Author Topic: "Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them)  (Read 79246 times)

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Online tautech

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But we're also experiencing economic hardship. It doesn't appear to be making much difference to the war. I can see China stepping in to help.

It probably won't make much difference in the short term.   Russia has substantial reserves of equipment, though they will struggle to replace anything that is specialist or reliant on imported parts due to sanctions.

But in the longer term it increasingly makes the war increasingly non-viable as a route forward.  And the more difficult and more painful it is both for ordinary Russians and the wealthy elite, including oligarchs, the more precarious Putin's position is.  Putin only cares about whether he lives another day or not.  If that's in danger, he'll order a withdrawal, even if it makes him look weaker.

I don't - honestly - know who will blink first.  If I were a betting man, I would suggest the EU's resolve would be weaker, but there may be a compromise where both sides save face.
Trouble is as yet there is no common pain that pushes either to put feet under the negotiation table and when one party is governed by ‘my way or the highway’ it’s unlikely any resolution is to come about soon.  :(
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Offline nctnico

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- Withdrawal of major post-Soviet capitalist corporations,  e.g. McDonalds, Coca-Cola, Volkswagen...  These companies are not coming back
Yes they are. Their withdrawal is just superficial. The minute the war is over, those companies will be back in seconds.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline BravoV

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... The sanctions don't appear to be making any difference.....

It does, big time ... its just the mainstream media in EU & UK are trying so hard to suppress this historical change that is happening, or trying so hard to make it much more milder.

Heck, my German friend currently living there, said there are a lot of people there still think and "believe" Russia is about to surrender/regime change/Zelensky's troop marches to Moscow/Putin coup/etc, what ever fantasy as propaganda media pumped out to them will happen soon ... before this winter, just can't believe the delusional level at mass level, the brain washing propaganda machine there must be very-very good and effective throughout EU & UK.  :-DD

This event is so historical and so huge, that is being suppressed by the medias there, is now popping out in US, in this popular Tucker Carlson segment, like him or not, he is merely stating a bitter truth about what to come in Europe.


Offline BravoV

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- Withdrawal of major post-Soviet capitalist corporations,  e.g. McDonalds, Coca-Cola, Volkswagen...  These companies are not coming back
Yes they are. Their withdrawal is just superficial. The minute the war is over, those companies will be back in seconds.

Regarding Coca-cola .. here what happened in Russia.

Quote ...

"Coca-Cola reluctant to leave Russia

The US soft-drink maker will change its iconic name and remain on the market

US soft-drink giant Coca-Cola will sell its iconic product in Russia under the Dobry Cola brand, according to the founder of the Teremok fast-food chain, Mikhail Goncharov.

“We have received notice from Coca-Cola that the drink will now be called Dobry Cola, the one that was previously Coca-Cola. We will try to sell it,” Goncharov said on Friday, as quoted by Interfax.

The new soft drink will have to compete with Russian companies that have launched their own colas, he added.

Interfax also cited a letter to employees from Coca-Cola HBC CEO Zoran Bogdanovich, in which he announced the cessation of production and sale of Coca-Cola brands in Russia.

The US company announced plans to suspend business in Russia in March, joining the exodus of other iconic Western brands, including McDonalds, amid sanctions over the conflict in Ukraine.
"



The source -> https://www.rt.com/business/561623-coca-cola-rebranding-russia/

PS : The web site above is probably banned throughout EU & UK countries and probably US too (but accessible thru VPN), as the people are too dumb to read and decide for them self, and probably will be brainwashed by bad propaganda, according the gov. top officials, viva democrazy and freedom of speech ...  and hail "Dobry Cola" ..  :-DD
« Last Edit: August 30, 2022, 04:01:21 am by BravoV »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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There is a gigantic delusion indeed from the masses.
From our political leaders... I dunno. Still don't know if it's delusion or if it's just intentional. Yeah, I know. Nobody wants to hear that.

Oh as to McDonald's... it only took a couple weeks for the russian group getting control of the restaurants to re-open under a new russian name and continue as usual. With practically the same menus except for the names.

 

Offline vad

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I don't support Putin, but the EU, along with NATO are partly responsible for this mess in the first place. If they promised Russia they weren't going to expand eastwards and kept to it and stopped interfering
This is Russian propaganda. There is no a single international agreement, ratified by any NATO member state or not, that spells out such promises.
 
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Offline vad

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The problem with propaganda is there's some element of truth to it. I can confirm there are Nazis in Ukraine. I've been there and witnessed it myself. It goes back to the Germans helping some Ukrainians, during the WW2. Obviously, Zelenskyy is no Nazi, neither are most Ukrainians and that's no justification for it. My point is, some of the money sent by the West is going to Nazis.
This is Russian propaganda. The truth is, Zelensky, who is ethnic Jew, got 73% popular vote during last elections.
 
