Freetronics vs Jaycar (IP & copyright issues)

[vk3yedotcom]

This video, by Jon Oxer of Freetronics, could be worth watching for those interested in intellectual property, copyright and what can happen if you're too successful at developing a product

[DerekG]

This is not a good indictment on Jaycar Electronics.

Pretty shabby really.

The owner of Jaycar (Gary Johnston) has been embroiled in a few other sordid activities.

You can read about a couple of these on Wikipedia:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaycar

[Kean]

I know this is just business, but it is still bloody awful behaviour - to the extreme!  I guess it is the price you pay as part of the open source movement.

I'm not sure if Australian copyright on published works is automatic like in the USA.  The Freetronics Getting Started Guide was published without any copyright notice, and that would possibly make any legal action difficult.

I'll be shopping with Altronics instead of Jaycar whenever I can now.  All the in-house Jaycar/TechBrands stuff is total rubbish anyway, so I pretty much only buy basic components there like switches and connectors.

I'm going to place an order with Freetronics right now to show some support, even though I have no real need for anything.

[jonoxer]

Kean, you're a champ :-)

Don't feel obligated to place an order just to support Freetronics, but I certainly appreciate the sentiment. And if you do place an order, I'll make sure you get a bonus of some kind.

[Kean]

No worries Jon.  As a small business owner myself, I always like to support guys like you and Little Bird Electronics.
You produce some very useful stuff for prototyping, and also for the occasional gift for friends and relatives.

[Barryg41]

Superhouse!

One of my top five Youtube content providers!

Thanks Jon 

[Muttley Snickers]

This in my view is extremely low and dispays poor form on the part of Jaycar, I actually picked up and asked about this particular kit whilst in one of their stores recently and was then directed to a different dunny duino product altogether hanging on the rack, at that point I lost interest and told them to never mind and I will stick with my original maximite instead.

I've had a trade account with Altronics since day dot and haven't used it for ages but that is about to change, for my line they have a much better variety than RPG or Jaycar and the later is nothing more than the handy devil we know, I'm done and dusted with them and not just for this particular episode, currently sharpening the scissors for the Jaycar trade card that I have had since I was a puppy.   

[sleemanj]

Wow that's pretty low for an Au/NZ company, you expect that bevahiour from an aliexpress seller or whatever, goes with the territory, but a local doing it is just plain rude.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Copyright on printed works is pretty well established - if the original contained a copyright notice then there would probbaly have a pretty good case to   go for them for infringement on the booklet, however the viability of that would depend on the logistics and entry cost of your legal system.

[MarkB]

I've just watched your YouTube article, Jon and found myself becoming angrier by the second!

I have patronised Jaycar since Dick Smith stores (the ones with Sales Assistants who knew what a BNC connector looked like!) disappeared into the mists of folklore.

However Jaycar might justify their actions, or some people suggest "All's fair in Love and Electronics Component Retailing", this is pretty grubby dealing by a company I expected (unrealistically, it seems) better of. 
Surely if they wanted to produce a similar item, they could have done so in a much fairer manner.
After all, they already have a virtual monopoly in the component stakes.

I was quite unfamiliar with Freetronics, but I shall make sure your brand is now known at our local radio club.

Keep up the good work, regards from the Mornington Peninsula.

[EEVblog]

I moved this to general chat.

What a bunch of duchebags Jaycar are 

[EEVblog]

Copyright on printed works is pretty well established - if the original contained a copyright notice then there would probbaly have a pretty good case to   go for them for infringement on the booklet, however the viability of that would depend on the logistics and entry cost of your legal system.

As Jon explained, it's just not worth it financially or time/sanity wise. Much more effective and zero cost to put pressure on them socially.

[EEVblog]

I'm not sure if Australian copyright on published works is automatic like in the USA.  The Freetronics Getting Started Guide was published without any copyright notice, and that would possibly make any legal action difficult.

It does't matter, copyright is automatic on all written work.
And:
http://www.freetronics.com.au/pages/terms-conditions#.WATYMeB96M8

[nctnico]

I moved this to general chat.

What a bunch of duchebags Jaycar are 

I'm not so sure... In the beginning of the video Jon says there is an Arduino COMPATIBLE board in his kit. This would imply he isn't selling original Arduinos either.

I agree about the copyright on the book and box. There is definitely an infringement so at least a cease & desist letter is in order but in the long run the expenses probably don't justify the cause. Sad but true and something they are probably well aware of at Jaycar.

