Author Topic: "Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them)  (Read 79259 times)

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Offline JohanH

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Ridiculous thing is if you had an A2A fitted as part of the "renewable heat incentive" the air conditioning mode had to be disabled.  Even if you personally spend many thousands of pounds on it, they do not allow a function that exists in the unit to be used.

Fortunately on most indoor units, it's just a dip-switch to turn it on again.

That's crazy!
 

Offline Marco

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Also if you mention heat pump, no Dutch person will think about air conditioning. If I go to the website of any HVAC company, it will be a different category. I guess it's the lack of awareness which is the biggest issue. Also no subsidy for air conditioning, because... Well because it would make sense, and that's not what governments do.

There's a shortage of installers and they seem more interested in doing the simplest possible installs than innovating. FCUs are boutique here, shops trying to sell them for over twice the cost in Italy.

If the installers tapped a low cost source of FCUs and offered them for installs it would kill two birds with one stone, the limited power output of older radiators by letting the FCU jump in and cooling. With heat waves fresh in memory it wouldn't be a hard sell.
 
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Offline madires

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Ridiculous thing is if you had an A2A fitted as part of the "renewable heat incentive" the air conditioning mode had to be disabled.  Even if you personally spend many thousands of pounds on it, they do not allow a function that exists in the unit to be used.

Fortunately on most indoor units, it's just a dip-switch to turn it on again.

That's crazy!

Yep! And such nonsense regulations are also the reason why in some countries reasonable things sometimes aren't done. For example, if my family would install a PV system we would be forced to found a company and become an electricity supplier because we have a tenant. Without the tenant we could install 10kWp and would have only minimal paperwork.
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Yep! And such nonsense regulations are also the reason why in some countries reasonable things sometimes aren't done. For example, if my family would install a PV system we would be forced to found a company and become an electricity supplier because we have a tenant. Without the tenant we could install 10kWp and would have only minimal paperwork.

 :palm: :palm: :palm:
 

Online themadhippy

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Quote
. You guys seems to be perfectly capable to shooting yourself in the foot for no reason every time.
Rubbish we have a good reason,we like to maximize the profit  for a  few.Gas storage is a fine example.Why pay for repairs when we can pass the savings  onto the shareholders.
 

Offline Zero999

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And there was a toilet paper shortage not that long ago, artificially created, and done by mass hysteria.
The russians have a name for these people, it's UI or useful idiots.
We are prepared, the gas storage in Germany is 80% full, and it's enough for months. The only loosing method for us is to change policies. Otherwise let the Ukranians and Lockheed Martin and the others take care of the situation.
I'm not sure about the UK though. You guys seems to be perfectly capable to shooting yourself in the foot for no reason every time.

To be clear I'm fully in support of Ukraine and if it means high gas prices, so be it.  However I know the average person in the UK may be lucky to have £100 to their name by the end of the month - they simply cannot afford a £500/m energy bill.  Therefore I wonder if the resolve in Europe and UK will begin to crumble.

If, indeed, it is just a short term hike in prices, and in a year or two things return to normal, then I think it could be managed. Support can be given to those on the lowest incomes, and businesses will just have to be frugal with gas.  Inevitably there will be some economic shrinkage, but I don't think it will be a total disaster as some have predicted.

However, if the war in Ukraine drags on for half a decade, as some have suggested, then it becomes a lot more existential for the EU.  The absolute earliest Germany will have enough LNG *terminals* is 2027 and there's an even longer lead time on the ships.

The UK is currently bringing the Rough storage facility back online but still we will have under a month of storage.  However we do have three LNG terminals, which are regularly used and have contracts for supply set up already.  This is probably one reason why the gas price in the UK has not risen as high as it has in the EU, in relative terms to the 2019 average.  (It is about 12x for UK, 18x for EU.)
Is it really helping Ukraine? I question how much of an impact on Russia the sanctions are really having. I can't see that war ending any time soon.

As far as heat pumps are concerned. What tariff are you on? For me gas is 4 times cheaper than electricity and my energy usage is very low, because I like cold showers, so it's not worth it, at this stage.
 

Offline tom66Topic starter

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Is it really helping Ukraine? I question how much of an impact on Russia the sanctions are really having. I can't see that war ending any time soon.