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Offline BravoV

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I don't support Putin, but the EU, along with NATO are partly responsible for this mess in the first place. If they promised Russia they weren't going to expand eastwards and kept to it and stopped interfering
This is Russian propaganda. There is no a single international agreement, ratified by any NATO member state or not, that spells out such promises.

Yep, clearly that is the evil and nasty Russia propaganda, as I see you carry US flag, you should be aware that even an US former congresswoman and also an US president candidate, also she is an US military colonel and heck, even one of the most popular news host in US, Tucker Carlson too, all are bashing Ukraine like hell ... clearly they are moles and evil Putin's mouth piece.

Damn, forget about EU countries, Putin literally already won over US too, isn't he ?  :-DD


Offline vad

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I repeat. I don't support the actions of Russia in Ukraine. It's just there's a lot more to is than we're led to believe. The sanctions don't appear to be making any difference. China seems to have made friends with Russia again. All it's doing is hurting us. It's all a big mess. We really aught to step back and keep our noses out.
This is what Russia, through its propaganda outlets, including RT (“Russia Today”) quoted in this thread, wants West to do.

The fact is, Russia was manipulating EU natural gas spot prices last autumn, 6 months before the invasion, and before the sanctions that followed. The only EU’s failure is that they neglected their energy security for decades, creating too much dependency on Russia, who proved to be unreliable supplier.

Limited EU sanctions, that excluded energy embargo, do have benign impact on Russia. EU was sending 800 million Euros a day to Russia, financing Russian war, while Russian soldiers, mercenaries and KGB officers where raping women in Bucha and Irpen, carpet bombing Mariupol, castrating POWs, and sending tens of thousands of civilians through filtration camps.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2022, 05:45:49 am by vad »
 

Offline vad

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I don't support Putin, but the EU, along with NATO are partly responsible for this mess in the first place. If they promised Russia they weren't going to expand eastwards and kept to it and stopped interfering
This is Russian propaganda. There is no a single international agreement, ratified by any NATO member state or not, that spells out such promises.

Yep, clearly that is the evil and nasty Russia propaganda, as I see you carry US flag, you should be aware that even an US former congresswoman and also an US president candidate, also she is an US military colonel and heck, even one of the most popular news host in US, Tucker Carlson too, all are bashing Ukraine like hell ... clearly they are moles and evil Putin's mouth piece.

Damn, forget about EU countries, Putin literally already won over US too, isn't he ?  :-DD
If there was an international agreement, where Russia was given the non-expansion promise - tell me the name that agreement, and date when it was ratified by the Congress.
 

Offline JohanH

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So this thread is turning into propaganda by Putin's useful idiots in west, knowing nothing about the realities living as a neighbor next to an imperialistic and fascistic country with an autocratic leader. From our perspective, people like Trump, Tucker Carlson & al are clearly bought by Russian money, and knowingly or not are spreading their propaganda in the west. Even mentioning the word "nazi" in context of Ukraine, should make all bells ring, because that is the Russian false narrative.

Can you trolls stay out of here, or moderators, please lock this thread!
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Can you trolls stay out of here

It's not about trolls, it's IQ101 "muh I'm a free thinker muh THE TWO SIDES OF THE COIN" useful idiots who are not intelligent enough to realize they are being used. It doesn't surprise me the slightest. The Russian propaganda is based on the principle of making really simple matters look like complex issues with many sides, and feed that bullcrap into media world-wide. Then our "free thinkers" go "OMG, there are nazis in Ukraine, too!"

The problem: the exact same propaganda can be seen for Finland, too. International press already contains news like "there are nazis in Finland", "Finland is the most racist country of Europe" etc. etc. Guess where these news are coming from? It' a process that takes years or decades.

And if/when Russia decides to try to invade Finland, then our Zero999 Free Thinkers go "OMG, there are two sides to this coin, I can confirm there are nazis in Finland, and by the way, they are the most racist country of the Europe. And by the way, I don't support the Russia's attack, BUT..." And meanwhile we are being ass-raped.
 
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Online KE5FX

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So this thread is turning into propaganda by Putin's useful idiots in west, knowing nothing about the realities living as a neighbor next to an imperialistic and fascistic country with an autocratic leader. From our perspective, people like Trump, Tucker Carlson & al are clearly bought by Russian money, and knowingly or not are spreading their propaganda in the west. Even mentioning the word "nazi" in context of Ukraine, should make all bells ring, because that is the Russian false narrative.

Can you trolls stay out of here, or moderators, please lock this thread!

