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Offline cbutlera

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #75 on: February 07, 2023, 07:22:31 pm »

Yes, lets assume that the red box is fixed to the ground and unable to move.

So are you saying that the system will reach a static equilibrium with F1 = F2 = X and with the cylinder block remaining stationary?

Yes that is exactly what I'm saying.

If the cylinder block remains stationary, then it is behaving exactly as it would if were attached rigidly to the ground.  There appears to be no consequence to detaching from the ground.  So by what mechanism can whether or not the cylinder block is attached to the ground alter F2?
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #76 on: February 07, 2023, 07:42:21 pm »

If the cylinder block remains stationary, then it is behaving exactly as it would if were attached rigidly to the ground.  There appears to be no consequence to detaching from the ground.  So by what mechanism can whether or not the cylinder block is attached to the ground alter F2?

As it is in diagram (b) cylinder block floating F2 is a consequence of F1 equal and opposite.  Just imagine redbox had no mass and no friction with ground then you can not have an F2 and thus you can also not have an F1 and the displacement will be the same as they will move the same amount.

But if the cylinder body is connected to ground then F1 piston can move relative to the cylinder case and the other piston F2 will move say half the distance due to larger say double section area.
F2 will push against F1 with say force X but also against the cylinder body with force X so F2 = 2X but this is only possible if cylinder body is connected to ground so there is something to push against.
If cylinder body is floating everything will move as one object the small piston the large one and the cylinder case will travel the same distance and so F2 will just be equal and opposite to F1.

Offline nctnico

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #77 on: February 07, 2023, 07:50:31 pm »
I forget who first described having done it in that other thread, but they tried basically the same thing with a heavy spool of soldering wire, with the wire coming off the spool at the bottom.  If the spool has sufficient traction (doesn't slip), pulling on the wire causes the spool to roll faster towards you than you pull the wire, re-spooling the wire back onto the spool!  Funky, eh?  But quite expected, physically speaking.
Basic physics  8) You can also have very interesting discussions with car enthousiasts that keep claiming torque is the main engine parameter. You can't make them understand that power is what makes a car go forward.  Even when you show this with simple math |O
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline cbutlera

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #78 on: February 07, 2023, 07:57:10 pm »

If the cylinder block remains stationary, then it is behaving exactly as it would if were attached rigidly to the ground.  There appears to be no consequence to detaching from the ground.  So by what mechanism can whether or not the cylinder block is attached to the ground alter F2?

As it is in diagram (b) cylinder block floating F2 is a consequence of F1 equal and opposite.  Just imagine redbox had no mass and no friction with ground then you can not have an F2 and thus you can also not have an F1 and the displacement will be the same as they will move the same amount.

But if the cylinder body is connected to ground then F1 piston can move relative to the cylinder case and the other piston F2 will move say half the distance due to larger say double section area.
F2 will push against F1 with say force X but also against the cylinder body with force X so F2 = 2X but this is only possible if cylinder body is connected to ground so there is something to push against.
If cylinder body is floating everything will move as one object the small piston the large one and the cylinder case will travel the same distance and so F2 will just be equal and opposite to F1.

In the case where the cylinder block is rigidly attached to the ground and the system has reached a static equilibrium, do you agree with the following?

If the fluid pressure (force per unit area) is P, and the working surface area of the F1 piston is A1, then

F1 = P * A1

Similarly, if the working surface area of the F2 piston is A2, then

F2 = P * A2

Therefore F2 = F1 * A2 / A1
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #79 on: February 07, 2023, 08:29:40 pm »

In the case where the cylinder block is rigidly attached to the ground and the system has reached a static equilibrium, do you agree with the following?

If the fluid pressure (force per unit area) is P, and the working surface area of the F1 piston is A1, then

F1 = P * A1

Similarly, if the working surface area of the F2 piston is A2, then

F2 = P * A2

Therefore F2 = F1 * A2 / A1

Yes that is correct for cylinder block attached to the ground.

If cylinder is not attached to ground the cylinder itself will move to the right and assuming cylinder has no mass F2 = F1 but if cylinder has some mass then F2 = F1 + m *a thus no longer function as a force multiplier.
So maybe (b) is not a great example as if piston F1 moves to much the cylinder will fall off (as it is drawn). If there is say a stop on the wide part so that large piston can not fall off the cylinder then cylinder will accelerate to that end then cylinder will push against the large piston F2 and so when at that point F2 = F1 as there is no longer than m*a factor.
In any case at no point unless by coincidence F2 ≠ F1 * A2/A1 instead is F2 = F1 + m*a until the stop at the end then F2 = F1   
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 08:31:43 pm by electrodacus »
 

Offline cbutlera

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #80 on: February 07, 2023, 08:46:02 pm »
Yes that is correct for cylinder block attached to the ground.

