Author Topic: French Schuko is superior  (Read 2955 times)

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Online soldarTopic starter

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2024, 04:12:11 pm »
I have marked the live side on many of the outlets I use especially on my workbench.

Also, some of the extension cords I have marked the live at both ends.  It is useful, not only for mains AC but also for other applications with DC or where I am only using one conductor.

I am still convinced the Earth contact with the French system is much more reliable and better. I would bet the resistance of the contact is always lower with the French system; lower when new and with the difference increasing with time, use, dirt, etc.  I would be very surprised if it turned out to be the other way around.
Why would you do this? Everything with that cable is either double insulated or earthed metal enclosure.
And why would you ever place DC into this socket?
The issue is not with the plug, it's between the keyboard and the chair.
it seems you have totally misinterpreted my post because you are responding to things I did not say or imply.
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2024, 04:14:11 pm »
I have marked the live side on many of the outlets I use especially on my workbench.

Also, some of the extension cords I have marked the live at both ends.  It is useful, not only for mains AC but also for other applications with DC or where I am only using one conductor.

I am still convinced the Earth contact with the French system is much more reliable and better. I would bet the resistance of the contact is always lower with the French system; lower when new and with the difference increasing with time, use, dirt, etc.  I would be very surprised if it turned out to be the other way around.
Why would you do this? Everything with that cable is either double insulated or earthed metal enclosure.
And why would you ever place DC into this socket?
The issue is not with the plug, it's between the keyboard and the chair.
it seems you have totally misinterpreted my post because you are responding to things I did not say or imply.
Must be a language problem.
But then there is a picture...
 

Offline m k

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2024, 05:40:19 pm »
It's the primary side and a scope.
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Online Haenk

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2024, 06:45:56 pm »
Once a dairy barn had a washing machine.
Then an electrician felt some tinglings and asked matron how the machine had worked.

We had that in a danish feriehuset. I seems they had some older wiring, only earthing for wet areas, no earthing for everywhere else. Of couse genious house owner used an extension cord "no gound" to "ground" (what a great invention to kill yourself), since that was required for the washing machine. So once I touched the metal casing and felt a slight tingling, my wife was instructed to pull the plug before touching it, and only use a platic wiper to operate the buttons.
That tingling likely was only a leaking cap and no earth fault, but still.

Oh: And I never had a Schuko failed on me, ever. The earthing will *not* get bent, even if you try. There is only one possible failure: Very old plugs were made of Bakelit, which might break if dropped or mechanically stressed.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 06:49:17 pm by Haenk »
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2024, 11:11:31 pm »

AFAIK, the German VDE norms don't specify any rule for the polarity of the Schuko socket.


That is correct, but it is recommended that phase is left and neutral is right
I also learned that, an old electrician told me in the 90s that this is because of kids.
They tend to put metal nails, wires, paperclips etc in the hole and the majority is right handed and puts it default in the right hole.
Could be bullshit but it seemed plausible to me back in the day before RCDs were mandatory, too bad for lefties.

Personally I think the Shuko from 1925 and the sorts are outdated.
I am using as much Wieland GST18i3 as possible, 20A instead of 16A , polarized , anti pull clip for one time connections like the coffeemaker, dishwasher etc.
Still can't convince the wife
 

Offline Rafiki

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2024, 10:21:58 am »

AFAIK, the German VDE norms don't specify any rule for the polarity of the Schuko socket.


That is correct, but it is recommended that phase is left and neutral is right
...
By whom? Some German internal clique or some international (or European at least) standardization community? Schuko isn't a German thing only.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2024, 01:23:21 pm »
By whom? Some German internal clique or some international (or European at least) standardization community? Schuko isn't a German thing only.
Indeed over 40 countries

 

Online langwadt

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2024, 02:18:49 pm »
Once a dairy barn had a washing machine.
Then an electrician felt some tinglings and asked matron how the machine had worked.

We had that in a danish feriehuset. I seems they had some older wiring, only earthing for wet areas, no earthing for everywhere else. Of couse genious house owner used an extension cord "no gound" to "ground" (what a great invention to kill yourself), since that was required for the washing machine. So once I touched the metal casing and felt a slight tingling, my wife was instructed to pull the plug before touching it, and only use a platic wiper to operate the buttons.
That tingling likely was only a leaking cap and no earth fault, but still.

