Author Topic: Free Energy Scams and Fakes  (Read 40114 times)

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Offline Sigmoid

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2014, 05:11:09 pm »
I would be happy to be convince that there are not some of these conspiracies , I put the challenge to you , but with the hateful tone it would be highly unlikely - starting off on the wrong foot .
I personally try to avoid even the concept of believing in my own mind and try to use in its place understanding .
Much like science vs. believing I am open to new information to calibrate my thinking vs. believing and having the blinders on and being hateful of anything that does not conform to my view .

I'm also open to new information, however I tend to filter that information based on my knowledge of psychology, sociology, and the source of said "new information".
And well, if you think my tone was "hateful", I think you should re-examine your own psychology. The very definition of religion is a set of beliefs that are deeply integrated with one's self - thus attacking one's religion equates a deep and personal attack against the core of his being, that provokes not rational debate, but a kneejerk reflex of self-preservation. Are you sure you aren't invested in certain beliefs beyond rationality?

As for the existence or nonexistence of conspiracies, yes, our world is full of conspiracies, criminal and legal. People conspire to steal business from competitors, to drive prices up or down according to their needs, to rob a bank, or to win the next election.
Some of this conspiring is indeed damaging to the public good, and should be uncovered and the participants punished accordingly.
However, there is no great overarching conspiracy of some great new world order or secret "powers that be". As the NSA has recently demonstrated, humans are exceptionally bad at keeping secrets, and the larger a conspiracy is, the more likely it is for its cover to be blown. The idea that there is some kind of overarching conspiracy controlling all media, education, science and governments is more improbable than the existence of an old angry Jew who made humans out of clay, or the existence of a flying spaghetti monster.

As for stupidity, there is nothing new about it. What is new is that with the profit-orientation of commercial media, and the ultra-egalitarian thought of the last few decades, the stupidity of the masses, the subconscious of mankind, has bubbled up into the mainstream. This is horrible, and does have some masterminds behind it (such as programming directors of major media companies), but was driven by a mundane desire to sell more advertisements, put more (stupid) people in front of TV screens, and keep them there - instead of some kind of new world order fantasy.

As for the decline in the level of school education in the US, I think its main driving force was egalitarianism and anti-authoritarianism, which are cute, happy hippie ideologies, but sometime result in pretty bad decisions. (Eg. "school should be easier so as not to make anyone feel stupid", or "children with below-average abilities should also get a sense of success from school", or "let's not torture children with too much material to be learned, they need more time to play and have fun", etc.)

First, define "free energy". Perpetual (or nearly perpetual) motion is indeed possible (the Earth orbiting in space is one!), but you can't extract energy from it and still have perpetual motion.

If you define free energy as any energy that costs nothing in itself, you actually have alternative energy.

Yes, you can get "free energy" from the Sun or from geothermic sources... :D That's renewable energy for you. What people normally call "free energy" though is the scams that are promoted by misguided or downright criminal inventors and businesspeople, claiming to provide unlimited energy based on some kind of new esoteric theory that usually directly contradicts (and is proudly presented as contradicting) thermodynamic principles.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 05:29:14 pm by Sigmoid »
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2014, 05:26:04 pm »
What do you think of this patent?

http://www.google.com/patents/US6532740

I guess it is possible to generate energy with the coriolis effect, but how much and what size has this machine to be? And the construction in the patent looks complicated, would it be possible to use something simpler, like Foucault's pendulum?
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Offline Terabyte2007Topic starter

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2014, 05:33:29 pm »
What do you think of this patent?

http://www.google.com/patents/US6532740

I guess it is possible to generate energy with the coriolis effect, but how much and what size has this machine to be? And the construction in the patent looks complicated, would it be possible to use something simpler, like Foucault's pendulum?

Keep in mind, you can patent anything, it does not have to work.
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Offline Jon86

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2014, 05:38:15 pm »
The ones that make me laugh the most are the ones that harness 'wasted energy' from power lines and RF signals. I wonder if they'd notice and extra loading on the grid if someone put a few hundred thousand old fluorescents out by some pylons.
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Offline Terabyte2007Topic starter

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2014, 05:44:11 pm »
The ones that make me laugh the most are the ones that harness 'wasted energy' from power lines and RF signals. I wonder if they'd notice and extra loading on the grid if someone put a few hundred thousand old fluorescents out by some pylons.

