Author Topic: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure  (Read 6227 times)

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2023, 09:55:59 am »
I *hate* automatic transmissions, I think manual transmission proficiency should be required to get a driver's license, then if you really want an automatic you can get one.

I have never driven a manual car in my life, sems like an absolute waste of effort. Manual cars are pretty rare here now I think.

I just checked, and sure enough:
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/by-the-numbers-the-decline-of-the-manual-transmission

 

Offline tom66

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2023, 10:10:49 am »
I mean this is hardly surprising is it? It should be obvious that a person that dislikes having the car shift for them is going to dislike having the car drive for them even more. At least I would think that's obvious. For some people a car is nothing more than a transportation appliance, Americans in particular are lazy and just want to get where they're going, other people like to drive. Another symptom of this is that the vast majority of cars are incredibly boring and nondescript, the market seems to have settled on the generic CUV design, virtually everyone is making them and they all have comically enormous grills and emblems because that's about the only thing that differentiates the brands.

I love automatic and I consider myself a bit of a driving enthusiast.  The dual-clutch transmission in my car can shift faster and more efficiently than any manual can, is smooth as butter when it comes to modest acceleration, and reduces the need to think about shifting gears in traffic or around the city.  I disagree that having an automatic means you can get distracted; on the highway, a manual can sit in 5th or 6th gear just fine whilst someone decides to text and drive.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2023, 10:29:42 am »
Perhaps they should close off the border and stop allowing them to flood in?
Almost impossible, once they get across the border or near your coast on a sinking ship without papers what are you going to do?

Barring some fundamental change, ie. singularity, the most humane solution would be an evolved version of the Australian solution. Buy land from some thin populated third world country and create a colony for refugees. They'd have to rip up a ton of post WW2 and EU treaties though, which is never going to happen.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2023, 10:31:46 am »
I have never driven a manual car in my life, sems like an absolute waste of effort.

It's not like you have anything better to do.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2023, 11:19:54 am »
I think the happy medium would be to have self driving corridors.  Make all highways have the infrastructure in place. Once you hit a town then you have to take over for the side streets.

The infrastructure could be as simple has having posts with transponders of sort on them or even just QR codes or other subtle markers that are easy to pickup by automation.    Ideally it should be something passive that requires no power since there is no power along most highways, at least not low voltage.   GPS on it's own is not accurate enough especially at driving speeds and required reaction times. Ex: driving 100km/h less that a foot away from other cars, civilian GPS is just not accurate enough to make that kind of judgement in real time like that.

The issue with self driving as is right now is it relies on lot of things to be perfect, such as the road being very clean, no pot holes, no snow, proper lines and signage, etc. That is not a very typical road at all. Highway 11 for example is usually snow packed, and most roads are full of potholes that you need to avoid.

Let me know where you drive 100 km/hr one foot from other cars.  I want to avoid the area.

Afaik GPS is not used directly for guidance or navigation.  The information is melded with rate and acceleration sensors and the radar sonar and vision sensors to get an estimate of where the car is.  Much like human drivers do.  And as prior posters said, because the details are different  the successes and failures are different.

Ideally you are not actually going 100km/h once you are at 1 foot but in a typical driving situation you can go from 100km/h to having to slow down, stop, make a turn etc and in any of those situations you could be a foot away from other cars in the stopped state or while turning as there may be other cars turning too.  These are all split second decisions that you do passively while driving, but automating this to be accurate 100% of the time is not easy. On the 400 series highways it's also not that uncommon to be bumper to bumper, though it's typically at like 2km/h.  But I have been in such traffic when it was actually moving at the speed limit. It's a little unnerving. I wouldn't want to be driving in that myself, I was a passenger.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2023, 11:21:06 am »
I think the happy medium would be to have self driving corridors.  Make all highways have the infrastructure in place. Once you hit a town then you have to take over for the side streets.
The infrastructure could be as simple has having posts with transponders of sort on them or even just QR codes or other subtle markers that are easy to pickup by automation.

I don't think that will ever happen.
They all can't agree on what type of charger plug to use and how you pay for it. I have no less than half dozen different EV charging app on my phone.

For self driving cars to succeed in the market they must be able to operate within existing infrastructure.

Yeah true, it seems companies/government etc really don't like standards and all want to do their own thing, so it would be very hard to coordinate this. 
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2023, 12:04:58 pm »
But the controversial bit in the whole thing is that due to population growth and more and more people staying or becoming single there is the need for >100000 new homes build every year.  :-DD

P.S. the population growth is not due to birth, but due to the in stream of asylum seekers.
Perhaps they should close off the border and stop allowing them to flood in? This is something that has often bothered me, all sorts of countries have people flowing in seeking refuge from other countries. I would rather help them sort out the problems in their own country whichever that may be rather than fleeing and adding to the strain of another area.
The European borders are locked down pretty well. And those who get in without permission, get send back to their country at some point. Europe is not like the US where people who stay long enough get a free pass. There are cases where people get send back to their original country after 10+ years. Doesn't matter if they built a life for themselves or not. Illegal is illegal.

