Author Topic: Free speech?  (Read 22258 times)

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Offline GK

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Free speech?
« on: September 24, 2012, 01:49:33 pm »
One of the few sane commentaries I’ve read on the recent obscene fiasco over that dumb Youtube video.

http://www.aei.org/article/foreign-and-defense-policy/regional/middle-east-and-north-africa/the-last-gasp-of-islamic-hate/
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Offline PeterG

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2012, 02:24:50 pm »
About time someone called it as it really is.

Regards
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Offline GeoffS

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2012, 02:27:19 pm »
AEI, not exactly an impartial source.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2012, 03:19:58 pm »
A religion that cannot stand scrutiny or criticism is surely very weak at its core. All the demonstrators against that film are in themselves poorly educated even some of the mullahs ore poorly educated outside of the Qumran and therefore have a rather shaded view of the world and are easily led by others who have an ulterior motive for their pontification's. The only sure cure for the world problems is education,education,education. This is of course why a lot of Islamic organizations and states wont allow girls to go to school and attack any school that dares to teach any thing other than the Qumran, when you consider that a lot of science is based on what was discovered by the Muslim world hundreds of years ago and the present state of affairs, it makes one wonder as to what has gone wrong with the interpretation of the Qumran over the past few century's, after all at one time they were the enlightened ones during the European dark ages.   
 

Offline poptones

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2012, 06:22:35 pm »
There's no reason to be islamaphobic about this. The US has plenty of great examples of this very same behavior: Texas requiring disclaimers about evolution, the never ending attempts to put prayer back in public schools, the fact that, in some surveys, as many as a third of our citizens believe in angels and nearly a quarter believe in spells and witchcraft...
 

Offline Neilm

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2012, 07:49:15 pm »
as many as a third of our citizens believe in angels and nearly a quarter believe in spells and witchcraft...

I must say I do believe in magic. Specifically Black Magic. Even more specifically, anything to do with EMC and or RF design.  :)

Neil
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2012, 11:39:24 pm »
A religion that cannot stand scrutiny or criticism is surely very weak at its core. All the demonstrators against that film are in themselves poorly educated even some of the mullahs ore poorly educated outside of the Qumran and therefore have a rather shaded view of the world and are easily led by others who have an ulterior motive for their pontification's. The only sure cure for the world problems is education,education,education. This is of course why a lot of Islamic organizations and states wont allow girls to go to school and attack any school that dares to teach any thing other than the Qumran, when you consider that a lot of science is based on what was discovered by the Muslim world hundreds of years ago and the present state of affairs, it makes one wonder as to what has gone wrong with the interpretation of the Qumran over the past few century's, after all at one time they were the enlightened ones during the European dark ages.   

The greatest advancement in our modern civilisation has been education and equal rights for women.
The few remaining countries and cultures that don't have either are in their death throws.

What has gone wrong? It's a classic power struggle. Those in power want to remain that way, and they are smart enough to know that lack of free thinking education and keeping half the population (women) under fear, that they are able to cling onto power. Their holy book and the fear of god is the classic way to do it. It won't last, they are doomed to failure.

Dave.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2012, 11:49:20 pm »
There's no reason to be islamaphobic about this. The US has plenty of great examples of this very same behaviour

For sure, but far from the same violent extent.
In the US (and other free democratised western countries) you can just walk away from that crap, and be in the vast majority and not suffer any violence, threats, or much if any social outcasting. You can't do that in the oppressive islamic countries, where the penalty for apostasy for example, is quite often, death. And where women do not have equal rights.

Dave.
 

Offline bullet308

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2012, 12:48:46 am »
The modern world, modern jobs, modern technology, virtually everything modern as opposed to things ancient, serves to elevate women, to reduce their shortcomings in relation to men, and highlight their strengths.

And if you think your civilization can be a player in this world with half your brains (okay, perhaps a bit more) tied behind your back...

You. Are. Wrong.

Sorry about that.
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Offline poptones

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2012, 01:01:59 am »
In the US (and other free democratised western countries) you can just walk away from that crap, and be in the vast majority and not suffer any violence, threats, or much if any social outcasting.