If cylinder is not attached to ground the cylinder itself will move to the right and assuming cylinder has no mass F2 = F1 but if cylinder has some mass then F2 = F1 + m *a thus no longer function as a force multiplier.
So maybe (b) is not a great example as if piston F1 moves to much the cylinder will fall off (as it is drawn). If there is say a stop on the wide part so that large piston can not fall off the cylinder then cylinder will accelerate to that end then cylinder will push against the large piston F2 and so when at that point F2 = F1 as there is no longer than m*a factor.
In any case at no point unless by coincidence F2 ≠ F1 * A2/A1 instead is F2 = F1 + m*a until the stop at the end then F2 = F1

So to sum up.  You now agree that the cylinder block will accelerate to the right if it is not attached to the ground. You also agree that during the acceleration F1 will not be equal to F2.  As a consequence, do you also now agree that F1 and F2 cannot be a Newton’s third law force pair, because such a pair must necessarily be equal and opposite under all circumstances?
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2023, 09:04:25 pm »

So to sum up.  You now agree that the cylinder block will accelerate to the right if it is not attached to the ground. You also agree that during the acceleration F1 will not be equal to F2.  As a consequence, do you also now agree that F1 and F2 cannot be a Newton’s third law force pair, because such a pair must necessarily be equal and opposite under all circumstances?

Yes but that will be true in any acceleration frame as Newton's 2'nd law is also involved on top of the 3'rd.

So to sum up for case (b) you have
F2 = F1 * A2/A1  when cylinder body is attached to ground thus force amplification or force multiplier.

F2 = F1 + m*a  when cylinder is floating and in an accelerating reference frame.
F2 = F1             when cylinder is floating but not moving due to a limit stop so cylinder will not fall off.


For case (a) is similar if you attached the vehicle/gearbox body to ground you just have D2/D1 as the gear ratio.
If body is floating then you have F2 = F1 unless left wheel slips the as long as it accelerates it will still be F2 = F1 * m*a but once it stops accelerating say moves at constant speed is F2 = F1 again.
And there is the more complex case where right wheel (input wheel) slips then there is energy storage and over that period F2 = F1 but right wheel rotates meaning energy is stored then the stored energy is converted to vehicle kinetic energy so again Newton's 2'nd law gets involved.

Do you agree with all this ?

Offline cbutlera

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2023, 09:22:33 pm »

So to sum up.  You now agree that the cylinder block will accelerate to the right if it is not attached to the ground. You also agree that during the acceleration F1 will not be equal to F2.  As a consequence, do you also now agree that F1 and F2 cannot be a Newton’s third law force pair, because such a pair must necessarily be equal and opposite under all circumstances?

Yes but that will be true in any acceleration frame as Newton's 2'nd law is also involved on top of the 3'rd.

So to sum up for case (b) you have
F2 = F1 * A2/A1  when cylinder body is attached to ground thus force amplification or force multiplier.

F2 = F1 + m*a  when cylinder is floating and in an accelerating reference frame.
F2 = F1             when cylinder is floating but not moving due to a limit stop so cylinder will not fall off.


For case (a) is similar if you attached the vehicle/gearbox body to ground you just have D2/D1 as the gear ratio.
If body is floating then you have F2 = F1 unless left wheel slips the as long as it accelerates it will still be F2 = F1 * m*a but once it stops accelerating say moves at constant speed is F2 = F1 again.
And there is the more complex case where right wheel (input wheel) slips then there is energy storage and over that period F2 = F1 but right wheel rotates meaning energy is stored then the stored energy is converted to vehicle kinetic energy so again Newton's 2'nd law gets involved.

Do you agree with all this ?

So now that you have agreed that the hidden hand of Newton’s third law does not reach out and restrain the cylinder block in your example b), you can apply the same reasoning to example a).

