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"Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them)
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tom66:
There's no doubt that the US gave a little push to Ukraine to get them going in a more desirable direction, but Euromaidan was going to happen regardless and that's the reason Yanukovych fell, it was not US interventions that caused that.  And the Ukrainians deciding to democratically elect the former comedian/actor Zelenskyy and push more towards EU/NATO alignment is their decision as a sovereign nation.  Again, I maintain that Russia's actions are not justifiable, in any way.   The fact that they use the claim of "denazifying" Ukraine shows how sincere they are.

For what it's worth,  I don't see any compromise that doesn't involve Ukraine losing at least DPR/LPR and probably Crimea.  EU/Ukraine/Russia need to agree to hold democratic elections in those territories and agree to abide by the results.  If they vote one way or another that's accepted and the end of it. 
Zero999:

--- Quote from: tom66 on August 29, 2022, 07:20:15 pm ---There's no doubt that the US gave a little push to Ukraine to get them going in a more desirable direction, but Euromaidan was going to happen regardless and that's the reason Yanukovych fell, it was not US interventions that caused that.  And the Ukrainians deciding to democratically elect the former comedian/actor Zelenskyy and push more towards EU/NATO alignment is their decision as a sovereign nation.  Again, I maintain that Russia's actions are not justifiable, in any way.   The fact that they use the claim of "denazifying" Ukraine shows how sincere they are.

For what it's worth,  I don't see any compromise that doesn't involve Ukraine losing at least DPR/LPR and probably Crimea.  EU/Ukraine/Russia need to agree to hold democratic elections in those territories and agree to abide by the results.  If they vote one way or another that's accepted and the end of it.

--- End quote ---
A desirable direction to whom? Don't forget some Ukrainians support Russia.

The problem with propaganda is there's some element of truth to it. I can confirm there are Nazis in Ukraine. I've been there and witnessed it myself. It goes back to the Germans helping some Ukrainians, during the WW2. Obviously, Zelenskyy is no Nazi, neither are most Ukrainians and that's no justification for it. My point is, some of the money sent by the West is going to Nazis. 

Again, I'm not supporting what Russia is doing, but Zelenskyy is no angel either.

RoGeorge:

--- Quote from: tom66 on August 29, 2022, 07:20:15 pm ---There's no doubt that the US gave a little push to Ukraine to get them going in a more desirable direction, but Euromaidan was going to happen regardless and that's the reason Yanukovych fell, it was not US interventions that caused that.  And the Ukrainians deciding to democratically elect the former comedian/actor Zelenskyy and push more towards EU/NATO alignment is their decision as a sovereign nation.  Again, I maintain that Russia's actions are not justifiable, in any way.   The fact that they use the claim of "denazifying" Ukraine shows how sincere they are.

For what it's worth,  I don't see any compromise that doesn't involve Ukraine losing at least DPR/LPR and probably Crimea.  EU/Ukraine/Russia need to agree to hold democratic elections in those territories and agree to abide by the results.  If they vote one way or another that's accepted and the end of it.

--- End quote ---

Propaganda is very high right now.  From both sides.
Lies through the teeth are casual news these days.   :-\



The posted video is, in fact, a very long playlist.  Seen in there some very scary things that allegedly happened in Ukraine.  Maybe Ukrainian users here can infirm/confirm those videos.  Those are not the only ones that diverge from the official narrative.  There is also a couple of episodes documentary/interview with Putin.

So far, to me Putin was more convincing than the Jews.  I was never a sympathizer, nor a hater of any of them, it's just how it seems to me.  Very sad that the Ukraine people right now are sacrificed, and the whole western world is getting serious financial and economic damage too, by corrupted government and stupid blanket laws.  The ones who prosper are those who sell and test weapons.  The "help" for Ukraine is not free, it's in fact debt to be payed maybe 2-5 generations from now on.  The very few, very rich, and very powerful globalist are the only ones that will benefit.  We are all (in the West) spending money for the generations to come right now.  More borrows, more interest, more independence lost for financial clemency.

The very rich will get richer, the rest will get poorer, and plenty of youngsters will be killed in the process.  I think it's time to speak our minds, or get economically enslaved for the next 50-100 years to come, maybe thrown in a WW3 that will trash the whole Western world.

The Ukraine war was to come, and prepared for almost a decade now.
I'm afraid Ukraine is just the scapegoat here, the bet is much higher.

I'm very sad for all the civilians and the soldiers too, both Ukrainian and Russian, and other nationalities, too.
tszaboo:

--- Quote from: RoGeorge on August 29, 2022, 08:41:53 pm ---Propaganda is very high right now.  From both sides.
Lies through the teeth are casual news these days.   :-\

--- End quote ---
Look up the word gosvranyo. The point of it is that russian state media lies, and never tells the truth. And it does it like a psychopath, and you are not prepared for that, at all. If you are presented with 100% lies, you will think that maybe only 80% of it are lies. And maybe its the same from both sides. And then they already put the propaganda and fake news in your brain, and then you go online and tell others that you believe.
tom66:
I never like the argument "well both sides lie and so therefore you have to accept nothing is true".

I mean on the face of it. You're not wrong.  There is propaganda on both sides.  If you genuinely believe the Ukranians have killed 46,000 Russians but only lost 9,000 of their own (yet are struggling to find men to push into Kherson) then yeah, you're a fool, because of course that's just propaganda. 

But there are a few things to realise.

In Russia it is illegal to call the invasion what it is, which is a war against Ukraine.  It is illegal to publish anything condemning or criticising the war.  It is de-facto illegal to oppose actions of Putin publicly, because you will disappear/be arrested/be poisoned/be defenestrated. 

There is no world in which it is a justifiable action to invade another country to "denazify" it, even if there are actually nazis inside the Azov regiment for instance.  You can economically sanction it, petition the UN, demand for change, public outcry.  But invasion - in which thousands of civilians have their lives uprooted, or are just plain killed, is not acceptable.

And if Russia's stated goal is honest - to "denazify" the state - why do they constantly hit civilian infrastructure?  Shopping malls, apartment blocks, schools and hospitals.  These are not legitimate military targets. 

Russia is a terrorist state - and attempting to justify their actions is no better than justifying 9/11 by saying that the US had tampered too much with the Middle East.
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