However, quite a large number of people are being let into Europe because 'we' need the workforce. There are not enough people to do all the work. Some people keep complaining about letting so many strangers in, but the numbers are still quite low relatively speaking.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2023, 12:09:34 pm »
For self driving cars to succeed in the market they must be able to operate within existing infrastructure.
I disagree. That statement is similar to saying that BEVs should run on gasoline. Self driving cars will need specific infrastructure and that just won't be rolled out at a large scale any time soon. IIRC Waymo and Uber have been making detailed maps of parts of cities so their self driving cars can operate there. OTOH 6G mobile networks will also be usefull as a terrestrial positioning system so the problem with having a precise location in dense urban areas is likely to solve itself over time.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2023, 05:57:00 pm »
I have never driven a manual car in my life, sems like an absolute waste of effort. Manual cars are pretty rare here now I think.

What effort? It's like walking, once you know how to do it you don't even think about the mechanical process, it's effortless. It's only when you go and drive an automatic car that it feels so incredibly boring and soul-less, you have less control, you have less engine braking, it feels slushy and mushy, less power, lower fuel economy, with an automatic you're not really driving so much as just aiming. I'm also a big fan of the mechanical simplicity of a manual gearbox. It's much smaller, lighter, simpler, there are no cooling lines or heat exchanger, no clutch packs or valve body, no electronics, it can go hundreds of thousands of miles without so much as a fluid change. When you do have to remove it for something such as to replace the clutch, it's so much easier to handle than a big bulky heavy slushbox.

But like I said, vast numbers of people are in your position and have never driven a manual in their life, they don't know what they're missing.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2023, 05:59:43 pm »
However, quite a large number of people are being let into Europe because 'we' need the workforce. There are not enough people to do all the work. Some people keep complaining about letting so many strangers in, but the numbers are still quite low relatively speaking.

Are there not enough people there to do all the work, or not enough people there willing to do the work for wages that are lower than what a native citizen expects?
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2023, 06:02:26 pm »
Almost impossible, once they get across the border or near your coast on a sinking ship without papers what are you going to do?

Barring some fundamental change, ie. singularity, the most humane solution would be an evolved version of the Australian solution. Buy land from some thin populated third world country and create a colony for refugees. They'd have to rip up a ton of post WW2 and EU treaties though, which is never going to happen.

Put them on another ship and drop them off back where they claim to have come from? If you let it slide and just let people enter illegally and stay, it only encourages more people to come there illegally. If everyone that doesn't go through the proper immigration path gets sent back it is less likely for others to try to shortcut.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #61 on: March 08, 2023, 06:46:32 pm »
Put them on another ship and drop them off back where they claim to have come from?

They'll just claim to be from basket case du jour which you can't reasonably return them to. They will often be clearly lying ... then you start playing chicken, how long are you willing to hold them hostage to speak the truth? Not very long at all, we don't have the stomach to put them in concentration camps. Of course occasionally even if they aren't lying, the sheer amount coming in from the actual basket cases is a huge problem regardless.

New colonies solves it for both cases.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #62 on: March 08, 2023, 07:04:48 pm »
I have never driven a manual car in my life, sems like an absolute waste of effort. Manual cars are pretty rare here now I think.

What effort? It's like walking, once you know how to do it you don't even think about the mechanical process, it's effortless. It's only when you go and drive an automatic car that it feels so incredibly boring and soul-less, you have less control, you have less engine braking, it feels slushy and mushy, less power, lower fuel economy, with an automatic you're not really driving so much as just aiming. I'm also a big fan of the mechanical simplicity of a manual gearbox. It's much smaller, lighter, simpler, there are no cooling lines or heat exchanger, no clutch packs or valve body, no electronics, it can go hundreds of thousands of miles without so much as a fluid change. When you do have to remove it for something such as to replace the clutch, it's so much easier to handle than a big bulky heavy slushbox.

But like I said, vast numbers of people are in your position and have never driven a manual in their life, they don't know what they're missing.

Just to show that there are other positions in the space of people selecting drive trains for their vehicles, I learned to drive on manual transmissions, have purchased and owned others, and prefer an automatic.  I also have automatic choke and automatic spark advance and an electric starter.  I am missing out on all sorts of opportunities for control, and have traded simplicity in the vehicle for ease of use.  I view the automobile as a tool to go from place to place, not as a source of pleasure.  I do take drives for pleasure, but it isn't for the joy of making a car follow a lane around curves and over hills, but to see new places, enjoy scenery and get away from my daily surroundings.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying the act of driving.  Many people do.  But don't project that onto others.  That is as bad as saying that if you don't enjoy American football you are somehow deficient.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #63 on: March 08, 2023, 08:49:35 pm »
However, quite a large number of people are being let into Europe because 'we' need the workforce. There are not enough people to do all the work. Some people keep complaining about letting so many strangers in, but the numbers are still quite low relatively speaking.