In the past you have been arguing that the wheels will slip because Newton’s third law is preventing the vehicle from accelerating.  If you now accept that this hidden hand does not intervene in example b), why do you think it will still reach out and restrain the vehicle in example a)? As you seem to have hinted at above, the vehicle will accelerate with no slip required.  (Assuming that the treadmill itself accelerates steadily from a stationary start at time t = 0)
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #83 on: February 07, 2023, 10:01:47 pm »

So now that you have agreed that the hidden hand of Newton’s third law does not reach out and restrain the cylinder block in your example b), you can apply the same reasoning to example a).

In the past you have been arguing that the wheels will slip because Newton’s third law is preventing the vehicle from accelerating.  If you now accept that this hidden hand does not intervene in example b), why do you think it will still reach out and restrain the vehicle in example a)? As you seem to have hinted at above, the vehicle will accelerate with no slip required.  (Assuming that the treadmill itself accelerates steadily from a stationary start at time t = 0)

Did you miss the Newton's 3'rd law ? It is present in all non accelerating frames and of course when whe are in an accelerating frame the 2'nd law also applies.
Have you missed the fact that in none of the case where body is floating there is no force multiplication ?
Yes the vehicle at (a) in order to move will require one of the wheels to slip as it is a locked gearbox.
The same is true in b) as neither the piston pushed by F1 nor the one pushed by F2 moves unless fluid is compressible (not normally the case). But if it is compressible it is no different from vehicle (a) where belt is elastic and so then piston F1 will move as energy is stored same as wheel on the right moves storing energy.
Unless one of the wheels slips vehicle (a) will not move. It is your choice if back wheel on the left slips or the one on the right and depending on that we can discuss what the forces are but I already mentioned what they are multiple times.


Edit: Also I asked but you did not answered if you agree with the equations I wrote.

Only for the case of body connected to ground you can have force multiplication F2 = F1 * A2/A1
When there is no force multiplication you will have either F2=F1 in non accelerating frame or F2 = F1 + m*a last part being the second law which deals with acceleration frames. None of this is force multiplication.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 10:36:03 pm by electrodacus »
 

Online IanB

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #84 on: February 07, 2023, 10:23:55 pm »
Yes the vehicle at (a) in order to move will require one of the wheels to slip as it is a locked gearbox.
There is no locked gearbox.

Quote
The same is true in b) as neither the piston pushed by F1 nor the one pushed by F2 moves unless fluid is compressible (not normally the case). But if it is compressible it is no different from vehicle (a) where belt is elastic and so then piston F1 will move as energy is stored same as wheel on the right moves storing energy.
No one ever said the fluid was compressible. In all the discussion above the results are true for an ideal incompressible fluid.

In case (b) it is impossible to apply a force F1 or F2 because as soon as you try the system will move to cancel out the force. So F1 and F2 are always exactly zero (or you have to introduce a non-ideal F = ma term). This situation is just the same as case (a) where F1 and F2 are also zero.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 10:27:31 pm by IanB »
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #85 on: February 07, 2023, 10:26:42 pm »

There is no locked gearbox.


Prove that.
Show that vehicle moving in that configuration without any wheel slip.
It is just impossible for that vehicle to move without either the input or output wheel's to slip.

I already proved that is the case in my videos with full explanation of what happens.

The equation's also show what happens F2=F1 means displacement is also equal and opposite thus no movement.
If body is connected to ground of course it will also not move but you can have force multiplication F2 = F1 * A2/A1
So with a gear ratio of 2:1 you will have F2 = 2 * F1 but since P out can not be more than P in that means displacement at F2 is half that at F1 thus vehicle body is not moving (it will be impossible anyway as it is connected to ground).
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 10:32:31 pm by electrodacus »
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #86 on: February 07, 2023, 10:43:29 pm »
Quote
Show that vehicle moving in that configuration without any wheel slip.

A thought experiment:

Instead of the belt driving the right wheel, let's think what happens if the belt is freewheeling and we drive the left wheel. That is, we move the vehicle to the right. The left block is fixed so the left wheel turns clockwise. The connecting belt or chain causes the right wheel to also turn clockwise but at a faster speed because of the gearing. The freewheeling horizontal belt then whizzes past, right to left, because of the right wheel turning.

Apart from the Hand of God moving the vehicle to the right, what's wrong with that?
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #87 on: February 07, 2023, 10:50:56 pm »
Quote
Show that vehicle moving in that configuration without any wheel slip.