Oh: And I never had a Schuko failed on me, ever. The earthing will *not* get bent, even if you try. There is only one possible failure: Very old plugs were made of Bakelit, which might break if dropped or mechanically stressed.

In Denmark the common problem is that appliances often come with a schuko plug, which will fit in a Danish socket but it doesn't connect earth without an adapter

 

Offline jitter

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2024, 08:01:14 pm »
In addition, there are plenty of installations that either have the earth pin not connected at all or (worse) tied to the neutral inside the outlet. So  :-//

I would definitely prefer PE to be tied to N over it to be left floating. In the end PE and N connect to the same earth anyway. And, there are some earthing systems that actually combine PE and N, e.g. the TN-C system.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2024, 08:05:38 pm by jitter »
 

Online Haenk

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2024, 12:22:27 pm »
I am using as much Wieland GST18i3 as possible, 20A instead of 16A , polarized , anti pull clip for one time connections like the coffeemaker, dishwasher etc.
Still can't convince the wife

I only pull those once every couple of years when the machine failed and needs repair/replacement. No reason to buy expensive Wieland stuff 8)
And: A Schuko plug does not come out easily, that usually requires some force. (The 2-prong-"Euro"-plug is another story though.)
 

Online soldarTopic starter

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2024, 01:09:37 pm »
I was just talking to a guy who works with electric tools outdoors and in very dusty construction sites and he was telling me he doesn't like how the metal strips in the Schuko plugs get covered and clogged with dust, dirt, etc. and need to be cleaned out.
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Online nctnico

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2024, 01:13:51 pm »
I was just talking to a guy who works with electric tools outdoors and in very dusty construction sites and he was telling me he doesn't like how the metal strips in the Schuko plugs get covered and clogged with dust, dirt, etc. and need to be cleaned out.
Sounds more like they should be using outlets with a cover (or fix the covers).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2024, 01:27:42 pm »
I would definitely prefer PE to be tied to N over it to be left floating. In the end PE and N connect to the same earth anyway. And, there are some earthing systems that actually combine PE and N, e.g. the TN-C system.

There is nothing to "prefer". If PE is "left floating" in a socket, is not just against code, it's a serious criminal offense; whoever did the installation should be investigated by the police. And, in all systems, PE is connected to N, the only question between the systems is exactly where. In old installations, it's well possible connecting PE and N together at the socket was completely legal, and normal during the time. Leaving PE unconnected never was legal. Because connecting N and PE together must be done with extreme care (risk of misidentification of N), it is understandable how connecting them together at socket has later become illegal, to minimize the number of places where this fatal wiring mistake can happen.

It's worth understanding though that where and how PE & N are connected is important for safety, so one must always treat N as live, and only PE as PE, and never assume otherwise.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2024, 01:33:02 pm by Siwastaja »
 
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Online soldarTopic starter

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2024, 01:28:01 pm »
Sounds more like they should be using outlets with a cover (or fix the covers).

I do not think the problem arises when it is plugged in but when the plug is just lying around in the dust.
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Offline jitter

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2024, 07:20:45 pm »
I would definitely prefer PE to be tied to N over it to be left floating. In the end PE and N connect to the same earth anyway. And, there are some earthing systems that actually combine PE and N, e.g. the TN-C system.

There is nothing to "prefer". If PE is "left floating" in a socket, is not just against code, it's a serious criminal offense; whoever did the installation should be investigated by the police. And, in all systems, PE is connected to N, the only question between the systems is exactly where. In old installations, it's well possible connecting PE and N together at the socket was completely legal, and normal during the time. Leaving PE unconnected never was legal. Because connecting N and PE together must be done with extreme care (risk of misidentification of N), it is understandable how connecting them together at socket has later become illegal, to minimize the number of places where this fatal wiring mistake can happen.

It's worth understanding though that where and how PE & N are connected is important for safety, so one must always treat N as live, and only PE as PE, and never assume otherwise.

