Author Topic: French Schuko is superior  (Read 3276 times)

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Offline soldarTopic starter

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French Schuko is superior
« on: May 24, 2024, 02:51:42 pm »
In Spain we use the German version of the Schuko plug and socket and I do not like the way the Earth connection is made, with tabs that sometimes bend and which do not give me confidence that they make good contact. I also do not like that it is not polarized and you can plug in both ways.

I was recently in France and there I saw the French version and in my estimation it is superior.

The photos are of a very nice design where a cover springs out when no plug is there and it retracts when pushed by the plug. It gives a nice, flush, appearance to the wall.

But I appreciate the earth pin which I trust better for contact and which is less prone to bending or misbehaving. Definitely superior to the German version.

Also, the Earth pin forces only one way to plug it in and so the power pins could be polarized although, as far as I was able to ascertain, this is not the case.

The Wikipedia graphic attached shows both the German and the French versions as polarized but, AFAIK, this is not so.

Still, it would be easy to always put the live on the right.

Because Schuko plugs are compatible with both the German and the French type sockets my preference would be for French sockets and polarized.
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Offline soldarTopic starter

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2024, 03:25:47 pm »
Well, it's happened again. I intended to post this in General Chat and it shows up in Beginners. It has happened to me before and I thought it was my mistake but this time I am quite sure I was in Chat so it might be something to do with my browser or something weird and it gets posted to beginners by default.

Anyway, Mods please move it at your discretion.
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Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2024, 03:52:04 pm »
I never had problems with the quality outlets I had in the Netherlands. These are based on the German version, with the earth pins on the side. Ten times better in quality then even the more expensive NF brands like Legrand.

Having the socket polarized only works if every body connects them in the right way, and I can assure that that is not the case. I have even seen once that a qualified French electrician had reversed the connection coming from the meter board. How he managed to accomplish that is a riddle, since the blue and red colors are distinct enough to notice the swap.  :palm:

Another thing is that it also does not work when you use these narrow non grounded plugs like on USB power adapters. You can plug them in either way. And it does not matter, because it is AC.

Furthermore, I have plugs that don't have the ground pin receptacle, so useless here in France.

Never seen the fancy push in types your picture shows. Wonder how many insertions they last before something blocks or breaks.

Conclusion, I do not agree with you.  >:D

Offline m k

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2024, 04:09:46 pm »
Old wall jack contacts can be quite black from inside.

You obviously check visually all insertions.
And do nut use damaged stuff.

But yes, Schuko can be improved.
On the other hand, UK plug is pretty good, but not pretty.
I doubt French could accept that, on the other hand, they made SCART.
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2024, 03:42:22 am »
Yes it is.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2024, 10:06:40 am »
In Spain we use the German version of the Schuko plug and socket and I do not like the way the Earth connection is made, with tabs that sometimes bend and which do not give me confidence that they make good contact.
Your main problem is crappy quality of outlets. Just buy good quality outlets (from Niko, Gira, Jung, Busch-Jaeger to name a few quality brands) and the earth tabs will be OK for decades if not centuries.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 10:09:33 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline soldarTopic starter

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2024, 11:44:14 am »
In Spain we use the German version of the Schuko plug and socket and I do not like the way the Earth connection is made, with tabs that sometimes bend and which do not give me confidence that they make good contact.
Your main problem is crappy quality of outlets. Just buy good quality outlets (from Niko, Gira, Jung, Busch-Jaeger to name a few quality brands) and the earth tabs will be OK for decades if not centuries.

It still seems to me that the French system has better assurance of making a good Earth contact and is probably cheaper to manufacture.

If I have a choice between two systems and one is more reliable and less expensive then I would call it superior. 

Add to that the fact that the French system only allows the plug to be inserted one  way and so allows for polarization and in my view it is far superior.
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Offline janoc

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2024, 01:08:00 pm »
It still seems to me that the French system has better assurance of making a good Earth contact and is probably cheaper to manufacture.

...
Add to that the fact that the French system only allows the plug to be inserted one  way and so allows for polarization and in my view it is far superior.

First, the "French" (those sockets are also used in Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary and elsewhere, it is not a France-specific design) can and do suffer from the same kind of wear as the the regular German Schuko. Just the problem often happens on the plug side - if the contacts are worn and loose you will have a poor connection, esp. when people yank the plugs out of the outlets by the cable.

These sockets are also specifically to be always considered as not polarized, regardless of whether or not you can insert them only in one way. If you assume you have always live on the left and neutral on the right (with the earth pin at the top), sooner or later you will get shocked because there are many installations that don't follow this rule. There are also the T-splitters that reverse the polarity on one side - and they are completely legal and common in France and elsewhere. One has to always consider both wires as live and at a dangerous potential to earth. Never ever assume that the European mains plugs are polarized or you will get a bad surprise at some point.

