From a Windows expert to a Linux noob...

[Halcyon]

So, I've been given a fairly modern laptop with an Intel Core i7 processor and 8GB RAM (it was getting thrown in the bin by a company so I rescued it).

Now, I won't lie, I've used every version of Windows since 3.1 was current, desktop and server, and practically know it inside out. I can talk someone through an entire install and configuration of Windows NT as I can Windows Server 2012 on the phone, eyes closed... you get the point.

However my experience with Linux is limited -- very limited. As in, I only just learnt what 'sudo' was. That said, I'd like to learn. I found installing Ubuntu Desktop 15.10 fairly painless. Is Ubuntu something worth starting with? Is it easy enough? What's the good, bad and ugly of Linux?

As time goes on I'm hating what Windows is becoming and I refuse to use anything Apple as it annoys the shit out of me. I still use Windows XP and Windows 7 as my two primary machines and they do to the job well. I guess at some point, I'm going to have to upgrade.

(Believe me people, this is a huge step for me!)

[nctnico]

sudo=Super User DO
It basically executes a command as the root (administrator in Windows) without needing to login as root. Actually you can give a user permission to execute certain commands as root (see /etc/sudoers)

IMHO Windows 10 ain't bad if only it was possible to get rid of all the anti-aliased text. My eyes can't deal with that.

[Mechanical Menace]

Halcyon it's just another OS, no harder than any other once you learn some of its ways. You're coming to it expecting to have to relearn how to do things you can already do in your sleep so that will be an advantage.

For all the bad That can be said about it Ubuntu is a good choice for a first distro given its relatively vast user base, generally helpful community, and good third party support. Tbh many find it brilliant to carry on using long after they've reached an "expert" level. I'd stick with it until you feel a need to move away. If you don't like Unity you could always try Kubuntu, Ubuntu Gnome, Ubuntu Mate, etc...

The good is you are free to choose.
The bad is you are free to choose.
The ugly is the religious opinions you get asking such questions.

This +9001

[Whales]

What's the good, bad and ugly of Linux?

Everyone will say different things here.  Here are two points that mean a lot to me personally:

Good: speed of installing programs and the culture of them being free.   If I need an image editor, I can have it installed within a few minutes (or less) with minimum of fuss.  No installers, no bundled software, no searching the web.  I can install an image editor and then use it to colour-correct and deskew an image with my under-powered ARM laptop all faster than the guy next to me with his $1000+ laptop.

Bad: The almost universal adoption of systemd.  It has caused me serious problems and continues to go on a path of just-not-caring about users.

The good is you are free to choose.
The bad is you are free to choose.
The ugly is the religious opinions you get asking such questions

Beautiful.

[Mechanical Menace]

One point I wanted to make earlier but forgot was that Ubuntu producers Canonical attempted to integrate commercial search results (ie Amazon) into the unity desktop.

From System Settings go to Security & Privacy, select the Search tab, turns off web search from the Dash.

Code: [Select]

sudo apt-get remove unity-webapps-common

Removes Amazon

EDIT:Obviously only a problem for "normal" Ubuntu Desktop though.

[SeanB]

Yes, exactly as above, separate partitions for home, filesystem and swap. I would use more for swap if you can, typically 2-3 times the main memory, so that hibernate actually has a chance of working. Mint because it has long term support, and this 5 year cycle allows you to learn easier instead of just trying to keep up with the fad of the month.

By default you can encrypt the home folder, and on a laptop this is a good idea, though it has issues with hibernate at times. As it comes from the installer you will find most things work, wireless might be iffy depending on the wireless chipset, but pretty much the rest will work out of the box. Install Virtualbox and then you can put in a few VM with windows machines to do those things linux is poor at., or which is not written for it.

Applications is up to you, if you like mail you have a whole lot to use, though I prefer ( and have done so for a long time now) Evolution over Thunderbird. Install Chromium ( as opposed to Chrome) as a browser in addition to Firefox, and you will have a good browsing experience. VLC as a media player is pretty good, though the built in Totem is quite usable, though you will have to install the non-free codecs to play certain content.