[EEVblog]

I'm not so sure... In the beginning of the video Jon says there is an Arduino COMPATIBLE board in his kit. This would imply he isn't selling original Arduinos either.

He's not complaining about the Arduino.

[AlfBaz]

I was brought up on the notion that copying was bad. If you attempted it in school you'd get a fail and some detention.
Who'd of thunk the copycats where the ones to have better employment opportunities than someone who studies and comes up with their own ideas

To make matters worse, not only is jaycar "ripping off" a local business, they're ripping off somebody they were/are doing business with!

It's a crying shame that getting a distribution deal for a product you invested in is used as a trial by a distributor only to have that deal cancelled if it does well and have your product cloned

[station240]

Bad Jaycar, bad.
Their shitty pricing is the usual reason I don't buy stuff there, but this really stinks.

To clone a product you actually resell anyway, that's just nuts.
I bet they just sent it to China and got it copied and mass produced, no one else would be stupid enough to leave the window cutout the same.

Methinks Dave should pay another visit to the Jaycar warehouse, annoy them in person

[BurtyB]

I'm not so sure... In the beginning of the video Jon says there is an Arduino COMPATIBLE board in his kit. This would imply he isn't selling original Arduinos either.

He's not complaining about the Arduino.

I think the point nctnico is trying to make is on one side Freetronics have a clone of the open source Arduino in their kit and on the other Freetronics are sad Jaycar cloned their kit with "open source hardware" printed on the box (which depending on how you interpret OSH includes documentation).

[Cerebus]

Copyright on printed works is pretty well established - if the original contained a copyright notice then there would probbaly have a pretty good case to   go for them for infringement on the booklet, however the viability of that would depend on the logistics and entry cost of your legal system.

Australia has been a Berne Convention member since 1928. Under the Berne Convention there is no need for a copyright notice, copyright subsists in a work as soon as it is created.

[vk3yedotcom]

A flurry of visitor posts highlighting this on the Jaycar Facebook page. Will be interesting to see if they respond. 

  https://www.facebook.com/jaycarelectronics/

[aargee]

Jaycar dodgy-ness, you could see it happening with Gary Johnson copying most of the Freetronics modules, labelling them as "duinotech", then jacking the price up on Freetronics gear to drive people to the house brand. Bastards.

I doubt you could get the ABC program, The Checkout, interested as this is too specialised.


As far as I'm concerned, Jaycar is now a display room for China: go to Jaycar, see something interesting (if you're really lucky) and order it from China on eBay.

[nctnico]

I'm not so sure... In the beginning of the video Jon says there is an Arduino COMPATIBLE board in his kit. This would imply he isn't selling original Arduinos either.

He's not complaining about the Arduino.

I think the point nctnico is trying to make is on one side Freetronics have a clone of the open source Arduino in their kit and on the other Freetronics are sad Jaycar cloned their kit with "open source hardware" printed on the box (which depending on how you interpret OSH includes documentation).

You got my point indeed. And after giving it some more thought the copyright issues seem hairy to me. After all releasing something into the public domain for anyone to do as they please kind off clashes with copyright which is there to prevent people from doing whatever they want which your intellectual property.

IMHO in the end it is the consumer who wins. Jaycar obviously has much deeper pockets and better connections to buy the kits in bulk at a lower price making the kits available/affordable to/for more people. Unfortunately Freetronics won't get any money or acknowledgement for their work which kind of sucks for them. But in a way it is like many great ideas: you need someone to turn them into a successfull commercial product otherwise an idea is worth less than the paper is has been written on.

[@rt]

I swear I know that guy from somewhere. Not personally, but he must have made other videos.

[MK14]

Kean, you're a champ :-)

Don't feel obligated to place an order just to support Freetronics, but I certainly appreciate the sentiment. And if you do place an order, I'll make sure you get a bonus of some kind.

I feel sorry for you. They should NOT have stolen your ideas/copyright like that. They should have at least created their own version, and written their own manuals etc.

I noticed that your website still seems to promote Jaycar, as your (resellers) ...

We have some great resellers carrying stock of our Arduino-related products, so please check them out and give them your support.

http://www.freetronics.com.au/pages/freetronics-resellers#.WAV6SvkrKUk

That is especially cheeky of them (to copy your product instead of buying it from you). Since you were (presumably) using them to sell some of your stuff.

[Mr.B]

That is just disgusting...
I will never purchase another thing from Jaycar.