Ha, good one. I don't think that it would do anything to the grid load because it's not drawing power from the circuit, The EMF is just merely exciting the atoms in the gas to produce light. Might be cool to see something like that though! :)
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Offline KD0CAC John

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2014, 05:53:55 pm »
Sigmoid , my impression is that you are reading much more into what I am saying , your studies should make you aware that with limited knowledge of an individual and having a " knee-jurk " response to a statement in a sentence or paragraph and assuming [ remember the acronym ] .
That is very problematic in this type of interaction , where there is a lack of all the other communication functions like sight or body language , instant response / replies etc.
I agree with a portion of your statements , but then you seem to read much from your own mind to what I was saying and inferring .
As far as conspiracies , I do not have the idea of one , or there is a domination from one source - I think that comes from the mono-thinking mind , which from my experiences seems to come from religion and to me again religion is a western concept .
Again this is the wrong type of medium for me to communicate a deep subject like these so I will limit as best as I can .
As far my view of religion , it is a man made concept to cover for the lack of understanding in times of old , and has lot s of good philosophies / stories but the power over others has corrupted it , so along with modern knowledge / understanding I left it behind a long time ago after many yrs. of searching .
If that is insulting to others , that is not the intent .
My idea of insulting is the we can only insult ourselves , either by our statements / actions or accepting other peoples ideas - therein lies the problem - taking others view as our own and taking offense if we do not like other peoples views .
Which ties into the idea of mono-theistic thinking has caused so many issues over time - do not take other perspectives as offense , threat or whatever , just thats who / what they are and you can chose to use there personalities as another perspective or worldview to learn from or not , its just an attempt to understand or not .
I think there can be a danger in trying to figure out crazy , you may go nuts :)
Hopefully back to finding many good energy sources .           
 

Online Marco

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2014, 06:00:50 pm »
I think the overunity scams are relatively benign compared to Rossi's E-CAT ... the hoaxers who realize that they can just use gullible (or corruptible) academics to get the media to treat them with respect do far more economic damage than the "everyone is trying to suppress us" overunity nuts.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2014, 06:37:24 pm »
The ones that make me laugh the most are the ones that harness 'wasted energy' from power lines and RF signals. I wonder if they'd notice and extra loading on the grid if someone put a few hundred thousand old fluorescents out by some pylons.

Ha, good one. I don't think that it would do anything to the grid load because it's not drawing power from the circuit, The EMF is just merely exciting the atoms in the gas to produce light. Might be cool to see something like that though! :)
It can make for a significant load near field (that's how RFID and NFC work by altering the Q of the transmitting coil), but not far field. But you can't get very much from the far field...
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Online IanB

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2014, 06:46:06 pm »
I don't think that it would do anything to the grid load because it's not drawing power from the circuit, The EMF is just merely exciting the atoms in the gas to produce light.

Consider this more carefully. The alternating electric field is doing work on the atoms in the gas to excite them and cause them to emit radiation. From the first law of thermodynamics the energy to do that work has to come from somewhere. In this case it is the power line. However minuscule it is, there is in fact an energy drain on the conductor when you hold a gas discharge tube nearby and make it light up. To make an electric lamp light up you do have to feed power into it, or you would be getting energy from nowhere--which is the subject of this thread ;)
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2014, 06:49:40 pm »
The ones that make me laugh the most are the ones that harness 'wasted energy' from power lines and RF signals. I wonder if they'd notice and extra loading on the grid if someone put a few hundred thousand old fluorescents out by some pylons.
This reminds me: a green / leftist political party from the NL coined a plan in their election campaign to put wind turbines on trains to recoup the energy!  :-DD
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Offline Terabyte2007Topic starter

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2014, 07:09:37 pm »
I don't think that it would do anything to the grid load because it's not drawing power from the circuit, The EMF is just merely exciting the atoms in the gas to produce light.

Consider this more carefully. The alternating electric field is doing work on the atoms in the gas to excite them and cause them to emit radiation. From the first law of thermodynamics the energy to do that work has to come from somewhere. In this case it is the power line. However minuscule it is, there is in fact an energy drain on the conductor when you hold a gas discharge tube nearby and make it light up. To make an electric lamp light up you do have to feed power into it, or you would be getting energy from nowhere--which is the subject of this thread ;)

I am not saying that the energy is coming from nowhere. It is, the power lines! What I am saying is that HV power lines are emitting a fairly high level of EMF which is enough to excite the atoms in a gas tube. This energy is there all the time and is part of the loss from transmission lines. What I was saying, is that whether you have 1 FL tube or 300,000 FL tubes all lined up under the wires it should not effect the grid anymore than 1. Lets say I had (theoretically) 10,000 mW/M^2, and this was the energy that existed all along the HV power lines in question. Adding more of less in the way of gas tubes under these power lines would utilize the energy available but would not pull more from the grid. If I am wrong, please explain.
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Offline lewis

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2014, 07:19:22 pm »
I don't think that it would do anything to the grid load because it's not drawing power from the circuit, The EMF is just merely exciting the atoms in the gas to produce light.