[Halcyon]

Yes, exactly as above, separate partitions for home, filesystem and swap. I would use more for swap if you can, typically 2-3 times the main memory, so that hibernate actually has a chance of working.

See, to me swap has a different meaning. In Windows, I could quite safely disable swap altogether if I had enough RAM to cater for my needs. It seems the Linux swap does something else (it's like I'm using Windows 98 again!). I have to say, after using Ubuntu today it certainly has its positives but it still feels less "refined" than Windows does. Even little things like, such as going to fullscreen video doesn't automatically prevent the machine from going to sleep (based on system power settings). Little things like that. I also found the networking stack to be a bit odd -- In my case if I connected the Ethernet cable to my LAN (without internet) but used a WiFi hotspot for internet access, it got confused and couldn't access both at the same time (things would start timing out or not resolving at all). In Windows it usually works itself out (if DNS resolution failed on one interface, it would try on the others that were active and set the metric accordingly) but if all else failed, it's easy enough to set the metric manually.

Amazon was also the first thing I uninstalled. Don't like it and don't use it. I have to say though the uninstall process was not dissimilar to the Windows Add/Remove Programs. It loses points for installing it in the first place, but I guess it's not difficult to remove.

I also found under Windows, if a device driver wasn't working or didn't exist, you'd know about it in Device Manager. However under Linux (Ubuntu) things seem to work just fine, however I'm dubious whether or not their working to their full potential/capability. An example is the audio drivers on this machine, this laptop has a built-in "sub-woofer" however the audio is worse than my mobile phone loudspeaker. Is Linux just providing basic support then I have to go around installing additional crap? How do I know? At least in Windows, it either worked or it didn't and if not, you'd get a big effing exclamation mark saying "hey, I need drivers, go get them".

[albert22]

I used to work as a system administrator on unix many years ago when there was no windowing systems. Then  with sun solaris and its OpenWindows which was a lot more friendly. I ended hatting the unix environment and decided not use it anymore.  Until a few years ago when I was forced to use a laptop with w8, then I said to myself "let me see that unix/linux again"
As in here:
http://www.smart-words.org/humor-jokes/smart-jokes/genie-in-a-bottle.html
I installed Ubuntu, it is very easy to install as you already know and very friendly to use. I tried first on a virtual machine and it is usable but rather slow. With vmware player or similar you can try different distros very easily.
As someone said before there are lots of free software some are great, some are very limited and a little buggy. Depending on your application you may not find a linux version of the program that you need.   As an example for some EE tools you will have to stick with window$.
Life in ubuntu and perhaps other distros is very easy if you can solve most of issues at the desktop.
Installing programs using the "ubuntu software center" or "apt-get" command is straightforward but only works for the versions that are already at the repositories.
If you need to install something by yourself of compile from source it can become a nightmare. Then you are in the realm of the terminal window, texts commands and dependencies. That involves a steeeep learning curve. Nevertheless searching the web usually gives you some cryptic and magic commands that solves your problems.

[Mechanical Menace]

See, to me swap obviously has a different meaning. In Windows, I could quite safely disable swap altogether if I had enough RAM to cater for my needs.

If you don't need hibernate you don't really need a swap partition if you've plenty of RAM.

Even little things like, such as going to fullscreen video doesn't automatically prevent the machine from going to sleep (based on system power settings).

That is just a setting in the video player. Probably should be the default I agree.

An example is the audio drivers on this machine, this laptop has a built-in "sub-woofer" however the audio is worse than my mobile phone loudspeaker. Is Linux just providing basic support then I have to go around installing additional crap? How do I know? At least in Windows, it either worked or it didn't.

Have you tried to change the output to 2.1 in the settings program?



OT but seeing as you know Windows well how would I go about getting my PC to shutdown instead of suspend/hibernate in Windows' power management settings? Suspend and nVidia GPUs don't work well in Windows.

[Monkeh]

Yes, exactly as above, separate partitions for home, filesystem and swap. I would use more for swap if you can, typically 2-3 times the main memory, so that hibernate actually has a chance of working.

