Author Topic: Force multiplier  (Read 33945 times)

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Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #300 on: February 13, 2023, 04:09:58 pm »
Edit: Nevermind about the experiment as it will not show the amount of slip since the slip is powered by the treadmill is just extra energy that is lost and that is harder to measure. 
If the charge circle makes say 1 degree rotation (vehicle is not moving) then during discharge there is a slip of exact same amount 1 degree so it is not contributing to the distance traveled just to extra losses due to friction.


Just answer the problem I posted in the earlier comment  and you will be hopefully able to realize that wheels can not rotate unless there is both energy storage and stick slip hysteresis. Unless you have an alternate explanation or you think the result of such an experiment will be different than what I think then we can test that.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2023, 04:59:50 pm by electrodacus »
 

Offline cbutlera

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #301 on: February 13, 2023, 07:49:14 pm »
Edit: Nevermind about the experiment as it will not show the amount of slip since the slip is powered by the treadmill is just extra energy that is lost and that is harder to measure. 
If the charge circle makes say 1 degree rotation (vehicle is not moving) then during discharge there is a slip of exact same amount 1 degree so it is not contributing to the distance traveled just to extra losses due to friction.
...

Dammit, like a moth to a flame, I just can’t resist.

I can see why you had to scotch that experiment.  You accidentally made a testable prediction.

Okay, so now, if I have got this right, during the stick phase at least one of the wheels is slipping.  Then during the slip phase, the wheel(s) that slipped, slip back to the same position relative to the ground/treadmill from which they started.  The result being that there will be no net accumulated slip at either wheel that could be revealed by distance markers on the wheels and ground/treadmill.

Keep going.  All you need to do now is to make these equal and opposite slips small enough to be accommodated by tyre flexure instead of real slips.
 

Online PlainName

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #302 on: February 13, 2023, 08:04:45 pm »
Edit: Nevermind about the experiment as it will not show the amount of slip since the slip is powered by the treadmill is just extra energy that is lost and that is harder to measure. 
If the charge circle makes say 1 degree rotation (vehicle is not moving) then during discharge there is a slip of exact same amount 1 degree so it is not contributing to the distance traveled just to extra losses due to friction.


Just answer the problem I posted in the earlier comment  and you will be hopefully able to realize that wheels can not rotate unless there is both energy storage and stick slip hysteresis. Unless you have an alternate explanation or you think the result of such an experiment will be different than what I think then we can test that.

Again, why does it matter? Both vehicles move to the right when the paper (treadmill) moves to the left. That's all that matters - they aren't going to suddenly backtrack all the way and then continue to the left, are they? Indeed, when the paper stops moving nothing happens at all. If there were any energy storage, where did it go?

So your prediction and contention that they cannot move to the right (due to whatever magical thing) is obviously wrong, isn't it?
 

Online PlainName

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #303 on: February 13, 2023, 08:06:06 pm »
Quote
Dammit, like a moth to a flame, I just can’t resist.

Yes, I'm fascinated by how he manages to survive.
 

Online IanB

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #304 on: February 13, 2023, 08:13:11 pm »
He is on a mission to prove to the world that his ideas are correct. He is doomed never to succeed, since his ideas are wrong, and therefore they will never be accepted.

Like Sisyphus, his hubris knows no bounds:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #305 on: February 13, 2023, 08:17:45 pm »
The only thing he's on a mission to do is waste people's time, and/or generate traffic to his website. He's either a troll or a fool, either way it is totally pointless to engage. You'd have better luck convincing a rock that it is wrong.
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #306 on: February 13, 2023, 08:24:22 pm »
Again, why does it matter? Both vehicles move to the right when the paper (treadmill) moves to the left. That's all that matters - they aren't going to suddenly backtrack all the way and then continue to the left, are they? Indeed, when the paper stops moving nothing happens at all. If there were any energy storage, where did it go?

So your prediction and contention that they cannot move to the right (due to whatever magical thing) is obviously wrong, isn't it?

It matters to understand why it moves to the right to be able to make almost any prediction about the way the mechanism moves and how much energy it needs to do so.

Why are you not answering the problem with 4 possible answers? If you think none of those is correct then please add the correct one.
Until you make a prediction based on your model of this should work I can not show you the proof to the contrary.
There is nothing any of you said other than Kinematics and some force amplification.
None of this can be used to correctly answer correctly my last question so it may be the key to understand what I'm unsuccessfully trying to explain.

