Author Topic: "Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them)  (Read 79278 times)

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Offline tom66Topic starter

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I can't see any reason heating district heated water would be illegal.  Presumably you have a heatmeter and are billed on the energy consumed.  The only concern would be if the return flow was hotter than the inward flow, that might break something.
 

Offline MT

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So, not to derail this discussion excessively, but isn't this Great Reset finally rearing its ugly head?  ::)

Shush , not so loud, as they dont want to
« Last Edit: August 27, 2022, 06:11:03 pm by MT »
 

Offline nctnico

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I can't see any reason heating district heated water would be illegal.  Presumably you have a heatmeter and are billed on the energy consumed.  The only concern would be if the return flow was hotter than the inward flow, that might break something.
No. District heating is a ring system where hot water keeps flowing around to make sure there is always hot water at every point. If you open up the return, you'll notice the water is hot. After doing repairs / replacements I always fill the system back up by opening the return in order not to get billed for energy I'm not actually using.  8)

The trick with adding your own source is that you keep the return open so your system stays pressurised but you add the option for a local loop or the long loop. In local loop mode, there is no water flow coming from or to the district heating system. Your own source would need a pump though to keep the local loop going.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2022, 06:22:56 pm by nctnico »
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Offline Marco

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No. District heating is a ring system where hot water keeps flowing around to make sure there is always hot water at every point. If you open up the return, you'll notice the water is hot.

I assume it measures flow and exit temperature (probably input and output flow, to detect leaks). You get charged by the Joule and just measuring flow and assuming the exit temperature is near the input temperature would be a dangerous assumption to make, you would pay less for the same energy with more efficient radiators.

PS. after looking it up, it does measure input and exit temperature but only input flow. Enough to determine energy extraction.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2022, 07:05:56 pm by Marco »
 

Offline nctnico

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No. District heating is a ring system where hot water keeps flowing around to make sure there is always hot water at every point. If you open up the return, you'll notice the water is hot.

I assume it measures flow and exit temperature (probably input and output flow, to detect leaks). You get charged by the Joule and just measuring flow and assuming the exit temperature is near the input temperature would be a dangerous assumption to make, you would pay less for the same energy with more efficient radiators.
The meter that is installed in my house, measures flow and temperature difference between incoming and outgoing water. So it measures the energy (in Joule) that is being used by me.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tom66Topic starter

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Right: but no free energy, if you pull 1/4 the energy by heating up the inward flow, passing through rads and then back out to the district system then you haven't stolen any energy, you'll get billed correctly for 1/4 less heat.  Unless something fundamental is wrong with thermodynamics!
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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I assume it measures flow and exit temperature (probably input and output flow, to detect leaks). You get charged by the Joule and just measuring flow and assuming the exit temperature is near the input temperature would be a dangerous assumption to make, you would pay less for the same energy with more efficient radiators.

PS. after looking it up, it does measure input and exit temperature but only input flow. Enough to determine energy extraction.
I would be surprised if a modern meter doesn't sanity check the return flow, as described it would be possible to cheat the system by returning some water with only a small amount of heat extracted and dumping the rest down the drain after extracting a lot more heat.
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Offline nctnico

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I assume it measures flow and exit temperature (probably input and output flow, to detect leaks). You get charged by the Joule and just measuring flow and assuming the exit temperature is near the input temperature would be a dangerous assumption to make, you would pay less for the same energy with more efficient radiators.

PS. after looking it up, it does measure input and exit temperature but only input flow. Enough to determine energy extraction.
I would be surprised if a modern meter doesn't sanity check the return flow, as described it would be possible to cheat the system by returning some water with only a small amount of heat extracted and dumping the rest down the drain after extracting a lot more heat.
Nope. Only the inward flow is measured. But these systems are divided into smaller sections that serve a limited number of homes. Excessive water leaks are detected and the system shuts down for the section with a leak.
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Offline Siwastaja

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I guess you are talking about air to air heatpumps. Air to water is closer to 5-6000 EUR, and your home heating system must be compatible with low temperature radiators. Which mine is not.

Again: if air-to-water does not work for you, get air-to-air units. They maintain maximum possible COP without the compromise of having to produce too high output temperature, and can be retrofitted to nearly any house. Price should be no problem, good units start from 500-600 EUR and installation is a two-hour job, price of install is of course defined by the mafia and varies from 100EUR to maybe 1000EUR depending on where you live. It is not a total and complete solution, but it isn't supposed to be - just like you install PV regardless of it being unable to supply all your electricity.

Air to air heatpump is the cheapest and simplest way (per kWh produced) to tap into our unlimited renewable thermal energy resource (the planet itself).
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 08:56:11 am by Siwastaja »
 
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Offline Alti

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Another thing to know is that heat pumps can be switched remotely in Germany (via a dedicated power meter) to prevent grid overloads.
Could you provide some reference? What is the name of such service?
I did hear about off-peak resistive heating based on tariffs where the ON/OFF was driven by distribution company (based on time or remotely). However, a user could always override that, just paying higher tariff price. While your post suggests this is another application - stabilization of the grid where in some situations users are prevented from heating their houses.
 