Sure... right up until the time when the population has become so stupid they don't even understand the words to the Constitution much less their meaning. I have two nephews who FLUNKED frakking kindergarten because their dumbass parents (who I love, but sometimes my bro's a dumbass) won't even sit and read with them so they're 7 years old before they even grasp the ABCs. I've seen my niece doing science projects with nails and wire and batteries in HIGH SCHOOL that I remember doing in third grade! The public schools teach kids to be good consumers, not to be thinkers. If you have money and can afford private school you can afford to give your kids a decent education so they can become "leaders" of the sheep. And one of the most effective means of leading those sheep, proven through thousands of years of history, is religion.
 

Offline poptones

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2012, 08:21:57 am »
 

Offline Rick

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2012, 10:03:51 am »
As I am not knowledgable enough to rant about technical stuff (actually I learn from you guys) let me rant about this topic:)
Actually the West likes Muslims to stay ignorant and follow their Coran so that the westerners can do their business and suck their oil while the "clothheads" are worshipping. Now some "more or less" smart people try to modernize their country but then they get carpet-bombed under the pretext that they are dictators and have (non existing) weapons of mass destruction, the latest example of which is Asad of Syria. I know from my own country that radicalism and fundamentalism in the Muslim world everywhere is supported by USA, this is sad but this is true. Because it is very convenient to have extremists in power, this allows you to militarily intervene and seize a country. France is going to do that in Mali where fundamentalists cause destruction. Afganistan was a more or less modern country where women could live a more or less modern life in 1960's. Look at where they are now.  As for the admin you should not have much hope. He does not hide his political opinion, so does the owner of this website. I think it is "take it or leave it". Another proof that free speech and democracy are just words and the western type democracy is just bullshit.
By the way the Jewish religion if applied strictly, is as restricting as Islam (regarding the rights of women, etc.). Look at the orthodox Jews in Israel but from there you cannot say the rest of the Jews are bigots can you?

Oh, I remember Martine Scorsese had a movie named "The Last Temptation of Christ" in 1980's; as soon as it came out in France there were bomb threats and actual bombs were placed in cinemas. It did not last long. I wanted to watch it but they removed it from cinemas.

One should remember the attacks on clinics in USA which practice abortion. And in one case I think even a person (a doctor) was murdered.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 04:01:42 pm by Rick »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2012, 10:11:13 am »
is this thread is of any usefull information? or exactly what the OP wants?
if there is really a "freedom of speech" why afai remember, there are 2 guys from here get banned? for saying insulting words? democracy? why people got offended? think!
its a clear crossing line that prophet cannot be portrayed, doing so is an insult, even more portraying with bad image. and whats the point of making the movie? can anyone provide me a link?

Maybe they thought it was a funny? Maybe they thought it was creative in some way? Maybe they thought it was story telling? Or maybe they just did it piss some people off.
But it doesn't matter, the point is that they should be free to do it without the threat of being murdered for it, or the life long scaring of knowing that it has caused the deaths of many people due to the riots etc.

The biggest problem with Islam is that muslims (particularly in the stricter countries) get horribly offended at almost everything that is in any way to perceived to involve their religion or the way they way want to do things. And unfortunately often that results in the violence we have seen. And it seems that the more slack we western cultures cut them in terms of appeasement, the more they want to try and muscle into modern western lifestyle even further in terms of wanting to implement their "sharia law" and special rights etc.
All of the various christian religions have learnt to tolerate criticism, mocking, satire, insults etc, and you rarely if ever do you hear of any riots, death threats, actual deaths etc due to someone "insulting" their religion in their view. That sort of stuff died out hundreds of years ago, and rightly so.

So sorry, the film producers have every right to do what they did, and have every right to not have death threats because it, nor have anyone else killed because it, nor have riots because it. To think otherwise is just plan stupid and medieval. Or to think that no one should "insult" the muslims in any way is just untenable.
The fundamental right of free speech (and tolerance of it) is the backbone of modern western civilisation and human rights, and is the only way the human race can progress as a civilised society.
There is no way the muslim culture can progress unless they accept this and stop being offended at everything.
What we are seeing now is the death throws of a religious culture that is starting to learn that it cannot continue in the modern world with it's way of thinking.

Dave.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2012, 11:27:57 am »
Sorry Mechatrommer, but I really don't understand what you are saying at all (the language gap?), so I'm not going to bother debating it. I've said what I want to say on the topic.
Not that I want to get another 1000 post religious thread going again anyway.