As far as heat pumps are concerned. What tariff are you on? For me gas is 4 times cheaper than electricity and my energy usage is very low, because I like cold showers, so it's not worth it, at this stage.

I don't think the sanctions are strictly helping Ukraine in the short term, but they could have a benefit.  Any technology or financial restriction will make it harder to replace weapons that are destroyed.  It's been reported that around 25% of all S400 systems that Russia owns have now been destroyed by the Ukranians - these require technology from the West, such as advanced radar engines and FPGAs that are now under sanction.  While Russia can probably source these from other locations, e.g. China, it will make it more expensive and more difficult, which will limit the rate at which they can build new S400's.

Now, whether that makes a difference in the war in the longer term is more questionable.  It really is a case of making sure that Ukraine can resist Russia, to either the point where they withdraw because the losses are insurmountable, or because they can no longer achieve their aims with the resources remaining.  It's more or less been in stalemate for the last 3 months, with Ukraine very slowly pushing back, but without enormously obvious progress in either direction.

The other question is let's say EU gets around the negotiation table with Putin to ask for more gas: do you think he's only going to ask for sanctions to be lifted, or do you think he'll want to see a complete withdrawal of NATO support?  I suspect the latter.  While EU doesn't control NATO - they could apply pressure within member states and on the US to ratchet things back.

As for heatpumps, I think they make a lot more sense if solar can contribute to your energy input, but at a COP of 4 they could still be better than a gas boiler (~80-85% efficient in a typical install.)
 

Offline Zero999

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Is it really helping Ukraine? I question how much of an impact on Russia the sanctions are really having. I can't see that war ending any time soon.

As far as heat pumps are concerned. What tariff are you on? For me gas is 4 times cheaper than electricity and my energy usage is very low, because I like cold showers, so it's not worth it, at this stage.

I don't think the sanctions are strictly helping Ukraine in the short term, but they could have a benefit.  Any technology or financial restriction will make it harder to replace weapons that are destroyed.  It's been reported that around 25% of all S400 systems that Russia owns have now been destroyed by the Ukranians - these require technology from the West, such as advanced radar engines and FPGAs that are now under sanction.  While Russia can probably source these from other locations, e.g. China, it will make it more expensive and more difficult, which will limit the rate at which they can build new S400's.

Now, whether that makes a difference in the war in the longer term is more questionable.  It really is a case of making sure that Ukraine can resist Russia, to either the point where they withdraw because the losses are insurmountable, or because they can no longer achieve their aims with the resources remaining.  It's more or less been in stalemate for the last 3 months, with Ukraine very slowly pushing back, but without enormously obvious progress in either direction.

The other question is let's say EU gets around the negotiation table with Putin to ask for more gas: do you think he's only going to ask for sanctions to be lifted, or do you think he'll want to see a complete withdrawal of NATO support?  I suspect the latter.  While EU doesn't control NATO - they could apply pressure within member states and on the US to ratchet things back.
I'm cynical about the propaganda pumped out by the mainstream media.

I don't support Putin, but the EU, along with NATO are partly responsible for this mess in the first place. If they promised Russia they weren't going to expand eastwards and kept to it and stopped interfering, then Russia would be happy to supply gas at a decent price.

Quote
As for heatpumps, I think they make a lot more sense if solar can contribute to your energy input, but at a COP of 4 they could still be better than a gas boiler (~80-85% efficient in a typical install.)
Solar panels are useless in the winter. I don't use much  energy. It was just 757kW of gas and 830kW of electricity last year. I have a combi boiler and radiators with thin pipes designed for very hot water. I'm better off putting more money into paying off the mortgage, than buying a heat pump. I don't drive, so I won't buy an EV.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 07:13:25 pm by Zero999 »
 
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Offline tom66Topic starter

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I don't support Putin, but the EU, along with NATO are partly responsible for this mess in the first place. If they promised Russia they weren't going to expand eastwards and kept to it and stopped interfering, then Russia would be happy to supply gas at a decent price.