Offline tom66Topic starter

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You can install air to air heatpumps yourself in the UK if they use propane, which some systems use although they seem to be uncommon now.

Anything using fluorinated gases requires training, which is about £1,000 to do, but probably cheaper than paying an air con tech.  But I can't bemoan anyone wanting to charge for their labour!
 

Offline nctnico

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You can install air to air heatpumps yourself in the UK if they use propane, which some systems use although they seem to be uncommon now.

Anything using fluorinated gases requires training, which is about £1,000 to do, but probably cheaper than paying an air con tech.
You can typically find an airco technician who wants to check & fill your system for a friendly price. But nowadays a lot of systems come prefilled. With some research, the right tools (all available from Aliexpress) and pre-made pipes (makes the flares correctly is a specialist job), it is very possible to install an airco yourself. I did that last year.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline madires

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Another thing to know is that heat pumps can be switched remotely in Germany (via a dedicated power meter) to prevent grid overloads.
Could you provide some reference? What is the name of such service?
I did hear about off-peak resistive heating based on tariffs where the ON/OFF was driven by distribution company (based on time or remotely). However, a user could always override that, just paying higher tariff price. While your post suggests this is another application - stabilization of the grid where in some situations users are prevented from heating their houses.

The term for this is 'EVU-Sperre' (simply search for this term, the corresponding law is ENWG). The electricity suppliers offer special tariffs for heat pumps which are a few cents lower (about 10ct lower, normal tariff is 30+ct). They will install a dedicated power meter for the heat pump which can be switched remotely. The drawback is that the electricity suppliers usually switch off the power for the heat pumps at peak times. But there are some rules they have to follow. For example, they can't switch off the heat pump for longer than two hours at a time. If you have only a heat pump for heating the house the maximum power-off time is 6h per day. So most electricity suppliers choose morning, noon and evening (3 * 2h). If you're happy to pay the normal power tariff you can run your heat pump without enforced breaks.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 01:13:47 pm by madires »
 
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Offline tom66Topic starter

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You can install air to air heatpumps yourself in the UK if they use propane, which some systems use although they seem to be uncommon now.

Anything using fluorinated gases requires training, which is about £1,000 to do, but probably cheaper than paying an air con tech.
You can typically find an airco technician who wants to check & fill your system for a friendly price. But nowadays a lot of systems come prefilled. With some research, the right tools (all available from Aliexpress) and pre-made pipes (makes the flares correctly is a specialist job), it is very possible to install an airco yourself. I did that last year.

Yes, but unfortunately even pre-filled systems it's illegal to do so, in the UK at least.

Now, whether you get, umm, any recourse for such actions is probably unlikely.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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The term for this is 'EVU-Sperre' (simply search for this term, the corresponding law is ENWG). The electricity suppliers offer special tariffs for heat pumps which are a few cents lower (about 10ct lower, normal tariff is 30+ct). They will install a dedicated power meter for the heat pump which can be switched remotely. The drawback is that the electricity suppliers usually switch off the power for the heat pumps at peak times. But there are some rules they have to follow. For example, they can't switch off the heat pump for longer than two hours at a time. If you have only a heat pump for heating the house the maximum power-off time is 6h per day. So most electricity suppliers choose morning, noon and evening (3 * 2h). If you're happy to pay the normal power tariff you can run your heat pump without enforced breaks.
Wouldn't it make more sense to have all electricity switch between the discounted and full rate with smart switches to disable devices at peak time? In that case, the heat pump could be required to have a smart switch and additional smart switches can be installed on other devices as the customer wishes.
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Offline Marco

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I guess you are talking about air to air heatpumps. Air to water is closer to 5-6000 EUR, and your home heating system must be compatible with low temperature radiators. Which mine is not.

I'm considering getting an air to water system with 3 FCUs for the living room and bed rooms, when the normal radiators can't put enough heat in the air, turn on the FCUs. In summer, decouple the radiator circuit and use the FCUs for cooling. Maybe add some booster fans in the normal radiators too.

Just need to find a distributor which doesn't try to sell FCUs for over two times the cost in Italy.

Assuming civil society is still functional next year of course.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 02:55:37 pm by Marco »
 

Offline nctnico

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If you still have radiators, consider swapping these for underfloor heating. It is a lot of work but underfloor heating is soooo much nicer compared to radiators that you forget about that the instant you feel the improved comfort of underfloor heating.
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Offline Alti

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The term for this is 'EVU-Sperre'
Energieversorgungsunternehmen.

What you describe is off-peak tariff. Comes in different flavors. Depending on specific country it can have local names like Economy 7(UK) or G12(PL). This is 60+ years old idea [1] so I am trying to understand the EVU-Sperre in the context of the above generic concept where price of the commodity varies in time and you decide whether you buy or not.