Consider this more carefully. The alternating electric field is doing work on the atoms in the gas to excite them and cause them to emit radiation. From the first law of thermodynamics the energy to do that work has to come from somewhere. In this case it is the power line. However minuscule it is, there is in fact an energy drain on the conductor when you hold a gas discharge tube nearby and make it light up. To make an electric lamp light up you do have to feed power into it, or you would be getting energy from nowhere--which is the subject of this thread ;)

I am not saying that the energy is coming from nowhere. It is, the power lines! What I am saying is that HV power lines are emitting a fairly high level of EMF which is enough to excite the atoms in a gas tube. This energy is there all the time and is part of the loss from transmission lines. What I was saying, is that whether you have 1 FL tube or 300,000 FL tubes all lined up under the wires it should not effect the grid anymore than 1. Lets say I had (theoretically) 10,000 mW/M^2, and this was the energy that existed all along the HV power lines in question. Adding more of less in the way of gas tubes under these power lines would utilize the energy available but would not pull more from the grid. If I am wrong, please explain.

Where does the energy go when it's not lighting up fluorescent tubes?
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Offline SeanB

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2014, 07:25:03 pm »
The energy is stored in the capacitance of the line to ground. The energy is returned to the system. Adding the lights will add to the voltage drop along the line and will show up in the power factor of the line. There have been some prosecutions for this under the "Theft of electricity" laws in most countries.
 

Offline Terabyte2007Topic starter

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2014, 07:29:31 pm »
I don't think that it would do anything to the grid load because it's not drawing power from the circuit, The EMF is just merely exciting the atoms in the gas to produce light.

Consider this more carefully. The alternating electric field is doing work on the atoms in the gas to excite them and cause them to emit radiation. From the first law of thermodynamics the energy to do that work has to come from somewhere. In this case it is the power line. However minuscule it is, there is in fact an energy drain on the conductor when you hold a gas discharge tube nearby and make it light up. To make an electric lamp light up you do have to feed power into it, or you would be getting energy from nowhere--which is the subject of this thread ;)

I am not saying that the energy is coming from nowhere. It is, the power lines! What I am saying is that HV power lines are emitting a fairly high level of EMF which is enough to excite the atoms in a gas tube. This energy is there all the time and is part of the loss from transmission lines. What I was saying, is that whether you have 1 FL tube or 300,000 FL tubes all lined up under the wires it should not effect the grid anymore than 1. Lets say I had (theoretically) 10,000 mW/M^2, and this was the energy that existed all along the HV power lines in question. Adding more of less in the way of gas tubes under these power lines would utilize the energy available but would not pull more from the grid. If I am wrong, please explain.

Where does the energy go when it's not lighting up fluorescent tubes?

It would be absorbed into the ground or other structures that might exist in close proximity. Think of it like a radio transmission but at much lower frequencies. If a radio transmission tower is broadcasting a signal at 50,000 watts, the energy that is being received by 1 radio or 1,000,000 radios does not change the wattage draw on the tower, right?
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Offline c4757p

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2014, 07:32:46 pm »
If a radio transmission tower is broadcasting a signal at 50,000 watts, the energy that is being received by 1 radio or 1,000,000 radios does not change the wattage draw on the tower, right?

My suspicion is that it actually does, by an immeasurably small amount. I mean, yes, most of it is absorbed into the ground and such, but a resonant receiver like a radio is going to absorb it slightly more efficiently than dirt.

The transmitter won't consume more power, but that's due to its non-feedback topology, not the fact that there is more being drawn. The output signal strength would be decreased very slightly instead of the transmitter increasing power to compensate. If you brought a trillion radios into the vicinity all tuned to the same frequency, I suspect transmit power would need to be increased.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 07:35:08 pm by c4757p »
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Offline Terabyte2007Topic starter

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2014, 07:43:06 pm »
The energy is stored in the capacitance of the line to ground. The energy is returned to the system. Adding the lights will add to the voltage drop along the line and will show up in the power factor of the line. There have been some prosecutions for this under the "Theft of electricity" laws in most countries.

Would this theft be the result of induction or physical access into the grid? I understand that their is a return through the ground, but I did'n't think it would be all that noticeable on with the grid monitoring systems unless it was considerable.
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Offline KD0CAC John

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2014, 07:53:44 pm »
As far as the radio waves , my ham radio SWAG - scientific wild ass guess .
Once the radio wave is transmitted , it exists in space / atmosphere , the makeup of the atmosphere at the moment of transmission is called propagation or is the resistive load that the power at the transmitter is trying overcome .
The power applied is determined by the desired performance of the operator .
In ham radio there are 2 extremes QRP - 5 watts or less and then max allowed depending on mode , band and rules of the origination of signal .
In QRP using mode CW - morse code , and good propagation and the correct band , ham radio goes around the world and is not so strong that it is going to interfere much .
With broadcast , they are on a set frequency within a set band - AM , FM etc. and there intent is to reach a large number so they are allowed huge power .
Receiving has no affect on transmission at all .
 