Are there not enough people there to do all the work, or not enough people there willing to do the work for wages that are lower than what a native citizen expects?
Where it comes to the NL: there are not enough people. The unemployment rate is below 4%. Some companies are closing down because they can't get enough people to do the work.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #64 on: March 08, 2023, 09:03:18 pm »
Nitrogen emissions? The air is something like 80% nitrogen, or do you mean nitrogen compounds? What does that have to do with building?
I think the reference is to things like oxides being emitted into the atmosphere and nitrogen fertilizers flushing into rivers. The latter is a good example of out of touch governments. In the 1980s fertilizer runoff was becoming a major problem in Europe, clogging up rivers with weed, and killing off the fish. However, fertilizer is expensive so there was always an economic incentive to avoid that runoff. Sure enough, people have developed various technologies, such as the spreaders using GPS data to selectively fertilize specific parts of each field, to minimise waste. Now various governments are suddenly trying to suppress farming when the problem is already on the decline.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #65 on: March 08, 2023, 09:07:09 pm »
I *hate* automatic transmissions, I think manual transmission proficiency should be required to get a driver's license, then if you really want an automatic you can get one.

I have never driven a manual car in my life, sems like an absolute waste of effort. Manual cars are pretty rare here now I think.

I just checked, and sure enough:
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/by-the-numbers-the-decline-of-the-manual-transmission


Even in the UK, where a huge number of people are addicted to manual transmissions, especially in small cars, automatics are now slightly outselling manuals. Many luxury cars are not even offered in a manual version, although that is not such a big change. Even in the 80s luxury cars sold mostly as automatics. The big change is in small cars.
 

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #66 on: March 08, 2023, 10:15:35 pm »
For self driving cars to succeed in the market they must be able to operate within existing infrastructure.
I disagree. That statement is similar to saying that BEVs should run on gasoline. Self driving cars will need specific infrastructure and that just won't be rolled out at a large scale any time soon.

That's why I said that, I don't see any such rollout happening. And then you need to built this stuff into the cars and have universal agreement.
And then who's going to pay? What percentage of the public actually car about self driving cars? And those that do, how many of those are going to be willing to pay for such infrastructure through their tax dollars?
If you leave it up to the car companies to pay for it then you'll just end up with different incompatible systems.
 

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #67 on: March 08, 2023, 10:17:35 pm »
Even in the UK, where a huge number of people are addicted to manual transmissions, especially in small cars, automatics are now slightly outselling manuals. Many luxury cars are not even offered in a manual version, although that is not such a big change. Even in the 80s luxury cars sold mostly as automatics. The big change is in small cars.

Yes. Pretty much the only cars with manual here are the ultra-cheap tiny cars where saving $1-2k in cost is a big percentage of the ticket price.
Maybe work vehicles, but that's pretty much it.
 

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2023, 10:27:12 pm »
What effort? It's like walking, once you know how to do it you don't even think about the mechanical process, it's effortless. It's only when you go and drive an automatic car that it feels so incredibly boring and soul-less, you have less control, you have less engine braking, it feels slushy and mushy, less power, lower fuel economy, with an automatic you're not really driving so much as just aiming. I'm also a big fan of the mechanical simplicity of a manual gearbox. It's much smaller, lighter, simpler, there are no cooling lines or heat exchanger, no clutch packs or valve body, no electronics, it can go hundreds of thousands of miles without so much as a fluid change. When you do have to remove it for something such as to replace the clutch, it's so much easier to handle than a big bulky heavy slushbox.

But like I said, vast numbers of people are in your position and have never driven a manual in their life, they don't know what they're missing.

You are projecting your desires onto others, that doesn't work.
Some (most?) people just want to get from A-B
And who says I can't enjoy driving an automatic as much or even more than you enjoy driving your manual. Just because you like having one hand on the stick and manually controlling it, others might like other aspects of driving like hanging one arm out the window hand surfing just relaxing cruising along regardless of the conditions. I LOVE driving my EV, it's smooth, it's quiet, and I don't have to constantly dick around with a stick in traffic. Do you really enjoy your manual stick in heavy traffic, really? Why?
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #69 on: March 08, 2023, 11:34:17 pm »
Even in the UK, where a huge number of people are addicted to manual transmissions, especially in small cars, automatics are now slightly outselling manuals. Many luxury cars are not even offered in a manual version, although that is not such a big change. Even in the 80s luxury cars sold mostly as automatics. The big change is in small cars.

Yes. Pretty much the only cars with manual here are the ultra-cheap tiny cars where saving $1-2k in cost is a big percentage of the ticket price.
Maybe work vehicles, but that's pretty much it.