See, to me swap obviously has a different meaning. In Windows, I could quite safely disable swap altogether if I had enough RAM to cater for my needs.

And you can in Linux, too. Of course, if your needs involve hibernating.. that's where you traditionally store the RAM image. Windows uses a separate file for purposes of.. wasting disk space? Who knows. There's little need.

Even little things like, such as going to fullscreen video doesn't automatically prevent the machine from going to sleep (based on system power settings). Little things like that.

Your video player and desktop environment aren't talking. Never assume a big distro like Ubuntu has its ducks in a row (I'm fairly convinced they don't know what a duck is - does it go meow?).

I also found the networking stack to be a bit odd -- In my case if I connected the Ethernet cable to my LAN (without internet) but used a WiFi hotspot for internet access, it got confused and couldn't access both at the same time (things would start timing out or not resolving at all). In Windows it usually works itself out but if not, it's easy enough to set the metric.

NetworkManager is an unrefined, godawful pig turd. You get used to it.. eventually. Or just disable it and manage interfaces manually (does Ubuntu have a sensible way to do this? I have no idea.).

I also found under Windows, if a device driver wasn't working or didn't exist, you'd know about it in Device Manager. However under Linux (Ubuntu) things seem to work just fine, however I'm dubious whether or not their working to their full potential. An example is the audio drivers on this machine, this laptop has a built-in "sub-woofer" however the audio is worse than my mobile phone loudspeaker. Is Linux just providing basic support then I have to go around installing additional crap? How do I know? At least in Windows, it either worked or it didn't.

Audio support is.. problematic. There's a lot of voodoo magic and human sacrifice involved in HDA, and it's more or less maintained by one person. One person with a really bad habit of committing barely tested sweeping changes which end up breaking hundreds of different machines he's never used. I have, over the years and laptops (never use HDA on desktops), lost mic inputs, had massive changes to gain, lost speakers, lost and found mute controls, etc.

Welcome to the fastest moving target in the OS world. And you're on the slow version.

[Halcyon]

OT but seeing as you know Windows well how would I go about getting my PC to shutdown instead of suspend/hibernate in Windows? Suspend and nVidia GPUs don't work well in Windows.

Which version? If you're running 2000/XP/Vista, look in Control Panel > Power Settings. That dictates how your power button/closing the screen lid/timeout works and what it does. Personally for laptops I set "When I close my screen" to do nothing. That way it just disables the LCD and keeps everything running.

From Windows Vista on, I think they implemented "Power Plans" which were just some bullshit default settings. You'll need customise them to your needs.

Depending on your system too, you may have BIOS settings which dictate sleep/suspend/hibernate modes. Check those too.

[Halcyon]

Never assume a big distro like Ubuntu has its ducks in a row (I'm fairly convinced they don't know what a duck is - does it go meow?)

NetworkManager is an unrefined, godawful pig turd. You get used to it.. eventually. Or just disable it and manage interfaces manually (does Ubuntu have a sensible way to do this? I have no idea.).

Audio support is.. problematic. There's a lot of voodoo magic and human sacrifice involved in HDA, and it's more or less maintained by one person. One person with a really bad habit of committing barely tested sweeping changes which end up breaking hundreds of different machines he's never used. I have, over the years and laptops (never use HDA on desktops), lost mic inputs, had massive changes to gain, lost speakers, lost and found mute controls, etc.

Welcome to the fastest moving target in the OS world. And you're on the slow version.

This is the sort of shit I've *tried* to get used to with Linux in the past but always ended up reverting back to Windows. You install a basic OS (no bundled applications you didn't ask for), you install device drivers if needed (yes, it sometimes involved manually downloading them, but so what? You knew exactly what you were installing). Then after a few updates, you had a clean slate.

Argh, I'm seriously trying to like Linux, but I feel like I'm constantly getting two steps ahead then one step behind. This is just one machine, what about the 2-3 others I use for various purposes?