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #307 on: February 13, 2023, 08:28:06 pm »
The only thing he's on a mission to do is waste people's time, and/or generate traffic to his website. He's either a troll or a fool, either way it is totally pointless to engage. You'd have better luck convincing a rock that it is wrong.

Question if for anyone reading this not limited to James.
Solve the problem below and if you select the correct answer you will basically admit that my explanation of how this mechanism works is correct or if you answer wrong I can demonstrate that is wrong.


Vehicle in case (a) has the output wheel (left wheel) on a slippery surface say ice while input wheel (right wheel) has excellent grip on the treadmill.
Vehicle start as stationary and the treadmill is turned ON

Question is what will happen with the vehicle ?

a) Will wheels just spin with vehicle not going anywhere.
b) Will wheels spin and vehicle will also be accelerated to the left.
c) Will wheels spin and vehicle will be accelerated to the right.
d) Will wheels not spin and vehicle be accelerated to the left.

Explain also why will wheel's spin or not speed depending on the prediction you made.

Online PlainName

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #308 on: February 13, 2023, 08:38:14 pm »
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Why are you not answering the problem with 4 possible answers?

Forgotten what the questions relate to, and frankly can't be arsed to waste any time or effort explaining when you'll just move the goalposts yet again.

How about you deal with the proofs you've been ignoring? NomAm put a lot of effort into not only showing you how and why, but even detailing how you can do it yourself as well. To what effect? You've just posted your irrelevant questions and demand answers to them.

So, no. Before your can expect answers to your questions, you can start by dealing with this very good video, that someone has spent time and effort entirely on your behalf and to your whims. That is showing exactly what you originally said couldn't happen. There is no stretch, slip, nothing. It works exactly as everyone else said it would, and precisely according to the formulae that NomAm kindly worked out and posted. There couldn't be better proof that you are wrong, but you ignore it anyway and make nonsensical demands.
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #309 on: February 13, 2023, 08:47:55 pm »
Quote
Why are you not answering the problem with 4 possible answers?

Forgotten what the questions relate to, and frankly can't be arsed to waste any time or effort explaining when you'll just move the goalposts yet again.

How about you deal with the proofs you've been ignoring? NomAm put a lot of effort into not only showing you how and why, but even detailing how you can do it yourself as well. To what effect? You've just posted your irrelevant questions and demand answers to them.

So, no. Before your can expect answers to your questions, you can start by dealing with this very good video, that someone has spent time and effort entirely on your behalf and to your whims. That is showing exactly what you originally said couldn't happen. There is no stretch, slip, nothing. It works exactly as everyone else said it would, and precisely according to the formulae that NomAm kindly worked out and posted. There couldn't be better proof that you are wrong, but you ignore it anyway and make nonsensical demands.


The video does not show anything different from what my theory predicts but it is also no useful in proving my theory as both the frame rate and angle at which it is filmed prevents showing the charge discharge cycles. Those can be see way better in my videos.

I do not think my problem takes long to answer if you claim you know how the vehicle works and all you need to do is say a letter corresponding to the correct answer and worst case if none of those 4 are the correct answer (not sure what other option can there be) then you add a short phrase as the correct answer.

My guess is that you do not know how to answer that thus try and avoid it.

Offline cbutlera

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #310 on: February 13, 2023, 08:56:10 pm »
I can see why you had to scotch that experiment.  You accidentally made a testable prediction.

Okay, so now, if I have got this right, during the stick phase at least one of the wheels is slipping.  Then during the slip phase, the wheel(s) that slipped, slip back to the same position relative to the ground/treadmill from which they started.  The result being that there will be no net accumulated slip at either wheel that could be revealed by distance markers on the wheels and ground/treadmill.

Keep going.  All you need to do now is to make these equal and opposite slips small enough to be accommodated by tyre flexure instead of real slips.

...
My guess is that you do not know how to answer that thus try and avoid it.
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #311 on: February 13, 2023, 09:00:57 pm »
I can see why you had to scotch that experiment.  You accidentally made a testable prediction.

Okay, so now, if I have got this right, during the stick phase at least one of the wheels is slipping.  Then during the slip phase, the wheel(s) that slipped, slip back to the same position relative to the ground/treadmill from which they started.  The result being that there will be no net accumulated slip at either wheel that could be revealed by distance markers on the wheels and ground/treadmill.