Nah.  I don't accept this at all.  Remember, Putin invaded Crimea and was funding DPR separatists well before any talk of Ukraine joining NATO was there.   DPR separatists using Russian military technology were the cause of MH17's untimely end and the death of 298 completely innocent civilians.  Also, Ukraine offered to withdraw any suggestion of ascension to NATO just after the invasion as a compromise.  Putin is responsible for this war, not the EU.  It's the fact that the EU and NATO were willing to support Ukraine so significantly that threw him off course.  While we can't know his exact plans, it seems he's given up on the prize of Kyiv and instead wants to just annex a significant coastal area of Ukraine to weaken the state further. 

Now, could the EU negotiate an arrangement with Putin?  Possibly, but I don't see a negotiation where Ukraine doesn't become at the very least in a permanent stalemate (a bit like the Koreas) but even then that might be an optimistic outcome, more likely he will want a puppet state like Belarus on his border. That can only be achieved by NATO withdrawing support, Ukraine runs out of weapons and intelligence and Kyiv eventually falls.
 

Offline Zero999

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I don't support Putin, but the EU, along with NATO are partly responsible for this mess in the first place. If they promised Russia they weren't going to expand eastwards and kept to it and stopped interfering, then Russia would be happy to supply gas at a decent price.

Nah.  I don't accept this at all.  Remember, Putin invaded Crimea and was funding DPR separatists well before any talk of Ukraine joining NATO was there.   DPR separatists using Russian military technology were the cause of MH17's untimely end and the death of 298 completely innocent civilians.  Also, Ukraine offered to withdraw any suggestion of ascension to NATO just after the invasion as a compromise.  Putin is responsible for this war, not the EU.  It's the fact that the EU and NATO were willing to support Ukraine so significantly that threw him off course.  While we can't know his exact plans, it seems he's given up on the prize of Kyiv and instead wants to just annex a significant coastal area of Ukraine to weaken the state further. 

Now, could the EU negotiate an arrangement with Putin?  Possibly, but I don't see a negotiation where Ukraine doesn't become at the very least in a permanent stalemate (a bit like the Koreas) but even then that might be an optimistic outcome, more likely he will want a puppet state like Belarus on his border. That can only be achieved by NATO withdrawing support, Ukraine runs out of weapons and intelligence and Kyiv eventually falls.
It goes back further than that. The invasion of Crimea was triggered by NATO/EU interference. The mainstream media appear to have forgotten a lot of the history. You need to look at things from the Russian perspective. Here's a link to an essay and video, which explains it quite well.
https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf
YouTube video

The war won't end, because there are Russian supporters from within Ukraine. Ukraine needs to make a deal with Russia and the West must promise to leave things be.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 07:11:43 pm by Zero999 »
 

Offline tom66Topic starter

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There's no doubt that the US gave a little push to Ukraine to get them going in a more desirable direction, but Euromaidan was going to happen regardless and that's the reason Yanukovych fell, it was not US interventions that caused that.  And the Ukrainians deciding to democratically elect the former comedian/actor Zelenskyy and push more towards EU/NATO alignment is their decision as a sovereign nation.  Again, I maintain that Russia's actions are not justifiable, in any way.   The fact that they use the claim of "denazifying" Ukraine shows how sincere they are.

For what it's worth,  I don't see any compromise that doesn't involve Ukraine losing at least DPR/LPR and probably Crimea.  EU/Ukraine/Russia need to agree to hold democratic elections in those territories and agree to abide by the results.  If they vote one way or another that's accepted and the end of it. 
 

Offline Zero999

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There's no doubt that the US gave a little push to Ukraine to get them going in a more desirable direction, but Euromaidan was going to happen regardless and that's the reason Yanukovych fell, it was not US interventions that caused that.  And the Ukrainians deciding to democratically elect the former comedian/actor Zelenskyy and push more towards EU/NATO alignment is their decision as a sovereign nation.  Again, I maintain that Russia's actions are not justifiable, in any way.   The fact that they use the claim of "denazifying" Ukraine shows how sincere they are.

For what it's worth,  I don't see any compromise that doesn't involve Ukraine losing at least DPR/LPR and probably Crimea.  EU/Ukraine/Russia need to agree to hold democratic elections in those territories and agree to abide by the results.  If they vote one way or another that's accepted and the end of it.
A desirable direction to whom? Don't forget some Ukrainians support Russia.

The problem with propaganda is there's some element of truth to it. I can confirm there are Nazis in Ukraine. I've been there and witnessed it myself. It goes back to the Germans helping some Ukrainians, during the WW2. Obviously, Zelenskyy is no Nazi, neither are most Ukrainians and that's no justification for it. My point is, some of the money sent by the West is going to Nazis. 

