Author Topic: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.  (Read 3879 times)

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Offline edy

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2017, 11:32:55 pm »
Update to the article in the previous post, today's major CNN headline:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/26/technology/business/foxconn-wisconsin/index.html

Is this really necessarily a good thing? Will these Wisconsin jobs be low wage menial labour assembly type jobs where the plant is going to be unable to remain competitive anyways due to the higher cost of production, possible unionization and labour laws? Will this just add expenses to consumers and act like a tax on electronics to fund the economy of Wisconsin?

The CNN front-page headline is "$10 billion investment. 13,000 new jobs.". Sounds like a publicity win but I'm not sure it is really best solution in the long run. Also, they say 3000 jobs initially with the potential for 13,000. If you do the math, divide $10 billion by 3,000 jobs, you get $3 million invested per job. Hmmm....

I know not everyone can be a University of College graduate electronics engineer but if you are going to invest $10B in an electronics plant, I would hope there would be way more electronics jobs. I hope eventually we will see more jobs for electronic engineers, software developers, marketing, product development, etc... not just people on an assembly line. Then again, as each region of the world specializes, free economics and competition should dictate the distribution of the types of labour and products being made, not government imposed taxes and tariffs which will only harm consumers.
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Offline cdev

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2017, 12:14:41 am »
Foxconn's owner is a very ardent advocate of automation so you can bet they will use as much of it as is practicable here in the US. 

One thing they are unlikely to have is lots of people on assembly lines. Also, they are not unlikely to use lots of their own staff as they will get to. China is roughly 16 hours away by air.

A lot of state and local governments are still operating under the assumption that big facility=lots and lots of jobs. I have personal experience observing their very real puzzlement when it doesn't turn out that way.

Those kinds of jobs are going away very quickly.

--------
Under the global value chains system you are describing, Americans make computer chips and aerospace vehicles and other very high value added products and often highly skilled people from low wage countries do various kinds of technical and assembly work.

So, better get that (advanced) degree, and start publishing papers, you're going to need those skills to get and keep just about any job here in the US soon. All those administrative and clerical jobs which now occupy some huge percentage of the American workforce, they are all waiting on imminent changes which will make it immediately much more profitable to move them elsewhere. Lots of firms in other English speaking countries already specialize in handling back office work, they will get that business.

>Then again, as each region of the world specializes, free economics and competition should dictate the distribution of the types of labour and products being made, not government imposed taxes and tariffs which will only harm consumers.

Well, I am sure you'll be happy then.
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Offline WastelandTek

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2017, 12:29:43 am »
oooh good

now Wisconsin workers can jump from the rooftop when they can't take it any more
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Offline cdev

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2017, 12:57:25 am »
I'm sure they will treat their workers better than that. But don't be surprised if they bring their own.

The official US position in the last decade has been opposition to local content requirements (localization rules, .

Neoliberalism argues that imposing such requirements, such as requirements that local goods or services be used,  invariably means higher prices for consumers and lower profits for businesses.   

For example, labor costs might be higher if we required that Foxconn used domestic laborers, engineers, etc. just because they locate in the United States.

The US opposes such rules as a form of protectionism and has signed on to an G20 agreement to eliminate them all by 2018.


Here is the official US statement on local content requirements.
Just disregard the stuff the paid acting staff say.

