Author Topic: France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets  (Read 1655 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2028
  • Country: gb
France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets
« on: August 13, 2020, 12:49:43 am »
I went to Amerstam many years ago and in the winter and it was the cold all around. About 2 years later I went back about the same time of the year and noticed these floodlights with this bulb that emitted a red light with lot heat and they seem to be all over the streets in many shop fronts in the place I was staying. Where it was really cold on some streets without these things it was like summer on busy streets with these things everywhere and switched on. I thought what a waste of electricity and that couldn't be good for the environment. I remembered in about Spring time something about an early short heatwave from hot air flowing from Europe into Britain but maybe that is just a coincidence. I didn't know they did this in France but I read that they going to put a stop to this.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90533015/france-will-ban-outdoor-heating-at-restaurants
Quote
07-27-20 WORLD CHANGING IDEAS
France is going to ban outdoor heating at restaurants
Bring a blanket, because the heaters are an “ecological aberration.”


BY KRISTIN TOUSSAINT 2 MINUTE READ
Outdoor dining has been popular in France since long before the COVID-19 pandemic, but next year, it may be a bit more difficult to do when the weather turns less-than-ideal. The French government committed to banning outdoor heaters at restaurants and bars as part of a package of measures meant to make the country more environmentally friendly.

Ecology Minister Barbara Pompili said that outdoor heating or air conditioning was an “ecological aberration,” according to the BBC, which reported that the ban isn’t set to go into effect until after the winter, in order to give restaurants that have been hit by the pandemic more time to recover economically.

Rennes, in northwest France, outlawed heated terraces in January, becoming the first French municipality to do so. Though Paris mayor Anne Hidalgo has previously said she wouldn’t ban outdoor heaters because of how it would harm businesses, some residents there have called for them to be banned over concerns about gas and electricity use. Jacques Boutault, mayor of Paris’s second arrondissement, called for an outdoor heating ban in March, telling Euronews that if Paris wants to reach its goal of being carbon neutral by 2030, then it has to begin by not “using pointless energy like these heaters.”

There are about 12,500 heated terraces in Paris alone, per the BBC. Heated terraces became especially commonplace in the city after bans on indoor smoking went into effect. Thierry Salomon, vice president of the French sustainable energy advocacy group NegaWatt, estimates that one terrace with five gas heaters running for 14 hours a day from November to March produces 13.6 tonnes of CO2, “the equivalent of what a new car would emit if it went around the Earth three times.”

Others have pointed out that heating—and cooling—the outdoor air is extremely inefficient. Speaking to reporters on Monday after announcing this latest climate package, Pompili added that it was wrong for stores to “air-condition the streets” in the summer by keeping their doors open. “Neither should terraces be heated in winter so people can feel warm as they drink coffee,” she said. As part of the environmental package, all heated or air-conditioned buildings open to the public will have to keep their doors closed, so as not to waste energy.

The environmental efforts announced Monday were recommended by the Citizens’ Convention on Climate, a group of 150 randomly selected French citizens that was set up by President Emmanuel Macron in 2019. The announced measures also include the creation of two natural parks and a nature reserve, and calls for building owners to improve insulation and not install new coal- or oil-burning furnaces
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 12:53:29 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9821
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2020, 01:47:17 am »
I always felt future historians would show pictures of these things when global warming and our folly are discussed.
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17427
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2020, 03:57:11 am »
They would not be using radiant heating outdoors unless it made economic sense, which it may not if the cost of the power for it is being subsidized but how would the businesses know that?

So somewhere the government is subsidizing the power.  Stop doing that and if radiant heating outdoors does not result in greater profits from increased sales, businesses will stop doing it.  Solving one market distortion with another will just lead to rent seeking, which it already has.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 03:59:12 am by David Hess »
 
The following users thanked this post: MrMobodies, Weston

Online NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9319
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2020, 04:16:55 am »
Wouldn't it make more sense to just heat the seats that are being used?
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 
The following users thanked this post: Ed.Kloonk, MrMobodies

Offline KaneTW

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 811
  • Country: de
Re: France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2020, 04:20:15 am »
What nonsense. All patio heaters combined don't even make a drop in the bucket in energy consumption.
If they did, they would be too expensive to operate for a restaurant.

The trend of taking away comforts for a perceived improvement in climate change while bigger, actual improvements flounder is extremely irritating.
 