A thought experiment:

Instead of the belt driving the right wheel, let's think what happens if the belt is freewheeling and we drive the left wheel. That is, we move the vehicle to the right. The left block is fixed so the left wheel turns clockwise. The connecting belt or chain causes the right wheel to also turn clockwise but at a faster speed because of the gearing. The freewheeling horizontal belt then whizzes past, right to left, because of the right wheel turning.

Apart from the Hand of God moving the vehicle to the right, what's wrong with that?

Not quite sure in what direction it will freewheel ?
And of course the "Hand of God" is not allowed and that is involved in the animation someone showed in the past.
F1 should be the only input and not some invisible force pushing the vehicle body. I guess that is what you imagine when you think about the freewheel.

Offline PlainName

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #88 on: February 07, 2023, 11:33:54 pm »
It's a thought experiment. Instead of Hand of God, you can stand there and push it if you want.

So, there is no driving or braking on the horizontal belt. It is free to move in either direction. If you move the vehicle to the right, won't the belt be turned to the left?

Forget F1 and all that. It is a simple setup. Push the vehicle to the right, the left wheel turns, the right wheel turns, the belt moves. Is that not the case?

 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #89 on: February 07, 2023, 11:48:49 pm »
Quote
Not quite sure in what direction it will freewheel ?

OK, let's make it simple. Just say at which point you disagree (and why):

1. You, HoG or something moved the body to the right.

2. The left wheel rotates clockwise.

3. The right wheel rotates clockwise.

4. The right wheel rotates faster than the left wheel.

5. The rotating right wheel pushes the horizontal belt to the left.

There. If you say where you get lost then we know where to concentrate on clearing it up.
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2023, 11:49:13 pm »
It's a thought experiment. Instead of Hand of God, you can stand there and push it if you want.

So, there is no driving or braking on the horizontal belt. It is free to move in either direction. If you move the vehicle to the right, won't the belt be turned to the left?

Forget F1 and all that. It is a simple setup. Push the vehicle to the right, the left wheel turns, the right wheel turns, the belt moves. Is that not the case?

What will be the point of such an experiment ?
If you push the vehicle to the right all wheels and the belt will rotate clockwise so not quite sure what "belt be turned to the left means to you".

Edit: It is confusing to refer to the treadmill as belt since there is a belt connecting the two wheels of the vehicle.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2023, 12:00:38 am by electrodacus »
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2023, 11:55:05 pm »
OK, let's make it simple. Just say at which point you disagree (and why):

1. You, HoG or something moved the body to the right.

2. The left wheel rotates clockwise.

3. The right wheel rotates clockwise.

4. The right wheel rotates faster than the left wheel.

5. The rotating right wheel pushes the horizontal belt to the left.

There. If you say where you get lost then we know where to concentrate on clearing it up.

Well I will disagree with first point as pushing the vehicle body has nothing to do with this discussion where vehicle is supposedly powered by the treadmill and that is only in contact with a point on the input wheel pushing with the force F1.

So now the treadmill is unpowered free to move and you push the vehicle body to the right. Of course since you apply a force to the right to the vehicle body the vehicle body will move in that direction.
But it has basically nothing to do with the original problem where the only applied force is to the left (not to the right) and it is applied at the input wheel.
No vehicle can move in the opposite direction of applied force without using energy storage.

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #92 on: February 08, 2023, 12:58:48 am »
This is an aside, intended for those who are interested in how one can and actually should investigate such systems:



The first analysis should be a kinematic one, examining the motion of the system components without considering the forces or causes of the operation.

Let's consider a vehicle that in some specific time interval moves right by \$x\$ with respect to the ground.  The large wheel rotates clockwise by \$\varphi = x / R\$ radians, when there is no slippage, because the surface of the wheel travels the same distance \$x = R \varphi\$.  (Full turn is \$2 \pi\$ radians, and the length of the perimeter of a circle with radius \$R\$ is \$2 \pi R\$; similarly, the length of a circular arc with radius \$R\$ that distends an angle \$\varphi\$ in radians is \$R \varphi\$.)



In the same time interval, let's say the blue driven belt/surface moves left by \$y\$.  This means that the surface of the small wheel travels a distance of \$x+y\$, and the small wheel turns by \$\theta = (x + y) / r\$, using the same logic as we used for the large wheel above.