Again, I'm not supporting what Russia is doing, but Zelenskyy is no angel either.

 

Offline RoGeorge

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There's no doubt that the US gave a little push to Ukraine to get them going in a more desirable direction, but Euromaidan was going to happen regardless and that's the reason Yanukovych fell, it was not US interventions that caused that.  And the Ukrainians deciding to democratically elect the former comedian/actor Zelenskyy and push more towards EU/NATO alignment is their decision as a sovereign nation.  Again, I maintain that Russia's actions are not justifiable, in any way.   The fact that they use the claim of "denazifying" Ukraine shows how sincere they are.

For what it's worth,  I don't see any compromise that doesn't involve Ukraine losing at least DPR/LPR and probably Crimea.  EU/Ukraine/Russia need to agree to hold democratic elections in those territories and agree to abide by the results.  If they vote one way or another that's accepted and the end of it.

Propaganda is very high right now.  From both sides.
Lies through the teeth are casual news these days.   :-\



The posted video is, in fact, a very long playlist.  Seen in there some very scary things that allegedly happened in Ukraine.  Maybe Ukrainian users here can infirm/confirm those videos.  Those are not the only ones that diverge from the official narrative.  There is also a couple of episodes documentary/interview with Putin.

So far, to me Putin was more convincing than the Jews.  I was never a sympathizer, nor a hater of any of them, it's just how it seems to me.  Very sad that the Ukraine people right now are sacrificed, and the whole western world is getting serious financial and economic damage too, by corrupted government and stupid blanket laws.  The ones who prosper are those who sell and test weapons.  The "help" for Ukraine is not free, it's in fact debt to be payed maybe 2-5 generations from now on.  The very few, very rich, and very powerful globalist are the only ones that will benefit.  We are all (in the West) spending money for the generations to come right now.  More borrows, more interest, more independence lost for financial clemency.

The very rich will get richer, the rest will get poorer, and plenty of youngsters will be killed in the process.  I think it's time to speak our minds, or get economically enslaved for the next 50-100 years to come, maybe thrown in a WW3 that will trash the whole Western world.

The Ukraine war was to come, and prepared for almost a decade now.
I'm afraid Ukraine is just the scapegoat here, the bet is much higher.

I'm very sad for all the civilians and the soldiers too, both Ukrainian and Russian, and other nationalities, too.

Offline tszaboo

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Propaganda is very high right now.  From both sides.
Lies through the teeth are casual news these days.   :-\
Look up the word gosvranyo. The point of it is that russian state media lies, and never tells the truth. And it does it like a psychopath, and you are not prepared for that, at all. If you are presented with 100% lies, you will think that maybe only 80% of it are lies. And maybe its the same from both sides. And then they already put the propaganda and fake news in your brain, and then you go online and tell others that you believe.
 
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Offline tom66Topic starter

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I never like the argument "well both sides lie and so therefore you have to accept nothing is true".

I mean on the face of it. You're not wrong.  There is propaganda on both sides.  If you genuinely believe the Ukranians have killed 46,000 Russians but only lost 9,000 of their own (yet are struggling to find men to push into Kherson) then yeah, you're a fool, because of course that's just propaganda. 

But there are a few things to realise.

In Russia it is illegal to call the invasion what it is, which is a war against Ukraine.  It is illegal to publish anything condemning or criticising the war.  It is de-facto illegal to oppose actions of Putin publicly, because you will disappear/be arrested/be poisoned/be defenestrated. 

There is no world in which it is a justifiable action to invade another country to "denazify" it, even if there are actually nazis inside the Azov regiment for instance.  You can economically sanction it, petition the UN, demand for change, public outcry.  But invasion - in which thousands of civilians have their lives uprooted, or are just plain killed, is not acceptable.

And if Russia's stated goal is honest - to "denazify" the state - why do they constantly hit civilian infrastructure?  Shopping malls, apartment blocks, schools and hospitals.  These are not legitimate military targets. 

Russia is a terrorist state - and attempting to justify their actions is no better than justifying 9/11 by saying that the US had tampered too much with the Middle East.
 