Dave.
 

Offline baljemmett

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2012, 12:20:18 pm »
if there is really a "freedom of speech" why afai remember, there are 2 guys from here get banned? for saying insulting words? democracy? why people got offended? think!
its a clear crossing line that prophet cannot be portrayed, doing so is an insult, even more portraying with bad image.

Hang on.  It's a 'clear crossing line' and an 'insult' to portray your prophet, so therefore it's OK to murder people who didn't actually do anything apart from represent the country of someone who offended you and just call them 'collateral damage'?  And you have the bare-faced cheek to lecture people on 'freedom of speech'?

Quote
why dont you just simply ignore that religion and do with your own business? you got insulted? why? have you learn history? who strike first?

Wise advice.  Perhaps it would behoove the "oh no somebody doesn't like my religion I'd better kill them" crowd to follow it, too.
 

Offline GK

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2012, 02:06:09 pm »
Anyone see Dateline this evening?

http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/about/id/601553/n/The-Taliban-s-War-on-Women

The video of the young woman being executed in front of a few dozen men laughing and shouting “Allah is Great!” has gone viral.

Where is the commensurate Muslim outrage, angst and mass protest against that abuse of their faith? The hypocrisy of “moderate” Muslims overblowing insensitivities of the West when this kind of culturally-entrenched atrocity and medievalism is common place in some of their homelands is utterly gob smacking.


« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 02:13:12 pm by GK »
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Offline G7PSK

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2012, 02:57:36 pm »
The real story behind all of this violence in the middle east lies with the cold war. It started with the British not being able to pay for building the Aswan dam, so the Egyptians went to the Russians to help build it, the Russians were all to pleased to help as they knew it would stuff a rat up the US backside. The US responded by pouring arms into the nearest state they could find that would accept them, Israel. the Russians upped the anti by pouring arms int as many Arab states that would take them and then the KGB set about fomenting trouble it did not take a lot as whatever the Arab's were egged into doing the Israelis would always respond ten fold.   
 

Offline ToBeFrank

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2012, 03:49:17 pm »
what archaic laws?

This is a good example...

public stoning is only for a married guy or married woman having sex with other woman or guy. single man or woman who did it get public canning. and one important criteria to accuse the adulterer for eligible to be stoned is we must have two 'wise' male witness seeing the genital parts going in and out during the sex intercourse, life view! how easy can that be? ;) without the 2 witness, the defendant will go through proceeding just like your normal court. only if found guilty without reasonable doubt then the stoning or canning is.
 

Offline Sionyn

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2012, 06:34:16 pm »
Pakistan PM you know the guy that believes in make-believe magic-man behind his faith that he uses to enable his hatred has decided what the world really need is international blasphemy laws..... dave would be screwed :P

in other news the pope approves condoms

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2012%5C09%5C23%5Cstory_23-9-2012_pg7_2   
eecs guy
 

Offline poptones

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2012, 08:19:08 pm »
Ah, now I see what's going on. Methinks someone here tried a holy speil and had his thread deleted. Let me address this on the issue of free speech...

As for the admin you should not have much hope. He does not hide his political opinion, so does the owner of this website. I think it is "take it or leave it". Another proof that free speech and democracy are just words and the western type democracy is just bullshit.

Whose forum is this? Do you pay the hosting bill, or generate the userbase? I certainly don't.

He who pays the bill gets to pick the speech. That's how it works. If you want to start a holy crusade you can get free reliable cloud hosting for a year at amazon, go for it. The talking heads on FOX don't get to spew any nonsense they like, only the nonsense their boss approves, and that's the way it is everywhere. No one is stopping Glenn Beck from changing his message and taking it to NBC or CNN, and no one is stopping you from saying what you want to say... just not here.

And with that, I'm outta here.
 

Offline ToBeFrank

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2012, 09:47:10 pm »
what archaic laws?