I did search for EVU-Sperre and googletranslated a random article about it  but I have no clue why does a distributor connect single load into this meter. Seems that they can discourage or even prevent the pump (and only pump) to turn on, even when it is cold in the house. Mind conceptually this is no different than setting two tariffs, one for €0.2/kWh and the other one for €2000/kWh so that no one sane is going to turn the pump on then, no matter how cold it is. This EVU-Sperre seems irrational at first glance, it over-complicates a simple and old idea. In case people need more heat (super cold winter, blackout, whatever), they are going to be forced to turn the resistive heating COP=1 on (because it costs €0.3/kWh whole day). Additionally you have two sets of wirings in the house with different price per kWh. One that is 0.2€ (for 18h/day) and the other one that is €0.3 (24h/day).  :palm:

Where is the trick? Seems like a setback of 60yo idea.

[1] Taschenbuch für Heizung und Klimatechnik
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 03:57:47 pm by Alti »
 

Offline madires

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Wouldn't it make more sense to have all electricity switch between the discounted and full rate with smart switches to disable devices at peak time? In that case, the heat pump could be required to have a smart switch and additional smart switches can be installed on other devices as the customer wishes.

That's the idea of smart meters, i.e. telling household appliances and other loads to turn on when power is less expensive. AFAIK, neither do we have the tariffs for this yet, nor a standardized remote control protocol for loads. There are a few appliances supporting some remote control protocol, but it's still very niche.
 

Offline nctnico

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Wouldn't it make more sense to have all electricity switch between the discounted and full rate with smart switches to disable devices at peak time? In that case, the heat pump could be required to have a smart switch and additional smart switches can be installed on other devices as the customer wishes.

That's the idea of smart meters, i.e. telling household appliances and other loads to turn on when power is less expensive. AFAIK, neither do we have the tariffs for this yet, nor a standardized remote control protocol for loads. There are a few appliances supporting some remote control protocol, but it's still very niche.
That is not true. Over here quite a low of people used to have electric water heaters (big drums with water) that where switched on during the night when electricity is cheaper and deliver hot water during the day. The remote control was done through modulating a signal on top of the 50Hz by the power company. This technology is from the 1960's or so. Nowadays it is no longer supported by most of the electricity suppliers because the use of these boilers has diminished. But nevertheless: the technology exists for a long time. AFAIK modulating a tone onto mains is or has been used for street lights as well.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 04:16:19 pm by nctnico »
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Offline madires

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Where is the trick? Seems like a setback of 60yo idea.

It seems to be a transitional solution until smart meters can control loads smartly. At the moment they are just expensive power meters which can phone home.
 
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Offline madires

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That is not true. Over here quite a low of people used to have electric water heaters (big drums with water) that where switched on during the night when electricity is cheaper and deliver hot water during the day. The remote control was done through modulating a signal on top of the 50Hz by the power company. This technology is from the 1960's or so. Nowadays it is no longer supported by most of the electricity suppliers because the use of these boilers has diminished. But nevertheless: the technology exists for a long time. AFAIK modulating a tone onto mains is or has been used for street lights as well.

We have this too for night storage heaters. However, this stuff is phased out and we're pushed to go for heat pumps. BTW, I was talking about controlling multiple loads individually.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 04:23:22 pm by madires »
 

Offline iMo

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..  However, gas prices were rising long before Russia decided to invade..
The gas/energy prices rose before the war, and they were rising because the insiders knew well since summer/autumn 2021 the war will start soon an it is inevitable. This war has been in preparation since January 1st 2000 and, btw., it was founded by the EU by its ~1billion Euro per day payments for the energy imports from those inviders, imho..
Readers discretion is advised..
 

Offline MT

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UK committing financial and industrial suicide, same as Germany is doing (DeutcheBank ie Rottenchilds, in a recent article suggest German citizens use firewood to heat homes) so enjoy your Great Reset and good riddance to you both!
 

Offline Alti

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That's the idea of smart meters, i.e. telling household appliances and other loads to turn on when power is less expensive.
This is how off-peak tariff worked for the last 60 years, there is no smartness in it. Some appliances are connected to dedicated circuit that powers up when the counter starts counting off-peak. Overrideable.

BTW, I was talking about controlling multiple loads individually.
Ok, now it makes sense, EVU-Sperre controls one load individually. A heat pump.
But the way they do it is not smart at all. I am getting old.
Quote from: Bosch
If neither a buffer tank nor underfloor heating can be used, an electric heating element can provide the required heat during off-times. However, this requires significantly more electricity than a heat pump and also draws electricity at the regular price.
Anyway, thanks, it was nice to know such "transitional solution", I would have never thought about a tariff where a user looses the right to control when to turn on an appliance with COP=3 and is left with the only choice to turn on an appliance with COP=1 (and three times the power)..
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 06:55:35 pm by Alti »
 


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