_________
   
   In the last few years, a growing number of America’s trading partners have imposed what are called “localization barriers to trade” - measures designed to protect, favor, or stimulate domestic industries, service providers, and/or intellectual property (IP) at the expense of goods, services, or IP from other countries. Localization barriers are measures that can serve as disguised trade barriers when they unreasonably differentiate between domestic and foreign products, services, IP, or suppliers, and may or may not be consistent with WTO rules. Examples of localization barriers include:
  • Local content requirements, i.e., requirements to purchase domestically-manufactured goods or domestically-supplied services
  • Subsidies or other preferences that are only received if producers use local goods, locally- owned service providers, or domestically-owned or developed IP, or IP that is first registered in that country;
  • Requirements to provide services using local facilities or infrastructure;
  • Measures to force the transfer of technology or IP ;
  • Requirements to comply with country- or region-specific or design-based standards that create unnecessary obstacles to trade
  • Unjustified requirements to conduct or carry out duplicative conformity assessment procedures in-country.
When foreign goods, services, or IP are either disadvantaged in a market compared to domestic goods, services, or IP, or when they’re kept out of the market altogether, that can distort trade, discourage foreign direct investment, and push other trading partners to impose similarly detrimental measures. And, consequently, often over the long term, these measures can actually stand in the way of the economic growth and competitiveness objectives that they were intended to achieve.For these reasons, it has been longstanding U.S. trade policy to advocate strongly against localization barriers and instead encourage trading partners to pursue policy approaches that help their economic growth and competitiveness without discriminating against imported goods or services.Now, USTR has established the Trade Policy Staff Committee Task Force on Localization Barriers to Trade to develop and execute a more strategic and coordinated approach to address localization barriers. This work will build upon USTR initiatives already underway, including those that are seeking to address localization barriers through binding trade agreements, enforcement, and advocacy. It will promote global-level policy approaches that offer better ways to stimulate job creation and economic growth. The Task Force will pursue this mission through a variety of bilateral, regional, and multilateral forums, including the WTO, APEC, OECD, and the Trade and Investment Framework Agreement dialogues with other countries. It will also work closely with U.S. industry and other stakeholders, as well as with trading partners around the world, to carry out its mission and reduce market access challenges posed to U.S. goods, services, and IP by localization barriers.
   

« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 02:16:25 am by cdev »
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Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2017, 02:07:30 am »
The Chinese auto manufacturer BYD did invest on a factory to build electric transit buses for LA and Long Beach.
The factory of course, is located in Lancaster, a city close to Los Angeles.

However, according to NPR, the factory was promptly fined by the California Labor Commissioner's office. The plant in Lancaster, which has yet to open, is under investigation for paying workers below minimum wage. The workers were "imported" from China.
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2017, 03:24:16 am »
C'mon Negative Nellies. This is a good thing. It's awesome to see manufacturing coming home.  :-+
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2017, 03:52:30 am »
The Chinese auto manufacturer BYD did invest on a factory to build electric transit buses for LA and Long Beach.
The factory of course, is located in Lancaster, a city close to Los Angeles.

However, according to NPR, the factory was promptly fined by the California Labor Commissioner's office. The plant in Lancaster, which has yet to open, is under investigation for paying workers below minimum wage. The workers were "imported" from China.

H1B for organizations with more than 50 employees requires matching, so essentially if you hire a Chinese in the US, you have to match a US worker. That's why you see some high tech companies set up their phone call centers and other low wage positions in the US to match their Chinese and Indian engineers.
For those companies without matching (such as a consultant company, which is pretty much full of H1B workers, like Tata or InfoSystems), their H1B workers must be paid very high in order to gain labor certification (so essentially they need to hit EB3 green card requirement just to get H1B).
As for minimal wage violation, there is a loophole in the laws to make it legal -- FTE (full time employment). You can certify an employer to work 1.0 FTE as if he is producing 40 hr/wk worth of outcome, but the real working hour doesn't have to be 40 hours. Therefore you can set up a higher goal and pay them, say, 0.5 FTE so that they still work 40 hr/wk but you pay them for only 20 hours, effectively halves the wage standard. You need to justify that if they work really hard, they can achieve that in only 20 hours, but that can be easily done by employing a few elite workers as "certification template".
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2017, 09:38:26 am »
Foxconn moves their sweatshops to wherever their battery hens are cheapest. Do not expect the US workers to have a good life under Foxconn - they will be exploited. Guo Tai-ming might need to install nets over the new factory windows to prevent his workers committing suicide.

Companies like Foxconn give the electronics industry, and indeed humanity, a bad name.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2017, 10:35:16 am »
Is it a safe bet the local out of work trailer bound community need not apply for any position ?  :-//

I'll bet they BYO a few boatloads of English challenged cheap labor that are 'hard workers'

and claim the locals were too lazy to get off their asses and apply


You could get away with that sh!t in the 1980s.. but it's like 2017 now  :palm: :palm:


 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2017, 02:08:49 pm »
C'mon Negative Nellies. This is a good thing. It's awesome to see manufacturing coming home.  :-+

Don't misunderstand me, I'm also very happy for those jobs.

All I'm pointing out, is that there will be a significant culture shock....for both the US workers and the Chinese bosses.