The following users thanked this post: amyk, Cyberdragon, SiliconWizard, MrMobodies

Offline bdunham7

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8175
  • Country: us
Re: France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2020, 04:42:27 am »
They would not be using radiant heating outdoors unless it made economic sense, which it may not if the cost of the power for it is being subsidized but how would the businesses know that?

So somewhere the government is subsidizing the power.  Stop doing that and if radiant heating outdoors does not result in greater profits from increased sales, businesses will stop doing it.  Solving one market distortion with another will just lead to rent seeking, which it already has.

C'mon Dave, gimme a break.  There will be no need for economics in the new post-capitalist, post-modern socialist utopia that is about to begin.  It will all be social credits and virtue signaling from now on.   :(
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2020, 05:53:05 am »
These are all over in Chicago too, in front of some businesses, at a lot of the commuter rail stations, awnings with a bank of blazing halogen heat lamps under them. It feels nice to stand under one on a frigid evening but it has struck me as a huge waste of energy too.
 

Offline RoGeorge

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7011
  • Country: ro
Re: France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2020, 06:36:35 am »
I went to Amerstam many years ago and in the winter and it was the cold all around. About 2 years later I went back about the same time of the year and noticed these floodlights with this bulb that emitted a red light with lot heat and they seem to be all over the streets in many shop fronts in the place I was staying. Where it was really cold on some streets without these things it was like summer on busy streets with these things everywhere and switched on. I thought what a waste of electricity and that couldn't be good for the environment. I remembered in about Spring time something about an early short heatwave from hot air flowing from Europe into Britain but maybe that is just a coincidence. I didn't know they did this in France but I read that they going to put a stop to this.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90533015/france-will-ban-outdoor-heating-at-restaurants
Quote
07-27-20 WORLD CHANGING IDEAS
France is going to ban outdoor heating at restaurants
Bring a blanket, because the heaters are an “ecological aberration.”


BY KRISTIN TOUSSAINT 2 MINUTE READ
Outdoor dining has been popular in France since long before the COVID-19 pandemic, but next year, it may be a bit more difficult to do when the weather turns less-than-ideal. The French government committed to banning outdoor heaters at restaurants and bars as part of a package of measures meant to make the country more environmentally friendly.

Ecology Minister Barbara Pompili said that outdoor heating or air conditioning was an “ecological aberration,” according to the BBC, which reported that the ban isn’t set to go into effect until after the winter, in order to give restaurants that have been hit by the pandemic more time to recover economically.

Rennes, in northwest France, outlawed heated terraces in January, becoming the first French municipality to do so. Though Paris mayor Anne Hidalgo has previously said she wouldn’t ban outdoor heaters because of how it would harm businesses, some residents there have called for them to be banned over concerns about gas and electricity use. Jacques Boutault, mayor of Paris’s second arrondissement, called for an outdoor heating ban in March, telling Euronews that if Paris wants to reach its goal of being carbon neutral by 2030, then it has to begin by not “using pointless energy like these heaters.”

There are about 12,500 heated terraces in Paris alone, per the BBC. Heated terraces became especially commonplace in the city after bans on indoor smoking went into effect. Thierry Salomon, vice president of the French sustainable energy advocacy group NegaWatt, estimates that one terrace with five gas heaters running for 14 hours a day from November to March produces 13.6 tonnes of CO2, “the equivalent of what a new car would emit if it went around the Earth three times.”

Others have pointed out that heating—and cooling—the outdoor air is extremely inefficient. Speaking to reporters on Monday after announcing this latest climate package, Pompili added that it was wrong for stores to “air-condition the streets” in the summer by keeping their doors open. “Neither should terraces be heated in winter so people can feel warm as they drink coffee,” she said. As part of the environmental package, all heated or air-conditioned buildings open to the public will have to keep their doors closed, so as not to waste energy.

The environmental efforts announced Monday were recommended by the Citizens’ Convention on Climate, a group of 150 randomly selected French citizens that was set up by President Emmanuel Macron in 2019. The announced measures also include the creation of two natural parks and a nature reserve, and calls for building owners to improve insulation and not install new coal- or oil-burning furnaces

This is a technical forum, mostly electronics oriented, and I would like to keep it technical.