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Offline Zero999

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I repeat. I don't support the actions of Russia in Ukraine. It's just there's a lot more to is than we're led to believe. The sanctions don't appear to be making any difference. China seems to have made friends with Russia again. All it's doing is hurting us. It's all a big mess. We really aught to step back and keep our noses out.
 

Online tautech

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I repeat. I don't support the actions of Russia in Ukraine. It's just there's a lot more to is than we're led to believe. The sanctions don't appear to be making any difference. China seems to have made friends with Russia again. All it's doing is hurting us. It's all a big mess. We really aught to step back and keep our noses out.
And how could you know if you might be next ?
Unsavory as it is a statement needed to be made by the west months ago and wasn't therefore the bed is made and now we must lie in it.
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Offline tom66Topic starter

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I repeat. I don't support the actions of Russia in Ukraine. It's just there's a lot more to is than we're led to believe. The sanctions don't appear to be making any difference. China seems to have made friends with Russia again. All it's doing is hurting us. It's all a big mess. We really aught to step back and keep our noses out.

No effect? Are you kidding?

https://www.globsec.org/news/yes-it-hurts-measuring-the-effects-of-western-sanctions-against-russia/

- Some industries have seen over 97% decline in sales in niche areas, 63% in cars, 60% in white goods: these industries are decimated
- Inflation of 17.1% (Russian statistic) or 25% (Western analysis)
- Central bank rate set up to 20%
- Imports fallen by 50%
- Withdrawal of major post-Soviet capitalist corporations,  e.g. McDonalds, Coca-Cola, Volkswagen...  These companies are not coming back
- Real wages fallen almost 10%
- Significant reduction in sale price per barrel of oil due to EU embargoes, and more costly to sell to Asia
- No options to sell natural gas outside of EU, essentially destroying their industry here
- Loss of over $300bn in capital in EU banks that is under restriction
 
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Offline langwadt

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There's no doubt that the US gave a little push to Ukraine to get them going in a more desirable direction, but Euromaidan was going to happen regardless and that's the reason Yanukovych fell, it was not US interventions that caused that.  And the Ukrainians deciding to democratically elect the former comedian/actor Zelenskyy and push more towards EU/NATO alignment is their decision as a sovereign nation.  Again, I maintain that Russia's actions are not justifiable, in any way.   The fact that they use the claim of "denazifying" Ukraine shows how sincere they are.

For what it's worth,  I don't see any compromise that doesn't involve Ukraine losing at least DPR/LPR and probably Crimea.  EU/Ukraine/Russia need to agree to hold democratic elections in those territories and agree to abide by the results.  If they vote one way or another that's accepted and the end of it.
A desirable direction to whom? Don't forget some Ukrainians support Russia.

The problem with propaganda is there's some element of truth to it. I can confirm there are Nazis in Ukraine. I've been there and witnessed it myself. It goes back to the Germans helping some Ukrainians, during the WW2. Obviously, Zelenskyy is no Nazi, neither are most Ukrainians and that's no justification for it. My point is, some of the money sent by the West is going to Nazis. 

Again, I'm not supporting what Russia is doing, but Zelenskyy is no angel either.

the Azov Battalion fighting the Russian annexation obviously had Nazi ideologies, afaiu the Nazi figures at the top were removed and the battalion integrated into the regular army as special forces (you don't get rid of experienced soldiers when in a war)

and Putin is using that as a justification for Ukraine being Nazi, while he himself also have neo-nazis fighting on the Russian side
 

Offline langwadt

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I repeat. I don't support the actions of Russia in Ukraine. It's just there's a lot more to is than we're led to believe. The sanctions don't appear to be making any difference. China seems to have made friends with Russia again. All it's doing is hurting us. It's all a big mess. We really aught to step back and keep our noses out.