The police may get involved when a death occurs due to electrocution but other than that, there's no supervision whatsoever on electrical installations. At least not in this country. There are lots of rules and regulations, but no enforcement.
Line and neutral must be treated as live, yes, but a break in a PE conductor would mean it too becomes live in a fault scenario. I recently found out by accident that the sockets in my kitchen had a severed earth connection in a junction box. This situation could have been around for 15 years or more, part of which I didn't even have RCD protection as the install was done in 1960 and back then they weren't required.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2024, 07:22:32 pm by jitter »
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2024, 08:26:40 pm »
I was just talking to a guy who works with electric tools outdoors and in very dusty construction sites and he was telling me he doesn't like how the metal strips in the Schuko plugs get covered and clogged with dust, dirt, etc. and need to be cleaned out.
He needs the blue industrial quality extension cord style Schukos like picture below.
Or even better switch to the IEC 60309 blue 2p+e 16A version:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60309
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2024, 08:44:55 pm »
Quote
Or even better switch to the IEC 60309 blue 2p+e 16A version:

if its on construction sites the ceeforms should  really be yellow,not blue
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2024, 09:12:28 pm »
Quote
Or even better switch to the IEC 60309 blue 2p+e 16A version:

if its on construction sites the ceeforms should  really be yellow,not blue
AFAIK that depends on the country voltage. See link above.
Quote
The colour of the housing indicates the type of power available. The primary distinction is by rated operating voltage, as follows:

 
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Offline themadhippy

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2024, 09:31:27 pm »
Quote
AFAIK that depends on the country voltage.
Its not a case of the countrys supply voltage but a case of using a 110V (55v to earth) supply on construction sites
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2024, 09:53:04 pm »
Quote
AFAIK that depends on the country voltage.
Its not a case of the countrys supply voltage but a case of using a 110V (55v to earth) supply on construction sites
In the UK then, we don't have those voltages in our country, nor in Germany.
That is what I mean with countrys voltage dependency.
On our construction sites it is almost always 3 phase 380V so red connectors and there are the exchange poles that take 3 times 1 phase of the three to a blue 230V connector.
 
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2024, 09:53:45 pm »
.  Doublepost error
« Last Edit: June 01, 2024, 08:24:01 am by Kjelt »
 

Offline Someone

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2024, 10:58:36 pm »
And, in all systems, PE is connected to N, the only question between the systems is exactly where.
IT (and in some interpretations TT, most electricians wouldn't consider an ill defined high impedance paths back through the dirt "connected") enters the chat:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system#IT_network
 

Offline jitter

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2024, 10:15:48 am »
In the IT-system ("isolé-terre"), there's no connection of the starpoint to earth at the transformer side. This means there's no current return path to the transformer and hence no current can flow back to it through the earth (other than caused by parasitic capacitance). Since the consumer side does have earth, earthed parts remain at earth potential even if there were a line to earth fault present. 

What a single line to earth fault does do is create mains earth referencing, and with it a current path. If you then were to touch one of the other two phases, you would get a shock and potentially a lethal current. This system is only used when a single isolation fault must not interrupt power supply and must be monitored by a system that detects line to earth faults.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2024, 10:19:58 am by jitter »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2024, 12:05:50 pm »
I was just talking to a guy who works with electric tools outdoors and in very dusty construction sites and he was telling me he doesn't like how the metal strips in the Schuko plugs get covered and clogged with dust, dirt, etc. and need to be cleaned out.
Sounds more like they should be using outlets with a cover (or fix the covers).

I was just talking to a guy who works with electric tools outdoors and in very dusty construction sites and he was telling me he doesn't like how the metal strips in the Schuko plugs get covered and clogged with dust, dirt, etc. and need to be cleaned out.
He needs the blue industrial quality extension cord style Schukos like picture below.
Or even better switch to the IEC 60309 blue 2p+e 16A version:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60309


Guys, guys… soldar said the strips in the plugs, not the receptacles, get dirty. So covered receptacles won’t help the situation described.
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2024, 12:15:39 pm »
Quote
soldar said the strips in the plugs, not the receptacles, get dirty. So covered receptacles won’t help the situation described.
covers wont,but the design of ceeforms make it less likely for the plugs  to get as bunged up with dirt
 


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