Your last messages were:
  • General Chat / France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets
  • Dodgy Technology / Re: Evaporative coolers hysteria wave
  • General Chat / Re: Jordan Pier on elitist attitudes for younger players
  • General Computing / Spinners/ page dimming overlays increasing and blocklist
  • General Chat / Re: level of Advertising is getting Ridiculous

Are you a propaganda bot?
 
The following users thanked this post: Ed.Kloonk

Offline magic

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7453
  • Country: pl
Re: France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2020, 06:49:09 am »
I always wonder if people these days don't even know what 'troll' or 'bot' actually means or if their perception of reality really is that warped :P
 

Offline coppercone2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11333
  • Country: us
  • $
Re: France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2020, 07:03:59 am »
These are all over in Chicago too, in front of some businesses, at a lot of the commuter rail stations, awnings with a bank of blazing halogen heat lamps under them. It feels nice to stand under one on a frigid evening but it has struck me as a huge waste of energy too.

i think they are a good idea at train stations and bus stops and places that you need to wait for a long time in the winter, and its nice for homeless people. Making public transportation more pleasant to use might reduce greenhouse emissions more then the lights consume.

It does reduce virus spread when you have a warmed outdoor area rather then packing people into a warmed waiting booth, and its safer because you can be seen (unlike frosty windows etc). Even with non coronavirus diseases (common cold), reducing public disease spread causes massive savings in health care and productivity, allowing for more taxation. There was always someone sneezing and sniffling inside of the waiting booth at a train station I used to go to. So, I would simply stand outside under the warming lamp, and sit far away from them on the train (the train is huge in comparison to the small warming stations).

And its a bit more of a charming atmosphere, since you usually still have snow around, and you are not sitting in a puddle filled overly dry hot waiting booth with sick people listening to coughing and boots squeaking.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 07:18:17 am by coppercone2 »
 

Online NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9319
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2020, 12:59:39 pm »
Wouldn't it more efficient to have the benches be heated? Have them pressure sensitive so they only operate when in use with a foot operated lever to adjust the heat output.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2020, 01:55:04 pm »
They would not be using radiant heating outdoors unless it made economic sense, which it may not if the cost of the power for it is being subsidized but how would the businesses know that?

So somewhere the government is subsidizing the power.  Stop doing that and if radiant heating outdoors does not result in greater profits from increased sales, businesses will stop doing it.  Solving one market distortion with another will just lead to rent seeking, which it already has.

I seem to recall that France is something around 80% nuclear powered...   their incremental cost of electricity is likely extremely low.
 
The following users thanked this post: MrMobodies

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9821
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2020, 01:58:26 pm »
i think they are a good idea at train stations and bus stops and places that you need to wait for a long time in the winter, and its nice for homeless people. Making public transportation more pleasant to use might reduce greenhouse emissions more then the lights consume.

It does reduce virus spread when you have a warmed outdoor area rather then packing people into a warmed waiting booth, and its safer because you can be seen (unlike frosty windows etc). Even with non coronavirus diseases (common cold), reducing public disease spread causes massive savings in health care and productivity, allowing for more taxation. There was always someone sneezing and sniffling inside of the waiting booth at a train station I used to go to. So, I would simply stand outside under the warming lamp, and sit far away from them on the train (the train is huge in comparison to the small warming stations).

And its a bit more of a charming atmosphere, since you usually still have snow around, and you are not sitting in a puddle filled overly dry hot waiting booth with sick people listening to coughing and boots squeaking.
You know what's nice for homeless people? Housing. Heating the street for them is solving one stupid problem with another.
 

Online tszaboo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8217
  • Country: nl
  • Current job: ATEX product design
Re: France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2020, 02:25:09 pm »
These things are everywhere. People dine outside in the middle of the winter. They offer more seats, so there is more profit, so they keep them operating. I dont blame them. The heater uses 1-2 KW, so for about 1 EUR cost , you can serve maybe extra 4-6 meals. Easy profit.
 

Offline TimFox

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8995
  • Country: us
  • Retired, now restoring antique test equipment
Re: France to ban heating/airconditioning the streets
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2020, 03:53:01 pm »
The Chicago "L" system has most of its platforms outdoors.  During the cold season, the platforms have semi-sheltered areas with overhead heat lamps, activated by a pushbutton for a timed interval.  Sometimes, near the lake, we get a cool snap in August, and it is amusing to watch the teenagers from suburbs that don't get the Weather Channel, dressed in shorts and T-shirts, pushing the button (despite the label that specifies the active months).
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf