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Full-self-driving needs external infrastructure
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AlbertL:
Some of the recently-reported Tesla FSD "fails" have reinforced my opinion that the vehicles need external supporting infrastructure to operate safely - they can't do it by relying solely on their own sensors.

Specifically, I mean (1) a database accessible by the vehicle, maintained in real-time, of temporary conditions such as work zones and accident scenes that affect driving through an area, and (2) vehicle-readable optical/radio beacons, passive markers and other devices at critical locations such as intersections, that convey static and dynamic information needed for navigation at that point.

We already have external infrastructure, in the form of GPS, which eliminates the need for a vehicle to read directional signs.  These ideas would extend the concept to other key aspects of driving.

For example, consider the problem of a FSD vehicle failing to react to a person directing traffic.  Instead of trying to teach the vehicle to visually recognize those situations, imagine if the construction worker or first responder could just pull out a tablet, call up a map, and draw a box around the area to be protected.  The restriction would immediately go into a database and be relayed to the affected vehicles.  Those nearby would be ordered to slow down and change lanes, while those further away would be directed to alternate routes.               

 
ataradov:
Yes, for sure. But there is zero chance of that happening. US government stopped investing into public infrastructure (partially because they get sued by companies for that) and commercial companies will only have one goal - screw the competition and make as much money as possible. Then abandon it couple years later when they move on to the next fad.

Ideally there would also be some sort of a standard for machine-readable road marking and signs, but who is going to come up with this standard when half the states are trying to ban EVs. LOL.
pcprogrammer:
This was already known more then 25 years ago.

If you want something that is safer then a human driver you need a system that does not solely rely on it's own sensory. With GPS there is indeed extra information given to the system, but it is not reliable enough and does not work in tunnels. The driving system needs more data about the circumstances in it's direct presence. Like for instant the road can tell if it is icy, or that there is an obstruction around the corner.

A system I worked on in 1995-1996 for container transportation was designed around using road side beacons. Using IR data was send from one beacon to the next. Blocking a beam would then lead to the beacons next in line there is an obstruction ahead, and the vehicles, also picking up the IR communication, would know it has to stop. Here the intent was to have a private road with railroad tracks just for this system.

With better technology for data communication available it should be possible to create something more safe, but it takes a lot of investment.
nctnico:

--- Quote from: AlbertL on March 05, 2023, 06:12:21 am ---We already have external infrastructure, in the form of GPS, which eliminates the need for a vehicle to read directional signs. 

--- End quote ---
Let me stop you right there. GPS is not suitable for self driving cars -period-. The accuracy is way too low for that. I've seen GPS (using a really good, industrial receiver + antenna) get the wrong location by +/-150 meters when used in a car. So where is the car is actually driving? It could be several streets away. Take a wrong exit on purpose and look for how long your navigation system thinks you are still on the road you should have been on. It gets worse at big intersections.

On top of that GPS is way too fragile for this purpose as well as it can easely be spoofed using a $15 SDR dongle in a laptop. Think about the amount of mayhem a terrorist can do by spoofing GPS.

However there are efforts to develop positioning systems that are suitable for self driving cars. For example: https://www.tudelft.nl/citg/over-faculteit/afdelingen/geoscience-remote-sensing/research/projects/supergps
james_s:

--- Quote from: AlbertL on March 05, 2023, 06:12:21 am ---We already have external infrastructure, in the form of GPS, which eliminates the need for a vehicle to read directional signs.  These ideas would extend the concept to other key aspects of driving.

--- End quote ---

Have you ever tried using GPS in an urban environment where you are surrounded by tall buildings? It confuses the hell out of it.

I think it is obvious that Tesla will never achieve true FSD with the hardware they have. There are just too many edge cases, snow on the road, leaves, flooding, construction, worn markings, dirt/spray accumulation on the cameras, etc. There's just no way it will ever work consistently under less than ideal situations and for it to be practical it MUST work in all these cases. A human driver cannot be expected to take over at a moment's notice, that is not realistic at all.
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