[Mechanical Menace]

From Windows Vista on, I think they implemented "Power Plans" which were just some bullshit default settings. You'll need customise them to your needs.

I only really use Windows for gaming so I'm running Windows 10. I can only find options for "sleep" in the power plans. There doesn't seem to be any options to shutdown after so long inactive.

Depending on your system too, you may have BIOS settings which dictate sleep/suspend/hibernate modes. Check those too.

Works OK in other OSs including Windows 7. Haven't a clue about 8 and 8.1. Sort of hoping Vulkan takes off big style so I can role back to 7


Thanks anyhows.

[Halcyon]

From Windows Vista on, I think they implemented "Power Plans" which were just some bullshit default settings. You'll need customise them to your needs.

I only really use Windows for gaming so I'm running Windows 10. I can only find options for "sleep" in the power plans. There doesn't seem to be any options to shutdown after so long inactive.

Having not used Windows 10 before... try your screen saver settings. Otherwise in order to enact a full shutdown, you might need some 3rd party software... or just hit the power button when you're done?

[Iwanushka]

Ubuntu is fine for start it's just works tm.

If you have lots of free time to play around and learn linux inside out you can jump on gentoo train. My first and last linux distro is gentoo but it takes lots of time at the begining to get everything working as you want it.

[Kilrah]

OT but seeing as you know Windows well how would I go about getting my PC to shutdown instead of suspend/hibernate in Windows' power management settings? Suspend and nVidia GPUs don't work well in Windows.

There isn't such a feature in the OS AFAIK. But I've had about 5 laptops with nVidia GPUs in the last 10 years and never had an issue with suspend... and they get suspended several times a day, and not rebooted more frequently than once a week or so.

This is the sort of shit I've *tried* to get used to with Linux in the past but always ended up reverting back to Windows. You install a basic OS (no bundled applications you didn't ask for), you install device drivers if needed (yes, it sometimes involved manually downloading them, but so what? You knew exactly what you were installing). Then after a few updates, you had a clean slate.

Argh, I'm seriously trying to like Linux, but I feel like I'm constantly getting two steps ahead then one step behind. This is just one machine, what about the 2-3 others I use for various purposes?

Exactly the same here. I dabble quite a bit with it on dedicated devices e.g RPi, it's really cool to put things together, doing dev/coding but for everyday use there's no way I can do with Linux, and it didn't really get any better since the first time I said that 12+ years ago.

Happily running W10 on all my machines, coming straight from 7 and XP before that... The mess in between is best kept under the carpet. Actually wrong, my laptop is a mac and I've managed to come to terms with OSX for light mobile use since Yosemite, I run Windows either on Bootcamp when really needed or as a VM for the stuff that needs it.

[Mechanical Menace]

There isn't such a feature in the OS AFAIK.

That's an idiotic oversight.

But I've had about 5 laptops with nVidia GPUs in the last 10 years and never had an issue with suspend... and they get suspended several times a day, and not rebooted more frequently than once a week or so.

I'm on about desktop GPUs not the "m" types. Will admit it works fine with my 8800 or 680, but with my 690 and 980ti's the screens won't turn back on when resuming. Doesn't matter which output I use or what PC the cards are in. All of them work fine in Linux distros albeit with no proper SLI or MultiGPU support, though I do tend turn of suspend to ram/hibernate and just have them shutdown instead.

EDIT: I'm not trying to be a "stealth fanboy" here, it's just something that really doesn't work for me.

Thanks for the suggestions. Sorry for derailing things.

[Kilrah]

That's an idiotic oversight.

Well I can't think of a situation where I'd want my PC to shutdown on me without warning  Probably dangerous to have that as a standard option for the general user who'd lose unsaved work too.

Anyway there seems to be a workaround, adjust the command line to shutdown instead of logging out: https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/windows/en-US/d358382c-e91b-4e91-a1e8-04c53cfd91ce/automatic-logout-after-inactivityidle?forum=w7itprogeneral

Or there are very likely 3rd party tools for that.