The vehicle has a gearbox with gear ratio \$\lambda = \varphi / \theta\$, with \$\lambda \ne 0\$.  That is, when the small wheel rotates one full turn, the large wheel rotates \$\lambda\$ turns.  Here, let's say \$\lambda = 1:20 = 0.05\$, so that when the large wheel rotates one full turn, the small wheel rotates twenty turns.  When \$\lambda \gt 0\$, the wheels turn in the same direction (as shown in the diagram), when \$\lambda \lt 0\$, the wheels rotate in the opposite directions.

We now have all equations we need to examine the kinematics of the system.  (We don't know or care how much work is done to move the blue surface left by \$y\$, we just know it has done so.) We have:
$$\varphi = \frac{x}{R} \tag{1}\label{1}$$
$$\theta = \frac{x + y}{r} \tag{2}\label{2}$$
$$\varphi = \lambda \theta \tag{3}\label{3}$$
The key here is substituting the first two into the third,
$$\frac{x}{R} = \lambda \frac{x + y}{r}$$
which we can solve for \$x\$,
$$x = y \frac{\lambda R}{r - \lambda R} \tag{X}\label{X}$$
for \$y\$,
$$y = x \frac{r - \lambda R}{\lambda R} \tag{Y}\label{Y}$$
or for \$\lambda\$,
$$\lambda = \frac{r x}{R (x + y)}$$

We can immediately see that \$\frac{\lambda R}{r - \lambda R}\$ is the key term for considering how the vehicle moves.  Let's use
$$x = \nu y \quad \iff \quad \nu = \frac{\lambda R}{r - \lambda R}$$

The only invalid gearing is when \$r = \lambda R\$, i.e. \$\lambda = \frac{r}{R}\$.

Examining the effect of \$\lambda\$ on \$\nu\$, we can make the following observations:
  • When \$0 \lt \lambda \lt \frac{r}{2 R}\$, the vehicle moves as shown in the diagram, with \$0 \le \nu \le 1\$, i.e. \$x \lt y\$.
  • When \$\lambda = \frac{r}{2 R}\$, the vehicle moves as shown in the diagram, with \$\nu = 1\$, i.e. \$x = y\$.
  • When \$\frac{r}{2 R} \lt \lambda \lt \frac{r}{R}\$, the vehicle moves as shown in the diagram, with \$\nu \gt 1\$, i.e. \$x \gt y\$.
    This means that the vehicle moves right faster than the blue surface moves left.
  • When \$\lambda \gt \frac{r}{R}\$, the vehicle moves left faster than the blue surface, with \$\nu \lt -1\$, i.e. \$-x = \lvert x \rvert \gt y\$.

This means that kinematically, with a gearbox where the wheels turn in the same direction (\$\lambda \gt 0\$), the vehicle can move right at any rate, but left only faster than the blue surface.

However, if we also consider gearboxes \$\lambda \lt 0\$, where the two wheels turn in different directions, we find that then \$\nu \lt 0\$ or \$\nu \gt 1\$, i.e. the vehicle can move left at any rate, but right only faster than the blue surface moves left.

That also means that varying the gearing ratio and direction \$\lambda\$, any constant velocity \$x\$ is possible for a given blue surface velocity \$y\$.

Note that a constant velocity kinematic analysis implies that all forces are in balance, since there is no acceleration.  That includes both static and dynamic forces, and both linear and angular forces (torque).  To determine acceleration, both linear and angular momentum would need to be considered also.
Simply put, examining a random subset of forces in a system does not tell you anything about the system.  Either you do it fully, finding the rules for the vehicle behaviour, especially acceleration, or you do a kinematic analysis as I do in this post, and find out what kind of steady states are possible when losses due to friction etc. can be ignored.

The path of such analysis can be considered to start from kinematics (simplest, easy to teach to children; "when this moves thus, how does that have to move"), then rigid body kinetics (forces, torques –– perhaps via ragdoll physics), then to classical mechanics.

For real world models, friction is a major issue.  Test vehicles tend to be light, and slip easily; this means it is extremely important to use small gearing ratios, \$\lambda\$ close to zero.  That is, you need a gearing where the driven/small wheel does many rotations per each large/ground/driving wheel rotation, regardless of whether they turn in the same or in the opposite direction.