Here is another example...

we have religion department, at most they knock on some hotel's door, when they see a cute couple inside, they ask for marriage cert, if no they ask them to marry, otherwise the couple have to pay some money (penalty)
 

Offline bullet308

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2012, 02:00:14 am »
This is a singularly depressing thread. Really, listening to one more-or-less moderate Muslim having to defend his faith in the face of a sustained onslaught of not-quite-culturally-literate westerners is sad, almost as sad as some of the not-so-moderate things he feels he has to defend in the process. :-(

Islam is spread across the entire world and comes in many different flavors and with many different interpretations, just like <shock!> Christianity does. Some of them manage to never get around to the whole treating-women-like-shit thing. Some do, some don't. Well, what do you know?

Islam has everything built into it you need to live a virtuous and decent life, or one of depravity and violence, just like <shock!> Christianity does. Read some of that shit in the OT and tell me about a loving God. Go ahead. I dare you. Then read to me from Revelation and ditto. Pffft....

The problems that Islam has with nutjob extremest followers is very similar <shock!> to the one that Christianity and Judaisim has. When I bought my first full case of rifle ammo (a thousand rounds of 7.62 NATO ball, Australian production, oddly enough...), it was with the idea in mind of Gerry Fallwells Chrisitan Soldiers coming to convert me at bayonet point. Well, I was going to take quite a few of them with me, but as it turned out, I'm still here and he's dead. Fuck him.

The problems that Islam has with women predates the arrival of the prophet Mohamed PBUH and are not the sort of thing that Mohamed would have ever condoned, Hey, you want to know another prophet that thought that women were being shit on unfairly and thought pretty well of women (even whores!) and then his followers <shock!> shit all over them anyway? Lets just say he was a carpenter by trade and hailed from a place called Nazarea... sound familiar?

Sad. And now, I will return to my bottle of red wine and bowl of chicken and rice stew, and boozily contemplate the nature of humanity some more...

And allow me to add...the rights that protect the ability of boneheads to make derogatory Islamophobic videos ARE THE VERY SAME RIGHTS that protects the ability of Muslims to be openly Muslim in a predominantly Christian country. Sorry. Its a package deal.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 02:09:53 am by bullet308 »
>>>BULLET>>>
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2012, 04:45:17 am »
if i want to free speech about islam? i'll go to country that allows islam, if i go to UK or USA, probably i'll get banned and then i'll go back to my country and say fuck of UK and USA.

I have to chime back in here, I can't help myself.
WOW, that is the most stunningly ignorant statement I've heard in a long time!

Do you really think you have "freedom of speech" against (because that's what free speech is!, against, not just for) islam in any of the islamic ruled countries? Really?
Even in your own country, following any "form" of islam other than "sunni" is illegal!
It is also illegal to convert a muslim, or for a muslim to convert to another faith! (or presumably lose their faith?)
And that's in a relatively progressive majority muslim country!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Malaysia

Dave.
 

Offline PeterG

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2012, 05:13:05 am »

As an Australian i live by the "Fair Go" philosophy where all Australian have equal rites. However, recent events have forced me to rethink this when it comes to the Muslims here. From my point of view the riots in Sydney are as far from Australian as one can get. There is no place for these actions in Australia, not now, not ever. 

After these actions, i now have the belief that here in Australia you ether get along or get out. Riots over trivial videos are not an acceptable behaviour from ANY religion/race/group.


Regards

Just an Aussie Spin on this mess.
Testing one two three...
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Free speech?
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2012, 05:29:45 am »
As an Australian i live by the "Fair Go" philosophy where all Australian have equal rites. However, recent events have forced me to rethink this when it comes to the Muslims here. From my point of view the riots in Sydney are as far from Australian as one can get. There is no place for these actions in Australia, not now, not ever. 

After these actions, i now have the belief that here in Australia you ether get along or get out. Riots over trivial videos are not an acceptable behaviour from ANY religion/race/group.

IMO they have every right to protest (except the violence part, and the death threats), and their right to protest like that should be protected and supported. I don't care if you are muslim, neo-nazi or worship aliens, everyone should (and does in this country) have a basic fundamental right to make an absolute dick of yourself protesting anything you damn well want.
But you'll do it peacefully and not make death threats or use or threaten violence. Riots, violence, and death threats are not part of civilised Australian society.
And we have laws against that. So those who want to do that shit, I hope you go to jail, or better yet, leave, permanently.
How the parent of that kid that held up the beheading sign was not charged with something like child abuse is beyond me.

Dave.
 


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