No effect? Are you kidding?

https://www.globsec.org/news/yes-it-hurts-measuring-the-effects-of-western-sanctions-against-russia/

- Some industries have seen over 97% decline in sales in niche areas, 63% in cars, 60% in white goods: these industries are decimated
- Inflation of 17.1% (Russian statistic) or 25% (Western analysis)
- Central bank rate set up to 20%
- Imports fallen by 50%
- Withdrawal of major post-Soviet capitalist corporations,  e.g. McDonalds, Coca-Cola, Volkswagen...  These companies are not coming back
- Real wages fallen almost 10%
- Significant reduction in sale price per barrel of oil due to EU embargoes, and more costly to sell to Asia
- No options to sell natural gas outside of EU, essentially destroying their industry here
- Loss of over $300bn in capital in EU banks that is under restriction

and their airlines are doomed, most of their planes are western planes that can no longer get maintenance or spare parts, some of the newer Russian planes use western engines. Most of the planes were leased so they should by contract have been returned
when the sanctions started, they weren't and a now effectively scrap with no maintenance. The leasing companies are probably not very keen on leasing them more planes when this is over
 
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Offline Zero999

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But we're also experiencing economic hardship. It doesn't appear to be making much difference to the war. I can see China stepping in to help.
 

Online tautech

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I repeat. I don't support the actions of Russia in Ukraine. It's just there's a lot more to is than we're led to believe. The sanctions don't appear to be making any difference. China seems to have made friends with Russia again. All it's doing is hurting us. It's all a big mess. We really aught to step back and keep our noses out.

No effect? Are you kidding?

https://www.globsec.org/news/yes-it-hurts-measuring-the-effects-of-western-sanctions-against-russia/

- Some industries have seen over 97% decline in sales in niche areas, 63% in cars, 60% in white goods: these industries are decimated
- Inflation of 17.1% (Russian statistic) or 25% (Western analysis)
- Central bank rate set up to 20%
- Imports fallen by 50%
- Withdrawal of major post-Soviet capitalist corporations,  e.g. McDonalds, Coca-Cola, Volkswagen...  These companies are not coming back
- Real wages fallen almost 10%
- Significant reduction in sale price per barrel of oil due to EU embargoes, and more costly to sell to Asia
- No options to sell natural gas outside of EU, essentially destroying their industry here
- Loss of over $300bn in capital in EU banks that is under restriction

and their airlines are doomed, most of their planes are western planes that can no longer get maintenance or spare parts, some of the newer Russian planes use western engines. Most of the planes were leased so they should by contract have been returned
when the sanctions started, they weren't and a now effectively scrap with no maintenance. The leasing companies are probably not very keen on leasing them more planes when this is over
Be that as it may, unfortunately I believe they still make their own tanks and the engines for them.  :(
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Offline Faringdon

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Isnt fracking the way forward now?
Doesnt it solve everything?
And theres loads of coal in EU and UK.
Ban Aircon.
Ban heating on if people arent already wearing coats indoors.
Scarfs wooly hats indoors.
Have heavy sleeping clothes.
Indoor sleeping tents.
How many places i have worked where the heating was on when it didnt need to be.
Street lights off.

Showers which auto turn off after one minute.....you can turn it on again for another minute...but itll be a reminder to finish up quick.

What about mini power stations getting set up all over the place...ones that can burn coal.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 11:54:00 pm by Faringdon »
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Offline tom66Topic starter

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But we're also experiencing economic hardship. It doesn't appear to be making much difference to the war. I can see China stepping in to help.

It probably won't make much difference in the short term.   Russia has substantial reserves of equipment, though they will struggle to replace anything that is specialist or reliant on imported parts due to sanctions.

But in the longer term it increasingly makes the war increasingly non-viable as a route forward.  And the more difficult and more painful it is both for ordinary Russians and the wealthy elite, including oligarchs, the more precarious Putin's position is.  Putin only cares about whether he lives another day or not.  If that's in danger, he'll order a withdrawal, even if it makes him look weaker.

I don't - honestly - know who will blink first.  If I were a betting man, I would suggest the EU's resolve would be weaker, but there may be a compromise where both sides save face. 
 

Offline Faringdon

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This war may not  be about ukraine...it may be about the arctic, and ukraine is just to see what  weapons the other side has got.
Arctic (north pole) is the big big prize here.
Packed full of oil and minerals.

With Putin you never know...he could fire off nukes on Ukraine, or just get up and leave ukraine totally alone...having  now had a wee  "look" at what  weapons the West have got.

I reckon Putin saw that video of Zelensky skipping and  jumping about in that Teddy suit, and thought he was soft, so thought he'd "have a poke" and see,
« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 11:57:43 pm by Faringdon »
'Perfection' is the enemy of 'perfectly satisfactory'
 


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