I personally created a test vehicle, where the ground/driving wheel is connected to a vertical axis using Lego Technic worm screw, and a thread spooled to the vertical axis; see the attached image below.  This gives \$\lambda = \pm 0.05\$ or so, but even then, adding more weight to the vehicle adds to its traction, and easier to observe behaviour.  Depending on the spooling direction, \$\lambda\$ changes sign, so it is easy to test all the above scenarios.  If you rename trike.txt to trike.ldr, you can open it in LeoCAD.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2023, 01:13:35 am by Nominal Animal »
 
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Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #93 on: February 08, 2023, 01:23:51 am »
This is an aside, intended for those who are interested in how one can and actually should investigate such systems:

You only talk about geometry not physics.
Most have no problems with geometry (I think) the problem is with understanding physics and in particular Newton's 3'rd law.

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #94 on: February 08, 2023, 02:10:28 am »
You only talk about geometry not physics.
Most have no problems with geometry (I think) the problem is with understanding physics and in particular Newton's 3'rd law.
No, the problem is that you won't understand a simple and complete geometric example.  And as has been demonstrated many times here, there is no need (or even place) for your "slip-stick hysteresis energy storage".
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 

Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #95 on: February 08, 2023, 02:20:48 am »
No, the problem is that you won't understand a simple and complete geometric example.  And as has been demonstrated many times here, there is no need (or even place) for your "slip-stick hysteresis energy storage".

Prove that with either correct physics equations or a video of a real world example.
I proved what I claim with video of the real world example.
In case you have not seen watch the first 15 seconds of this video https://odysee.com/@dacustemp:8/stick-slip-removed-from-front-wheels:0
It shows the vehicle in diagram (a) being dragged in the direction of applied force showing that the mechanism is indeed a locked gear so enough force needs to be applied in order to slip in the same direction.
At constant speed so not the acceleration part F2 = F1 during acceleration F2 = F1 + m*a

If you think I did something to fake this test you can do the same and prove that I'm wrong.

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #96 on: February 08, 2023, 02:31:14 am »
No, the problem is that you won't understand a simple and complete geometric example.  And as has been demonstrated many times here, there is no need (or even place) for your "slip-stick hysteresis energy storage".

Prove that with either correct physics equations or a video of a real world example.
That proof has been presented many times.

Just look at Nominal's latest diagram.  Use your brain, and imagine one wheel turning.  What does the other wheel do?  Imagine the wheels on two different surfaces, zero slip.  Hold the vehicle steady and move one surface.  How far must the other surface move, and in what direction?  That's all you need.
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Offline electrodacusTopic starter

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #97 on: February 08, 2023, 02:40:45 am »
That proof has been presented many times.

Just look at Nominal's latest diagram.  Use your brain, and imagine one wheel turning.  What does the other wheel do?  Imagine the wheels on two different surfaces, zero slip.  Hold the vehicle steady and move one surface.  How far must the other surface move, and in what direction?  That's all you need.

I do not need to imagine anything I have the video of the real thing working the way I described.
If you have a video showing something else then feel free to share.

I know you imagine wheel turning as your model is just geometric and not physic. Your mental model does not include Newton's 3'rd law.
So your model will not correspond to reality.

Online IanB

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #98 on: February 08, 2023, 03:02:32 am »
I do not need to imagine anything I have the video of the real thing working the way I described.
If you have a video showing something else then feel free to share.

Yes, it's been shared before, here:

https://imgur.com/a/lTqAFg6
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Force multiplier
« Reply #99 on: February 08, 2023, 03:06:31 am »
Kinematics is physics, even though some call it geometry of motion.  It is the appropriate level of complexity for analysing mechanisms like these.

You do not model forces until you need to consider things like friction and acceleration.  Using only a subset of forces to try and describe a mechanism is an error.  OP's evocation of Newton's laws of motion is a straw man, because A) they are not relevant for the analysis of the mechanism behaviour at this level of complexity (ignoring friction and losses, assuming perfect traction, steady state operation with no acceleration), and B) OP has picked an arbitrary subset of forces that do not describe the system at the level of complexity where those laws would apply, i.e. their "model" does not sufficiently describe the systems at hand.

For an example of an analysis where a complete set of forces would be used, would be to assume the entire system at rest at initial time \$t = 0\$, and then integrate the equations of motion to find out whether the vehicle would accelerate or slip, when some specific (usually constant) force is applied to the paper or blue surface.  Both static and dynamic forces would need to be modeled, both linear and angular, as well as linear and angular momentums.  Again, picking an incomplete subset that happens to support your pet theory isn't physics or science, it is just an error.
 
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