There was actually a hilarious movie about that in the late 1980s:  "Gung Ho", about a Japanese auto transplant in a depressed small American town.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2017, 03:14:02 pm »
I may be wrong, but I think H1-B is for recently graduated students and L-1 visas would be used for intra-corporate workers.  So its a different program with totally different rules.

Whether countries (like the US) can limit the numbers of workers whose companies otherwise qualify (companies that have a presence here, who already have gotten "market access") with quotas is currently being disputed by India who argue that we had already agreed to an unlimited number of workers from qualified firms back in the 90s in the original Uruguay Round. In a letter, John Conyers and Lamar Smith (they sit on the Judiciary committee, The chairpeople of the committee have repeatedly asked USTR not to sign any additional trade agreements that give irreversible entitlements to foreign firms that have the potential to enable the loss of millions of jobs. The wording makes it clear that current commitments already do present problems in this area. The US is not Europe which takes care of people when they lose a job, even if its for the rest of their life. Here, they deny that these changes are going on so workers who are displaced are expected to find other jobs. But, often there are no other jobs.

Its really a mixed bag. The logic of trade agreements makes a number of assumptions about workers, one that they can travel anywhere in the world to work, when in fact workers, not corporations are limited by national boundaries. At the same time corporations are being given new rights to use their workers - even from the least regulated countries, which will save them money on wages and cause a race to the bottom - "least common denominator" of regulation on standards of all kinds. (Harmonization)

Manufacturing is not a service- so its actual manufacturing workforce (as opposed to subcontractors working providing services, such as engineering or design to those manufacturers) may not be subject to the same liberal rules on intra-corporate work as service industries.


IMHO, They have obviously spent millions of man hours creating a new "amoral system" - in secret, then they are claiming its agreement - which its not, which totally shafts the people of the entire planet. For example, all the GOP's healthcare changes going on in the US now, will lock in. Nobody knows that.

I don't know what they are trying to do.

I do know that a group of countries led by India is trying to hold the US to the terms of the original Uruguay Round if Doha collapses definitively. This body of economic integration issues are the major subject of discussion I am sure in the upcoming Buenos-Aires WTO Ministerial.

Last year at the G20 meeting the G20 nations pledged to eliminate protectionism by 2018 so we should see all of the Trump/Clinton farce as an attempt to fool the American public (the European and Australian publics, although still not so well informed are far better informed about services liberalisation than Americans)

The changes sought, creation of a "world without walls" been described by former WTO DG Mike Moore as the largest wealth transfer in history.

The problem which we can see from the contentious health care non "debate" is that we still have a lot of unfinished work here in the US. Huge segments of our population are living paycheck to paycheck. Iregardless of other factors, suddenly putting millions of Americans out of work so that the jobs can be given to global subcontractors working for below what Americans see as the rock bottom "minimum wage" while offshoring millions of jobs and subcontracting away many jobs here, while gutting the social safety net (this is in fact what is being done) will likely cause extreme changes in a great many peoples health due to their failure to be able to do anything to prevent it (look up "restraint stress" in the medical literature on PubMed) Paradoxically, it will create a real health as well as a human nightmare.

If we look at the issues caused by climate change (especially extreme weather) and add in the expected jumps in the cost of energy caused by energy export (Australia has seen this same thing happen recently) - if we look at the typical construction of American homes (cellulose - i.e. paper over gypsum wallboard, i.e. need constant attention to keeping humidity low enough to prevent mold growth, something that will be hard for people struggling - either if they are not working, utilities may be out of their reach, or working two or three jobs -remember wages will fall- trying to maintain their homes.) as well as the low elevation and extended river valleys that make up the American heartland (not unlike the Amazon river basin in the future if temperatures rise only a few degrees C as they are predicted to do, perhaps much faster than predicted because of the methane clathrate release issue.) with various vector borne illnesses of poverty already having established a foothold in our southernmost states, they will work their way inward.

All of this and they clearly know it because they have been told all these things, the fake ignorance and denial of climate change, etc. is an act- still are hell bent on the changes they want to make tells us- what?

People all around the world have a vested interest in reversing these people's push to reverse the progress of the last century. They want to divide and conquer the planet by pitting all the people against one another in competition for the same vanishing pool of jobs and then reap the profits as wages approach zero.

If we do the math, in this situation of total market fauilure, they will end up the owners of everything everywhere and the people everywhere will be enslaved by debt, begging for them to give them a right to remain alive.