[nctnico]

Exactly the same here. I dabble quite a bit with it on dedicated devices e.g RPi, it's really cool to put things together, doing dev/coding but for everyday use there's no way I can do with Linux, and it didn't really get any better since the first time I said that 12+ years ago.

Actually Linux has become very usefull as a desktop over the last 5 years especially since virtual machines have improved a lot. I have been using Linux for about 20 years. Over a year ago I have switched from Windows to Linux as the primary OS and banished Windows to a virtual machine. However switching over takes time. It took me 3 years to gradually move & test functionalities to a Linux desktop on a seperate machine using Xming (paid version) to have a remote desktop.
Currently I still use Windows (in a VM) for some things like using MS-Word, Orcad and programming NXP microcontrollers.

[Mechanical Menace]

Well I can't think of a situation where I'd want my PC to shutdown on me without warning.

It's no more without warning than sleep/hibernate/suspend after so long inactive is. Say I've fallen asleep watching something, I just took off forgetting to shut down the PC, I don't see the point of wasting the extra energy not having it shut down, or suspend doesn't work with some hardware* and when Windows decides to turn suspend back to 30 minutes instead of "never" behind my back I have to hard reset the PC...

Windows used to give you the option to do it until Windows 10, every other OS including OSX does, doesn't cause problems.

Probably dangerous to have that as a standard option for the general user who'd lose unsaved work too.

What programs from the past 20 years don't automatically save and let you resume from where you left off with your edit history intact? I don't use one that doesn't, not even a video player or web browser.


My particular problem seems to be very common too.

[Kilrah]

What programs from the past 20 years don't automatically save and let you resume from where you left off with your edit history intact?

On a tablet which has an OS designed to work that way none, but at least half of the programs I use daily on Windows won't do that (apart from "recovery" situations after a crash) and will actually prevent a shutdown if something is unsaved, so the PC would just stay stuck on "closing applications" until I either cancelled shutdown and took care of them or manually clicked the "shutdown anyway" button and as such decided to deal with the potential consequences.

[Mechanical Menace]

On a tablet which has an OS designed to work that way none,

I don't use a tablet for any more than web browsing or reading comics, I was specifically thinking of PC (whether Windows, OSX, or Linux) programs

but at least half of the programs I use daily on Windows won't do that (apart from "recovery" situations after a crash) and will actually prevent a shutdown if something is unsaved

And I'm genuinely surprised by that. Do they not even have an autosave feature at all? Must be murder for laptop users if they don't.

[Len]

but at least half of the programs I use daily on Windows won't do that (apart from "recovery" situations after a crash) and will actually prevent a shutdown if something is unsaved

And I'm genuinely surprised by that. DO they not even have an autosave feature at all? Must be murder for laptop users if they don't.

Prompting to save on app exit is standard Windows behaviour. (And Mac too.) No problem for laptops because generally the laptop just goes to sleep when you close it and wakes up exactly as you left it, unsaved files and all. I shut down my laptop way less often than my desktop.

I hate apps that just silently autosave the file periodically because sometimes I don't want to save my changes!

[Mechanical Menace]

Prompting to save on app exit is standard Windows behaviour. (And Mac too.)

Standard behaviour when exiting with unsaved changes, even in textmode programs. The various *nix's and DRI did that in their GUI programs long before there were Macs too.

I hate apps that just silently autosave the file periodically because sometimes I don't want to save my changes!

As long as they also remember the edit history it's something I couldn't live without.

[Macbeth]

I like Windows and can certainly raise a glass to Bill for my lucrative programming career. But I just can't help loving Linux. I have an awful 1U Xeon rack server in the spare room that I used to run with SBS2003. Slow as shit and no longer supported. I switched it over to Ubuntu Server a few years ago and have it doing all my email, torrents, usenet, file shares, and even TVHeadend with a DVB-S2 PCI card and 2x USB DVB-T2 pumping all that crappy broadcast programming to the Raspberry PI TV's in the house. 

All my Windows laptops/desktops have Cygwin/X installed, because I just prefer BASH over crappy DOS PROMPT.