Keep going.  All you need to do now is to make these equal and opposite slips small enough to be accommodated by tyre flexure instead of real slips.


Yes I did made a prediction and that is that the amount wheel moves clockwise to charge is equal with the amount it slips while rotating in the other direction.
So it can be visualized with high speed camera but there no simpler test to show the slip.

But please answer my latest question since I do not think any of your vaguely defined theories can be used.

Offline cbutlera

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #312 on: February 13, 2023, 09:38:12 pm »
Yes I did made a prediction and that is that the amount wheel moves clockwise to charge is equal with the amount it slips while rotating in the other direction.
So it can be visualized with high speed camera but there no simpler test to show the slip.

Okay, thanks for confirming what I said.

So again, if I have this right, during the stick phase, the vehicle remains stationary, and the input wheel slips against the direction of the treadmill.  During the slip phase, the vehicle moves forwards, the output wheel turns without slipping, and the input wheel slips with the direction of the treadmill, catching up to the point where it would have been had it not slipped.

Is this correct?

Quote
But please answer my latest question since I do not think any of your vaguely defined theories can be used.

What vaguely defined theories would those be?

I thought that you were supposed to be explaining your hypothesis to us.  This isn’t a guessing game, we get to ask the questions.  The rest of us are not pushing our own novel hypotheses, we already accept the explanation and experimental results published by the team that designed and built Blackbird, and broke two world records with it.
 

Online PlainName

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #313 on: February 13, 2023, 09:45:55 pm »
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prevents showing the charge discharge cycles

Because there are none.

Quote
I do not think my problem takes long to answer if you claim you know how the vehicle works

You've been told and shown how it works. All you can do is deflect by coming up with another 'if you just answer the question'.
Not my problem if you can't handle the reality.
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #314 on: February 13, 2023, 11:13:49 pm »
So again, if I have this right, during the stick phase, the vehicle remains stationary, and the input wheel slips against the direction of the treadmill.  During the slip phase, the vehicle moves forwards, the output wheel turns without slipping, and the input wheel slips with the direction of the treadmill, catching up to the point where it would have been had it not slipped.

Is this correct?

Maybe it was a typo but during the stick phase the input wheel will not slip will rotate and store elastic energy.
As soon as the front wheel slips the vehicle starts to move powered by that stored energy so it converts that elastic stored energy into kinetic energy and some is lost as heat due to slip.
Then that kinetic energy decreases as it is used up by the frictional losses thus as vehicle slows down the elastic energy is again charged until the moment the front wheel slips and so that elastic energy is in part lost to friction due to slip and the rest ends up as kinetic energy witch then power the other frictional losses. 


What vaguely defined theories would those be?

I thought that you were supposed to be explaining your hypothesis to us.  This isn’t a guessing game, we get to ask the questions.  The rest of us are not pushing our own novel hypotheses, we already accept the explanation and experimental results published by the team that designed and built Blackbird, and broke two world records with it.

Everyone comes with some different explanations.
Most say that net force is not zero because the mechanism works as a gearbox so it directly converts the input F1 to an F2 larger by say 2x if the gear ratio is 2:1
Then others seems to think you do not even need forces to describe how vehicle works (that will be worse than first explanation even if both are wrong).

Unless you know the net force and direction you can not predict how vehicle will move and in this particular case all you need is to vary the grip or weight distribution and you get movement in the opposite direction and at different speed.

The first most popular explanation of force multiplication is not true as you can not do that with only two points of contact.Without a third leverage point you can not do force multiplication.
And the kinematic one can not describe the system as it takes no forces in to account.

My last problem can disprove both of this theories if understood and answered correctly as none of this can make the correct prediction.

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #315 on: February 13, 2023, 11:16:25 pm »
Because there are none.

You've been told and shown how it works. All you can do is deflect by coming up with another 'if you just answer the question'.
Not my problem if you can't handle the reality.

The problem is a real one.
So why can you not answer a problem that takes less to answer than took you to post this last comment?

Online IanB

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #316 on: February 13, 2023, 11:32:52 pm »
So why can you not answer a problem that takes less to answer than took you to post this last comment?

Because it's not our problem and we don't care?

This game is boring now, and whatever entertainment it ever provided has been exhausted.

Responding is not productive.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #317 on: February 13, 2023, 11:35:39 pm »
Responding is not productive.