     
 

Offline Zbig

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2014, 07:57:55 pm »
My workshop aircon unit uses 1.6kW of electricity to produce 5.5kW of heat. Stick a load of efficient thermocouples in series between the hot and cold bits of the heat pump and BAM! Free electricity. Easy.

Kickstarter anyone?

Funny that, I actually heard a friend of a friend considering that as a viable basis for perpetual motion machine design after "discovering" the very same thing while reading his aircon unit's user manual. Only he wasn't joking...  :palm:
 

Online IanB

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2014, 07:59:59 pm »
I am not saying that the energy is coming from nowhere. It is, the power lines! What I am saying is that HV power lines are emitting a fairly high level of EMF which is enough to excite the atoms in a gas tube. This energy is there all the time and is part of the loss from transmission lines.

There is a certain loss from power lines due to various factors, but if you make the power line do work by lighting up a bulb the loss will be increased.

The power line forms a capacitor to the ground with air being the dielectric material. As you know a perfect capacitor in an AC circuit consumes no power. It is only when the capacitor is imperfect (when it has a resistive component, an equivalent series resistance, ESR) that it then has power losses.

Placing a fluorescent tube in the electric field minutely increases the ESR of the line-to-ground capacitor and therefore minutely increases the power losses.

Note here we are not considering electromagnetic radiation, we are considering an alternating electric field between the "plates" of a capacitor. A power line does not "emit" a field, it creates a field. It would "emit" radiation, or EMR, but at such a low frequency the emission of radiation is of extraordinarily low power. Not enough to light a bulb.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2014, 08:29:26 pm »
Funny that, I actually heard a friend of a friend considering that as a viable basis for perpetual motion machine design after "discovering" the very same thing while reading his aircon unit's user manual. Only he wasn't joking...  :palm:
In the US, HVAC equipment is rated in BTU/hr or tons, so as not to confuse the average consumer.
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Offline Terabyte2007Topic starter

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2014, 08:50:12 pm »
I am not saying that the energy is coming from nowhere. It is, the power lines! What I am saying is that HV power lines are emitting a fairly high level of EMF which is enough to excite the atoms in a gas tube. This energy is there all the time and is part of the loss from transmission lines.

There is a certain loss from power lines due to various factors, but if you make the power line do work by lighting up a bulb the loss will be increased.

The power line forms a capacitor to the ground with air being the dielectric material. As you know a perfect capacitor in an AC circuit consumes no power. It is only when the capacitor is imperfect (when it has a resistive component, an equivalent series resistance, ESR) that it then has power losses.

Placing a fluorescent tube in the electric field minutely increases the ESR of the line-to-ground capacitor and therefore minutely increases the power losses.

Note here we are not considering electromagnetic radiation, we are considering an alternating electric field between the "plates" of a capacitor. A power line does not "emit" a field, it creates a field. It would "emit" radiation, or EMR, but at such a low frequency the emission of radiation is of extraordinarily low power. Not enough to light a bulb.

Yes, you are correct. I did not take into consideration the electric field in my prior post. I was focused on the radiated energy rather than the capacitively coupled electric field to ground. I would guess if you were to place enough bulbs in the field it would change the ESR but the question is how many would it take to set off alarms on the grid monitoring station?

Good answer btw. :)
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Offline Zbig

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2014, 08:51:51 pm »
In the US, HVAC equipment is rated in BTU/hr or tons, so as not to confuse the average consumer.

That makes sense. But to this day I wonder what weird combination of smart-assery, arrogance and ignorance does it take to get you into even considering for a briefest of moments that the smart guys who designed it, measured it and then put the two figures next to each other in the freakin' spec sheet, somehow "overlooked" the fact that they accidentally designed a free energy device and now all it takes for you to claim the eternal fame and profit is to connect output to the input. Now I just cannot take anything this guy says seriously.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2014, 05:04:47 am »
It might not be measurable easily but the mere act of actively using the power without having either a connection or a meter is what is used in the charge. This has been used for people using a phone to make calls that were not authorised, or even for charging a person who rented a shed without power who turned on the light inside.
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2014, 05:29:25 am »
I've been hearing a lot about Thorium reactors being the next big thing. I'm likely to believe that they are a real possibility because I've even seen Bill Gates talking about them, apparently they were working on them in the 1970s but the Watergate scandal happened and they lost their funding.


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Offline Rerouter

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2014, 06:44:12 am »
If you really want some free to you power, take a clamp meter to your ground stake, mine currently has 13A flowing in to it, meaning one of my neighbors neutrals have gone open circuit, however if i where to put this through a rectifier and a boost converter i am quite sure i could get at least 100W out of it before it started adding enough of a voltage drop to make him get it investigated,
 


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