Technology should be giving humanity this amazing gift of time but instead these agreements take all the gifts and funnel them to the wealthiest and most corrupt companies and people. Not the most innovative. (unless you mean in thievery)

Chinese and Indian people deserve good wages, as do Americans, we all do.

We all also deserve to have opportunity in our own countries and not have entire groups of people's futures snatched away by some unholy deal to screw them, while stealing their votes.


----------

Also, trade agreements can hurt self-trained people by nullifying their experience. Even if they have decades of experience. Also, they have the potential to give corporations rights to use staff from all around the world, if they have "like" qualifications that are formally recognized. This puts smaller firms (the engines of most job creation in the US) at a huge disadvantage.

See the attached file from the OECD.
----------

Quote from: blueskull on Yesterday at 21:52:30>Quote from: schmitt trigger on Yesterday at 20:07:30>The Chinese auto manufacturer BYD did invest on a factory to build electric transit buses for LA and Long Beach.
The factory of course, is located in Lancaster, a city close to Los Angeles.

However, according to NPR, the factory was promptly fined by the California Labor Commissioner's office. The plant in Lancaster, which has yet to open, is under investigation for paying workers below minimum wage. The workers were "imported" from China.
H1B for organizations with more than 50 employees requires matching, so essentially if you hire a Chinese in the US, you have to match a US worker. That's why you see some high tech companies set up their phone call centers and other low wage positions in the US to match their Chinese and Indian engineers.
For those companies without matching (such as a consultant company, which is pretty much full of H1B workers, like Tata or InfoSystems), their H1B workers must be paid very high in order to gain labor certification (so essentially they need to hit EB3 green card requirement just to get H1B).

As for minimal wage violation, there is a loophole in the laws to make it legal -- FTE (full time employment). You can certify an employer to work 1.0 FTE as if he is producing 40 hr/wk worth of outcome, but the real working hour doesn't have to be 40 hours.

Therefore you can set up a higher goal and pay them, say, 0.5 FTE so that they still work 40 hr/wk but you pay them for only 20 hours, effectively halves the wage standard. You need to justify that if they work really hard, they can achieve that in only 20 hours, but that can be easily done by employing a few elite workers as "certification template".

« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 06:53:23 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2017, 03:33:35 pm »
oooh good

now Wisconsin workers can jump from the rooftop when they can't take it any more
At a lower rate than the population at large, as in China? (What the media almost never reported during the Foxconn suicide outrage nonsense was that the suicide rate among Foxconn employees was massively lower than that of the Chinese population as a whole.)
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2017, 06:52:11 pm »
Instead of focusing on the negative, think of all the great things that come with new factories: automation sales, programming and maintenance, manufacturing engineers, admin jobs, construction, services, logistics, etc. There will be all kinds of opportunities to do well without being a direct Foxconn employee.

I've spent a considerable amount of time in factories in the rust belt and doubt there is anything Foxconn can build that's scarier than some of the American-owned and operated factories I've seen.
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2017, 07:00:21 pm »
C'mon Negative Nellies. This is a good thing. It's awesome to see manufacturing coming home.  :-+

Don't misunderstand me, I'm also very happy for those jobs.

All I'm pointing out, is that there will be a significant culture shock....for both the US workers and the Chinese bosses.

There was actually a hilarious movie about that in the late 1980s:  "Gung Ho", about a Japanese auto transplant in a depressed small American town.

I didn't need to see the movie. I've spent time in several captive Japanese-owned plants in the US. There is culture shock on both sides. The morning calisthenics is a real thing and so is karaoke in the lunch room.  The safe, clean working conditions, and commitment to process control and quality are real as well.  Maybe Americans will eventually get used to the shock of decent working conditions and steady work.   

The real hell hole slave ships are run by your fellow Americans, not the Japanese. The Chinese will likely not beat the Japanese standard because it is quite high, but I'm betting these places will not be the nightmares folks predict. 
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2017, 07:10:26 pm »
C'mon Negative Nellies. This is a good thing. It's awesome to see manufacturing coming home.  :-+
I rather see manufacturing going away. More manufacturing means more clever work is done elsewhere (where the real money is made). Foxconn moving assembly jobs to your country is a very bad sign on the wall. Where do you think the engineering will be done? It starts with a 'T' and ends with an 'n'.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2017, 07:33:33 pm »
C'mon Negative Nellies. This is a good thing. It's awesome to see manufacturing coming home.  :-+
I rather see manufacturing going away. More manufacturing means more clever work is done elsewhere (where the real money is made). Foxconn moving assembly jobs to your country is a very bad sign on the wall. Where do you think the engineering will be done? It starts with a 'T' and ends with an 'n'.

These are not mutually exclusive alternatives. A person that assembles iPhones does not design the iPhone. The US used to capture the full product value chain from design through manufacturing.  And so it is again.  This is a good trend.

I realize that this is the internet and being totally down on everything is the norm, but buck up little campers. The sky is not falling.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2017, 07:51:55 pm »
Photos of Taiwan-based Foxconn's facilities in the PRC.

The trend is for wages in services to become much more competitive.

Global Value Chains, a core part of US policy,  means that parts of trade-able products and services must be manufactured where they are made or performed the cheapest.

However, multinatiopnal corporations cannot be required to favor local products or services (i.e. workforce) as that is framed as unfair discrimination and protectionism.

Wage and hour laws are seen as trade barriers intended to keep foreign firms from getting their long delayed pay back for globalization. (because after all, their employees have never been paid these "minimum" wages.) The attempts to raise them even higher is being framed in some countries not as a matter of survival for many people, instead its framed as a plot- as a way we are trying to put conditions on our obligations to open up, and a means of avoiding our WTO obligations. They expect their exports of services - which grew for a long time because they were under the radar, to keep growing, and frame the changes here as people became aware that this was occurring systematically, as part of a plot to cheat their country of what they are owed. Its blamed on the pressure of well connected groups in the US.

Meanwhile, in response to US pressure, they cut back severely on public higher education, leading to riots as low income students who had no other way of paying for college, mobilized in anger. Basically, the GATS and its progeny - led by the US, is pushing countries to pull up their ladders to success. (And of course, we have to lead this crusade against equality here. Its not negotiable.)

Unfortunately, its been my understanding for a  long time that indeed, other countries were being tacitly promised jobs. Basically, this whole new "amoral system" which worships "the market" has been set up, under the radar. This has many qualities of cults or theocracies, in that its core tenets cannot be questioned. This new state religion looms large in the interactions between the US and EU countries and the developing countries.

Basically, they have been trained, by Western countries, that the new world order is simply more work for less money = entitlement to contract.

"Such is what globally mobile capital demands" the argument goes.

So all the accomplishments of the 20th century must be jettisoned to stay competitive. But, even if wages and working conditons fell to those under slavery - even slavery cannot compete with the almost free labor of automation.

So, this is a system that is laying the foundation that could be used to justify a global genocide.

I think that if we learned anything from the 20th century it should be that that kind of logic is extremely dangerous and wrong.

So why are our governments pushing it behind our backs?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 08:36:31 pm by cdev »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2017, 08:04:54 pm »
C'mon Negative Nellies. This is a good thing. It's awesome to see manufacturing coming home.  :-+
I rather see manufacturing going away. More manufacturing means more clever work is done elsewhere (where the real money is made). Foxconn moving assembly jobs to your country is a very bad sign on the wall. Where do you think the engineering will be done? It starts with a 'T' and ends with an 'n'.
These are not mutually exclusive alternatives. A person that assembles iPhones does not design the iPhone. The US used to capture the full product value chain from design through manufacturing.
There is no value in manufacturing (it is more like a nuisance). If there was value in manufacturing then Apple et al would have had their own factories instead of outsourcing it. The Chinese may provide cheap labour now but wait until the rest of Asia and the African continent gets their sh*t together. You can compete with that but only with highly automated factories (no manual labour) and huge numbers of the same product so even though the volume is high it still is a niche market.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 08:07:15 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2017, 08:55:34 pm »
Please don't frame it like this. They are very hard workers but thats a plus. The value of labor is determined by supply and demand and to lower the cost of labor, i.e. wages, you have to increase supply or reduce demand. Economics 101.

This is why today with our rapid increases in automation combined with globalization, elites see themselves as being entitled to ever-rising profits generated by rapidly falling wages. 

Don't fault the young Chinese workers for working hard. They are just doing what we told them to do to win at our game.

The people who are qualified for the jobs should apply if they become available. It would likely be a very interesting experience.

But, for that reason, because experience is valuable, more and more valuable as jobs dry up, more and more jobs pay very little or in some sense are unpaid. Thats also economics - Maybe not 101.

Basically free labor is now being provided by people who want experience. In the EU many people pay to work at fake businesses which are framed as schools, so their skills wont get rusty during longer and longer periods of unemployment.

If you've invested lots of money in your education, you have to work, whether you are paid or not, to keep your skills honed. 

This situation favors the wealthy who can pay the rent for their children while they perform years of unpaid or low pay work after finishing college. To get their experience so they can get a good job. But, it may never pan out for many of them.

Because of automation doing more and more at an exponential rate, and services liberalisation, they may never be paid a living wage. They may just be taken advantage of until their parents money runs out.

Quote from: Electro Detective on Today at 04:35:16>Is it a safe bet the local out of work trailer bound community need not apply for any position ?  :-//

I'll bet they BYO a few boatloads of English challenged cheap labor that are 'hard workers'

and claim the locals were too lazy to get off their asses and apply


You could get away with that sh!t in the 1980s.. but it's like 2017 now  :palm: :palm:



Trade agreements create a mandate that regulation will always fall and never rise, so why would company XYZ be less and not more empowered to jettison regulation now than they were in the 1980s before all these agreements to deregulate everything were signed?

These international agreements act like a one way street to deregulation.

for a good example of how this works, see the PDF below. Warning, don't read it if you want to remain ignorant of whats really going on here.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 09:01:19 pm by cdev »
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Online lukier

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2017, 09:22:01 pm »
Hmm, it seems that Foxconn will get massive benefits from the state:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-27/america-and-the-foxconn-dream

Quote
Wisconsin is about to shell out as much as $3 billion for the privilege of luring Foxconn Technology Group. At $519 per citizen, it would have been cheaper to buy an iPhone for every man, woman and child in the midwestern state.

Quote
Let's take a look at those figures: Wisconsin is paying as much as $1 million per job, which will carry an average salary of $54,000. The state's economic development corporation is selling the project to taxpayers with a claim that it will create 10,000 construction jobs for building the facility and another 6,000 indirect positions. It's expecting $3.3 million of investment per employee from the Taiwanese company.

I'm not sure that's the best way to spend public money. Foxconn is not a non-profit organisation.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2017, 09:53:45 pm »
Ive heard hundreds of stories of communities making all these concessions and then a company bailing after a few years anyway.

They are likely to do whatever they do one way or the other.

Also, there likely WON'T be any assurance they will even employ Wisconsinites! 

Why do they keep on doing the same things that have not worked in the past, simply parroting what they think will attract cargo like a cargo cult.  If they want to attract good jobs, give every Wisconsinite who does well in their studies in an in-demand field a free education through as much college as they can handle.  A four year degree isnt enough any more, people with two and four year degrees are losing jobs in large numbers.

Oh, thats against the WTO GATS? Then dump the GATS.

"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2017, 09:58:02 pm »
I'm not sure that's the best way to spend public money. Foxconn is not a non-profit organisation.

Political 101, getting your people happier is not as effective as getting your boss happier if you want to be successful as a politician and gain power.
If I'm a governor, I would place making Trump happy (by bringing "jobs" that may not exist back) before making local people and budget dept happy.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2017, 09:58:44 pm »
Quote from: lukier on Today at 15:22:01
Hmm, it seems that Foxconn will get massive benefits from the state
:
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2017, 10:04:01 pm »
I may be wrong, but I think H1-B is for recently graduated students and L-1 visas would be used for intra-corporate workers.  So its a different program with totally different rules.

H1B can be extended to 10 years, and on average, green card by employment (EB3) needs 5 years to obtain, therefore for foreign workers, H1B->EB3 is the easiest and most practiced way.

L1 means you are in a significant position of an international company, for example, Lenovo can send its high level management team from China to US on L1 visa. For most engineer level (not making enough influence to be a management) employees, L1 is not possible.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2017, 11:16:04 pm »
Things have changed, a lot. Although we're given the impression that it is, this may not be illegal, because the business relationship between them and their employer may be considered to be protected under Mode Four of the WTO GATS agreement. Assuming that individual workers are only in the country temporarily. (with no real definition as to how long that may be.) 

