, but why are you fixated on this slip business? Suppose we agree that you need this slip/release (energy storage in your parlance), you've then agree that using this the vehicle will go the other way to which the treadmill is moving. That's all that this is about - the slipping stuff is just something you've brought in to divert from the actual issue of the object moving towards the direction of the supplied force.

And, in fact, if we did accept this, you've even shown us a graph that, in your parlance, proves that it's a continuous process. That is, it will keep going as long as the treadmill rotates. So in the end you've agreed that even if it does need the energy storage it still works as expected over time because the store/release averages out yet the vehicle still move overall in the right direction.

The only way your stick/slip diversion could be meaningful (to the experiment rather than just you) is if the vehicle actually moved back and forth. But even your video shows that it doesn't - at worst, with your broken model that fakes stick/slip, it only halts before moving on again. The average of that is clearly a considerable movement in the right direction.

I hope you will take a few minutes to consider this properly, because I need a bit of time to get in the popcorn supplies.
electrodacus:

--- Quote from: PlainName on February 12, 2023, 10:32:23 pm ---Pardon me for asking the obvious, but why are you fixated on this slip business? Suppose we agree that you need this slip/release (energy storage in your parlance), you've then agree that using this the vehicle will go the other way to which the treadmill is moving. That's all that this is about - the slipping stuff is just something you've brought in to divert from the actual issue of the object moving towards the direction of the supplied force.

And, in fact, if we did accept this, you've even shown us a graph that, in your parlance, proves that it's a continuous process. That is, it will keep going as long as the treadmill rotates. So in the end you've agreed that even if it does need the energy storage it still works as expected over time because the store/release averages out yet the vehicle still move overall in the right direction.

The only way your stick/slip diversion could be meaningful (to the experiment rather than just you) is if the vehicle actually moved back and forth. But even your video shows that it doesn't - at worst, with your broken model that fakes stick/slip, it only halts before moving on again. The average of that is clearly a considerable movement in the right direction.

I hope you will take a few minutes to consider this properly, because I need a bit of time to get in the popcorn supplies.

--- End quote ---

It is impossible for a unpowered vehicle like vehicle (a) witch is basically a gearbox with floating body to move in the opposite direction of applied force unless as it is the case energy storage and stick slip hysteresis are involved.

It will be wrong to claim that slip is not required (mandatory) in order for this vehicle in case (a) to move in any direction.

And yes it will move as long as the treadmill moves but it will not be a perfectly continues motion. The average speed will be constant but there is variation in acceleration to maintain an average speed.  How large is the variation will depend on the internal friction losses as that leads to vehicle slowing down and then a charge discharge cycle will accelerate the vehicle back above average speed.

At higher speed the vehicle will never completely stop as shown in that video it will only slow down as the mass of the vehicle acts as a smoothing capacitor in an electrical circuit so there will still be a ripple as vehicle accelerates (due to stored energy) and decelerates (due to friction losses).

That is the big problem that even with the wrong model you get a similar result and will require accurate measurement to show that result is incorrect with your model.

Once I'm able to prove that energy storage and stick slip hysteresis is what really happens (what will fully convince you that this is correct?) then I can demonstrate that any wind powered vehicle driving directly upwind powered by the wind requires energy storage in order to do so.

The other one directly downwind will require an even more complex explanation so I need to have this simpler one done first.
While the direct upwind can travel indefinitely the direct downwind can only travel faster than wind for a limited amount of time and to recharge it will need to drop below wind speed.
PlainName:

--- Quote ---And yes it will move as long as the treadmill moves but it will not be a perfectly continues motion.
--- End quote ---

For the purpose of the actual problem, why does it need to be a 'perfectly continues motion'? So long as overall it is in the right direction surely that's all that counts.
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