The German Schuko design took this to the logical conclusion - nothing should ever rely on the polarity of the plug (e.g. switches in order to switch live and not neutral) - and made the plugs fit in either way. Which is often an advantage, esp. when trying to fit 90deg plugs into a poorly placed outlet.

In addition, there are plenty of installations that either have the earth pin not connected at all or (worse) tied to the neutral inside the outlet. So  :-//
« Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 01:17:08 pm by janoc »
 
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Online ejeffrey

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2024, 02:59:13 pm »

Add to that the fact that the French system only allows the plug to be inserted one  way and so allows for polarization and in my view it is far superior.

Even if the plugs were reliably wired polarized (which they are not) it's kind of silly since it only guarantees polarization for non grounded plugs.  Meanwhile, one of the biggest reason to use polarization is for Edison lamp sockets, which normally use 2 pin plugs.

My problem with shucko is mostly that there exist non grounded outlets at least in some countries, and there is no protection from inserting a plug that expects grounding present into an ungrounded outlet.  So not really a problem with shucko itself, but applies equally to both grounding styles.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2024, 03:07:51 pm »
Your picture of the EU Plug is wrong

- Phase is left
- Neutral is right

I have only JUNG (Made in Germany) outlets in my lab and they work just perfectly, all the time.
These are probably the best outlets I have seen in Germany.
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Offline janoc

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2024, 03:11:02 pm »

Even if the plugs were reliably wired polarized (which they are not) it's kind of silly since it only guarantees polarization for non grounded plugs.  Meanwhile, one of the biggest reason to use polarization is for Edison lamp sockets, which normally use 2 pin plugs.


You mean grounded plugs, the non-grounded two prong ones can be inserted either way.

Edison lamp sockets are a relic - and that's why in Europe one is taught to always pull the plug out of the wall before changing a bulb or doing any sort of work on the lamp fixture. Then the polarity of the plug, whether the plug, socket or switch are wired correctly, etc. is irrelevant.

There is no reason whatsoever to rely on plug polarity in connection with Edison lamp sockets. This used to be somewhat relevant for fixed installations where you are supposed to wire the live to the contact at the bottom of the socket because the sockets were often "naked" and fairly easily accessible to the touch. With the assumption that if you have neutral connected to the body of the socket, you are less likely to get shocked because it is a low potential with regards to the earth. Which is pretty specious (and dangerous) assumption at best, given the state of the wiring in many places.

These days you would be hard pressed to find a socket you could stick your fingers into and touch anything live with the bulb in place - everything is covered up. And even when there isn't a bulb in there one is meant to turn the power off before doing any work on the fixtures - and check that it is really off using a tester or multimeter.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 03:12:34 pm by janoc »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2024, 03:52:38 pm »
Your picture of the EU Plug is wrong

- Phase is left
- Neutral is right
That is how I have been told to wire Schuko outlet as well. Just don't know what to do when the outlet is rotated by 90 degrees  ;D
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Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2024, 04:19:48 pm »
Your picture of the EU Plug is wrong

- Phase is left
- Neutral is right
That is how I have been told to wire Schuko outlet as well. Just don't know what to do when the outlet is rotated by 90 degrees  ;D

To keep it interesting do it at random. It does not matter for the working of it.  :-DD

And with modern day child protection in the sockets, which I hate very much, you can't stick something in just a single hole without going to a large effort. Why I hate it so much is that sometimes even getting a proper plug in, seems impossible.

Online tszaboo

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2024, 04:32:02 pm »
I lived in countries both of these standards and I 100% prefer the German Schuko. You cannot plug in two ways into the French one, so half the time it will be in an awkward angle. Cables block the socket next to it sometimes. It's also not compatible with a lot of plug packs, chargers. It also holds the cable less. It's a nuisance.
 

Offline soldarTopic starter

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2024, 05:02:09 pm »
Your picture of the EU Plug is wrong

- Phase is left
- Neutral is right

I have only JUNG (Made in Germany) outlets in my lab and they work just perfectly, all the time.
These are probably the best outlets I have seen in Germany.
Not "my" picture. It is from Wikipedia, as I said.

And as far as I know there is no rule for polarization so, unless you can show some official standard, your rule is as valid as the opposite.