Even then many of these have at least automated manual transmissions as an option.  For instance, even Smart cars now have dual clutch automatic transmissions though you can still get a manual if you ask.

Besides, on my automatic car there exists a manual mode and it behaves much like a manual car. It will even let you hit an electronically limited red line and won't shift up unless you sit at that red line for more than 10 seconds or so (probably just component protection at that point!)  About the only thing it won't let you do is destroy your engine/gearbox by shifting into the wrong gear, but I'm not sure anyone wanted that feature to stay :).
 

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #70 on: March 08, 2023, 11:38:13 pm »
Even then many of these have at least automated manual transmissions as an option.  For instance, even Smart cars now have dual clutch automatic transmissions though you can still get a manual if you ask.

Besides, on my automatic car there exists a manual mode and it behaves much like a manual car. It will even let you hit an electronically limited red line and won't shift up unless you sit at that red line for more than 10 seconds or so (probably just component protection at that point!)  About the only thing it won't let you do is destroy your engine/gearbox by shifting into the wrong gear, but I'm not sure anyone wanted that feature to stay :).

My ICE car has a CVT and "manual" drive mode. You shift the stick over and then use it like a manual but shifting back and forth to go up and down the "gears".
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2023, 07:54:48 am »
Besides, on my automatic car there exists a manual mode and it behaves much like a manual car. It will even let you hit an electronically limited red line and won't shift up unless you sit at that red line for more than 10 seconds or so (probably just component protection at that point!)  About the only thing it won't let you do is destroy your engine/gearbox by shifting into the wrong gear, but I'm not sure anyone wanted that feature to stay :).

A manually shifted automatic is pointless. You have all the mechanical and hydraulic complexity and weight of a slushbox and no clutch pedal so you lose that aspect of control which is hugely beneficial in snow and ice. It's kind of the worst of both worlds, may as well just have an automatic at that point. You'd have to try pretty hard to shift into the wrong gear and destroy something, if you try to for example shift a manual gearbox into 2nd gear at highway speed it won't go in, unless maybe you force the lever really hard and get the synchro to spool up the input shaft. These manual modes are toys for people that want the video game experience, it is totally different than driving a real manual, it's not even close.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2023, 08:00:19 am »
You are projecting your desires onto others, that doesn't work.
Some (most?) people just want to get from A-B
And who says I can't enjoy driving an automatic as much or even more than you enjoy driving your manual. Just because you like having one hand on the stick and manually controlling it, others might like other aspects of driving like hanging one arm out the window hand surfing just relaxing cruising along regardless of the conditions. I LOVE driving my EV, it's smooth, it's quiet, and I don't have to constantly dick around with a stick in traffic. Do you really enjoy your manual stick in heavy traffic, really? Why?

I'm not projecting anything. I'm simply saying that if everyone had the opportunity to drive a manual, a much larger percentage of people would realize that it's fun and choose one. When nobody gets exposure, many fewer are interested in jumping through the hoops. It's similar to the reason we should still have shop class in high school, you give people a taste of these things and they find out they like it. Those that don't, fine, that's why automatics are available, go ahead and make that choice, but I think everyone should try a manual too.

Driving in heavy traffic is a miserable experience no matter what you have. I hardly ever do it, on the rare occasions I go into the office I take the bus. When I drive it's to go visit a friend or family member, run errands, head out on a camping trip or just go for a drive, I enjoy cruising along a twisty mountain road on a nice day, the fewer other cars around the better. Driving is fun and relaxing, I've always enjoyed it.
 

Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2023, 08:02:27 am »
You'd have to try pretty hard to shift into the wrong gear and destroy something, if you try to for example shift a manual gearbox into 2nd gear at highway speed it won't go in, unless maybe you force the lever really hard and get the synchro to spool up the input shaft.

Unless your gearbox has a lot of wear.  >:D

I had that long long back with an Opel Kadett, I wanted to shift up, but got the reverse.  :-DD  Was easy to fix. Got a second hand gearbox from a scrapyard and replaced it myself.

Offline james_s

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Re: Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2023, 08:19:03 am »
Unless your gearbox has a lot of wear.  >:D

I had that long long back with an Opel Kadett, I wanted to shift up, but got the reverse.  :-DD  Was easy to fix. Got a second hand gearbox from a scrapyard and replaced it myself.

Most of the cars I've spent a significant amount of time driving have been Volvo and Saab. For many years Volvo has a collar you have to pull up in order to shift into reverse and I forget what the Saab had (it's been almost 20 years) but there was some kind of interlock, I have never managed to shift into reverse accidentally but I suppose anything is possible. Reverse on the cars I can think of is way over in the upper-left, so nowhere near any of the gears I'd be using at speed. I know there are some other shift patterns out there though.
 


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