How this has taken this long for anyone to figure out I really don't understand.
 

Online PlainName

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #318 on: February 13, 2023, 11:51:38 pm »
Quote
Unless you know the net force and direction you can not predict how vehicle will move

And yet you pretend to do so.
 

Online PlainName

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #319 on: February 13, 2023, 11:53:11 pm »
Responding is not productive.

How this has taken this long for anyone to figure out I really don't understand.

It's this or reading about strikes and Boris or Truss making a comeback. Difficult choice.
 

Offline HuronKing

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #320 on: February 14, 2023, 12:01:09 am »
Responding is not productive.

How this has taken this long for anyone to figure out I really don't understand.

Beats me but its doubly hilarious now that I know for a fact that the OP had the opportunity to converse directly with the inventors of the wind device that has driven the OP to insanity and they eventually told him to f*ck off.

And now he's here... God knows why.  :-DD

PS
There is of course a fascination in picking apart pseudoscience which is one of the reasons I enjoy Donald Simanek's website so much:

https://dsimanek.vialattea.net/museum/unwork.htm
« Last Edit: February 14, 2023, 12:04:12 am by HuronKing »
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #321 on: February 14, 2023, 12:20:18 am »
Beats me but its doubly hilarious now that I know for a fact that the OP had the opportunity to converse directly with the inventors of the wind device that has driven the OP to insanity and they eventually told him to f*ck off.

And now he's here... God knows why.  :-DD

The inventor is of course clueless as to how his machine works else he will never made it as it makes no sense.
 
He thinks his vehicle is powered directly by wind power no energy storage involved so of course he will predict that he can travel at 2x or 3x the wind speed directly downwind and never slow down.
He never tested if his prediction works but he is sure it is.

The truth is that his machine blackbird and also the treadmill model Derek from Veritasium showed use pressure differential energy storage to be able to exceed wind speed directly downwind and that also means that once it gets to peak speed it will not stay at that speed but start to slow down as all stored energy is used up and will slow down to below wind speed where it can recharge and repeat the same again.

Not only that but Derek invented math to look like it will work but is a complete fail if you test that invented equation in any other case than when vehicle is above wind speed.

But this case (a) is much simpler and it seems it is still got wrong despite me having the proof that energy storage is used.

If you ask what the proof is then just answer that last question that everyone seems to be avoiding now.

Offline HuronKing

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #322 on: February 14, 2023, 12:32:45 am »
Beats me but its doubly hilarious now that I know for a fact that the OP had the opportunity to converse directly with the inventors of the wind device that has driven the OP to insanity and they eventually told him to f*ck off.

And now he's here... God knows why.  :-DD

The inventor is of course clueless as to how his machine works else he will never made it as it makes no sense.
 

 :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD

Quote
He thinks his vehicle is powered directly by wind power no energy storage involved so of course he will predict that he can travel at 2x or 3x the wind speed directly downwind and never slow down.
He never tested if his prediction works but he is sure it is.

You're a goddamn liar - and this is why spork/Rick Cavallaro told you to f*ck off.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #323 on: February 14, 2023, 12:36:55 am »
I wonder how much room there is for further optimization to increase performance. Perhaps a flexible driveshaft to optimize the thrust angle would offset the mechanical losses added by the shaft? Variable pitch prop? The whole vehicle is an interesting concept that at a glance is not intuitive, but obviously it has been proven to work and after seeing it work the description of how it works does make sense.
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #324 on: February 14, 2023, 12:42:51 am »
You're a goddamn liar - and this is why spork/Rick Cavallaro told you to f*ck off.

Lying about what ?

Every time the vehicle body is touched in that video the energy storage is charged (no longer a floating body).
As long as the vehicle is restricted with hand or any other object touching the body it is nothing more than a treadmill powered fan.

If you take a video of that vehicle after you release from hand and measure in the video the acceleration rate you will see that acceleration rate drops as the energy storage is used up.
That means vehicle will get to a peak speed (point where stored energy can no longer accelerate the vehicle as pressure differential is converted in to vehicle kinetic energy) and then all friction losses will be powered by that stored kinetic energy meaning kinetic energy drops thus vehicle speed drops.

But yes if you make incomplete tests do no measurements you can come up with wrong conclusions about what happens.
So that video is not a proof of anything other than a majority of people not understand basic physics like Newton's 3'rd law and energy conservation.


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