When I install things I tend to put live on right but that is just me and for my own consumption.
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Online nctnico

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2024, 05:16:17 pm »
Your picture of the EU Plug is wrong

- Phase is left
- Neutral is right
That is how I have been told to wire Schuko outlet as well. Just don't know what to do when the outlet is rotated by 90 degrees  ;D

To keep it interesting do it at random. It does not matter for the working of it.
True, but there has to be a standard to at least check the workmanship of the installers. If they got the order wrong, what else did they got wrong?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline m k

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2024, 05:54:29 pm »
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-YFE
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Offline madires

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2024, 06:41:55 pm »
To keep it interesting do it at random. It does not matter for the working of it.
True, but there has to be a standard to at least check the workmanship of the installers. If they got the order wrong, what else did they got wrong?

AFAIK, the German VDE norms don't specify any rule for the polarity of the Schuko socket. There's only a recommendation to wire all sockets in a building the same. Some sparkies wire sockets with phase left and neutral right, others the other way around. IMHO, it doesn't make any sense to define any phase/neutral wiring standard for non-polarized sockets as plugs can be inserted in either way. If you want a polarized socket/plug use CEE blue (for single phase).
 

Offline m k

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2024, 11:08:58 am »
Once a dairy barn had a washing machine.
Then an electrician felt some tinglings and asked matron how the machine had worked.
She told that first it was prickling, but now with new rubber boots it's just fine.
The machine was too far from grounded Schuko wall socket.
So patron made an extension from two wire rubber cable and nulled it, as was the custom.
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2024, 12:00:59 pm »

AFAIK, the German VDE norms don't specify any rule for the polarity of the Schuko socket.


That is correct, but it is recommended that phase is left and neutral is right

Here is a new JUNG receptor.
It is hard to see but the connections are marked "L" "N"

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Offline tooki

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2024, 12:27:59 pm »
In Spain we use the German version of the Schuko plug and socket and I do not like the way the Earth connection is made, with tabs that sometimes bend and which do not give me confidence that they make good contact. I also do not like that it is not polarized and you can plug in both ways.

I was recently in France and there I saw the French version and in my estimation it is superior.

...
Just a little pedantic point: "Schuko" is, by definition, the German style. ("Schuko" is literally short for SCHUtzKOntakt, the German name for "protective contact", i.e. PE). This is CEE 7/4.

The French plug is CEE 7/6.

The "European" plug that fits BOTH CEE 7/3 (German) and 7/5 (French) sockets is the CEE 7/7 plug. This plug is often called "Schuko", but strictly speaking that is not correct.


See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEE_7_standard_AC_plugs_and_sockets and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko
 

Offline madires

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2024, 01:33:21 pm »
Here is a new JUNG receptor.
It is hard to see but the connections are marked "L" "N"

Turn it by 180 ° .  >:D In some cases you want to mount the socket rotated by 90°. No left or right, but top and bottom. ;D
 

Offline m k

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2024, 02:40:24 pm »
Left and Low for L would be fine but Anglos are different, in so many ways.

Here it has changed, now it's right and down, like counting and clockwise.
But used to be the opposite.

It's possibly completely unknown to some, but these things can lead to indirect difficulties later.
Not so much with Schuko, but with "everything else" that are not directionless.
Most difficult it can be when the grid is isolated from earth and you've lived there all you life.

Schuko world is difficult when Neutral is included to the equation, before that it's simple, there are two equal wires for electricity.
But even with Neutral the difficulty is only in concept of difference, and only really something much later.
When from other direction it can be difficult to even use stuff that has mains connected sort of as you like.
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Offline soldarTopic starter

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2024, 03:49:01 pm »
I have marked the live side on many of the outlets I use especially on my workbench.

Also, some of the extension cords I have marked the live at both ends.  It is useful, not only for mains AC but also for other applications with DC or where I am only using one conductor.

I am still convinced the Earth contact with the French system is much more reliable and better. I would bet the resistance of the contact is always lower with the French system; lower when new and with the difference increasing with time, use, dirt, etc.  I would be very surprised if it turned out to be the other way around.
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Online tszaboo

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Re: French Schuko is superior
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2024, 04:03:08 pm »
I have marked the live side on many of the outlets I use especially on my workbench.

Also, some of the extension cords I have marked the live at both ends.  It is useful, not only for mains AC but also for other applications with DC or where I am only using one conductor.

I am still convinced the Earth contact with the French system is much more reliable and better. I would bet the resistance of the contact is always lower with the French system; lower when new and with the difference increasing with time, use, dirt, etc.  I would be very surprised if it turned out to be the other way around.
Why would you do this? Everything with that cable is either double insulated or earthed metal enclosure.
And why would you ever place DC into this socket?
The issue is not with the plug, it's between the keyboard and the chair.
 


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