Additionally, the offshorability of US service jobs is likely to be very high too.

http://voxeu.org/article/twenty-five-percent-us-jobs-are-offshorable

A slightly more recent Harvard replication study looking at Alan Blinder's work concluded that he was likely conservative in his estimates. They concluded that 41% of US jobs were offshorable.

It seems that they may well have quietly committed in little known but binding deals to let businesses from overseas open up shop here and use their own employees.

By the way it appears that BVD is hiring plant workers. I think Blueskull probably nailed exactly what's going on.

China has 1.5 billion people which is five times the size of the US, in a country thats about the same physical size, so they have an awful lot of engineers too.

This is a complicated situation with no easy answers. The best thing America could do is buckle down and educate our young people to be the best and the brightest in the world even if it cuts into the defense budget. Right now we spend more than the entire rest of the world combined on defense.

On the path we're on, we're going to become a nation of unhealthy, uneducated, unemployable, increasingly broken people with nuclear weapons. We have to smarten up. Taxes should completely pay for the education of all of our best students, at least.

Nobody should be bankrupted by health care costs.

Quote from: schmitt trigger on Yesterday at 20:07:30>The Chinese auto manufacturer BYD did invest on a factory to build electric transit buses for LA and Long Beach.
The factory of course, is located in Lancaster, a city close to Los Angeles.

However, according to NPR, the factory was promptly fined by the California Labor Commissioner's office. The plant in Lancaster, which has yet to open, is under investigation for paying workers below minimum wage. The workers were "imported" from China.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 11:30:38 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2017, 08:57:46 am »
Someone must be cashing in on the apparent chaos and imminent 'harder times coming' over there,

any ideas who?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2017, 09:28:59 am »
Update to the article in the previous post, today's major CNN headline:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/26/technology/business/foxconn-wisconsin/index.html

Is this really necessarily a good thing? Will these Wisconsin jobs be low wage menial labour assembly type jobs where the plant is going to be unable to remain competitive anyways due to the higher cost of production, possible unionization and labour laws?

You think they're going to create any jobs? The only factories that could realistically be built in the USA are factories full of robots.

Nah, all these companies suddenly announcing new onshore factories are just aiming for some big tax breaks from the orange idiot who's temporarily running the country.

There'll be some (subsidized) construction jobs while it's being built, sure. After that? Nada. Blame the Democrats for all the job losses four years from now.

 

Offline cdev

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2017, 12:42:27 pm »
Any job / service involving subsidies may have to be put up for international bidding.  (procurement) So then it may go to the lowest bidding firm. Could be from some place with v. low wages.
 :palm:
Or yes, heavily automated.
 :scared:
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2017, 06:25:35 pm »
Ive heard hundreds of stories of communities making all these concessions and then a company bailing after a few years anyway.


That is exactly what happened to the small city where I live.
A large, all-American corporation, wanted to bust its Union on their main facility in the Rustbelt.
They gained a lot of city and state concessions, and this being a right-to-work state, did not allow the new facility to unionize.

Long story short, after two, perhaps three years, with the Union up north defeated. They simply. Bailed. Out.
Just like that.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2017, 06:45:37 pm »
Smoke and mirrors. 

It's no coincidence this is supposed to happen in Wisconsin.  Anti-Union Scott Walker up for re-election in 2018 as is Paul Ryan. Plant not to be built until 2020.... 

Look at Foxconn's track record.   Politicians and their mythical to-be-built-in-the-future manufacturing facilities (coincidentely usually announced in important states before critical elections..).  ::)
 

Offline Scrts

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2017, 08:12:22 pm »
I may be wrong, but I think H1-B is for recently graduated students and L-1 visas would be used for intra-corporate workers.  So its a different program with totally different rules.

H1B can be extended to 10 years, and on average, green card by employment (EB3) needs 5 years to obtain, therefore for foreign workers, H1B->EB3 is the easiest and most practiced way.

L1 means you are in a significant position of an international company, for example, Lenovo can send its high level management team from China to US on L1 visa. For most engineer level (not making enough influence to be a management) employees, L1 is not possible.

This is not true. I am a regular engineer in a company on L1 (B) visa.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Foxconn may build $7B plant in U.S.
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2017, 08:26:08 pm »
It may vary quite a bit from country to country. I think that is part of India's argument.

So you both may be right.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 


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