I prefer that it remain open.  Let the tankies and trolls tell us who they are.  It may save time later.
 

Offline Simon

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Can we keep the politics out please.

As for the UK Armagedon will start when we have to cut gas supplies as we don't have enough to generate electricity and you can't have a bit of a grid. Industries will have to shut down to save electricity.

The UK made it's worse mistake when it did not take renewables seriously. Without outside energy supplies we are nought.
 

Offline JohanH

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The UK made it's worse mistake when it did not take renewables seriously. Without outside energy supplies we are nought.

Yes, this was a critical mistake. Also not demanding enough insulation in houses was another (scrapped by Cameron gov 2013).
 

Online tautech

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Can we keep the politics out please.

As for the UK Armagedon will start when we have to cut gas supplies as we don't have enough to generate electricity and you can't have a bit of a grid. Industries will have to shut down to save electricity.

The UK made it's worse mistake when it did not take renewables seriously. Without outside energy supplies we are nought.
Wouldn't rolling brown outs to the residential areas be more acceptable to keep industry running and then there's the tube.......  :scared:
Authorities can also get a lot smarter with low consumption lighting and/or dialing it back when security and safety requirements permit.

Has your Gubbermint started asking for the population to go easy on energy in preparation for the winter ?
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Offline tom66Topic starter

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Moving away from politics as clearly there is fairly fierce disagreement here.

I have been looking at super-insulating my home.  It is a 1930's detached house, extended in the 80s.  The walls have cavity insulation, and the loft is insulated, the windows double glazed, but I'm fairly sure the floor isn't insulated.  I found this interesting guide:
https://www.sureinsulation.co.uk/services/services-house-warming-parties-blog.shtml

It looks like a day or two's worth of work to do for the living room (and I'd probably use PIR sheets instead as it'd be quicker for minimal extra cost. would save fitting battens between the boards) but potentially worthwhile.   I want to replace the carpet in the living room anyway as it's badly stained from the previous owners, so it might be a good two-for-one job.

The other rooms would be more difficult.  The diner has a solid floor and the kitchen is tiled, so those might need to wait, but the living room is one area we will spend a lot of time in.
 

Offline tszaboo

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I don't support Putin, but the EU, along with NATO are partly responsible for this mess in the first place. If they promised Russia they weren't going to expand eastwards and kept to it and stopped interfering
This is Russian propaganda. There is no a single international agreement, ratified by any NATO member state or not, that spells out such promises.
Yes, there is.
It's called the Budapest memorandum. It states:

Quote
Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively abandoning their nuclear arsenal to Russia and that they agreed to the following:

Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.
Refrain from the threat or the use of force against the signatory.
Oh wait...
 
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Offline nctnico

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Moving away from politics as clearly there is fairly fierce disagreement here.

I have been looking at super-insulating my home.  It is a 1930's detached house, extended in the 80s.  The walls have cavity insulation, and the loft is insulated, the windows double glazed, but I'm fairly sure the floor isn't insulated.  I found this interesting guide:
https://www.sureinsulation.co.uk/services/services-house-warming-parties-blog.shtml

It looks like a day or two's worth of work to do for the living room (and I'd probably use PIR sheets instead as it'd be quicker for minimal extra cost. would save fitting battens between the boards) but potentially worthwhile.   I want to replace the carpet in the living room anyway as it's badly stained from the previous owners, so it might be a good two-for-one job.

The other rooms would be more difficult.  The diner has a solid floor and the kitchen is tiled, so those might need to wait, but the living room is one area we will spend a lot of time in.
Can you get under your house? If yes, then you could apply insulation there onto the other side of the floor. But whatever you do, you have to be very carefull with trapping moisture / creating 'cold bridges' that can introduce build up of moisture and cause mold & water damage issues. Better get an expert's opinion first on what is a good approach.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tom66Topic starter

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Can you get under your house? If yes, then you could apply insulation there onto the other side of the floor. But whatever you do, you have to be very carefull with trapping moisture / creating 'cold bridges' that can introduce build up of moisture and cause mold & water damage issues. Better get an expert's opinion first on what is a good approach.

No access under the property without building a basement unfortunately.  However, I do need to check if the building was actually constructed with airbricks to provide under floor ventilation, to prevent the timbers from rotting.  There's signs in the garage of these (garage is attached) but I can't see them anywhere else, which is a bit odd.
 

Offline nctnico

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There is no crawl space at all? How to get to pipes under the house?
Don't be surprised if it turns out that is is easier & better to rip the entire ground floor out and replace the entire floor. My guess is that after all this time, some timbers will have started to rot and need replacing anyway. It will cost money but IMHO the increased living comfort alone will be worth it. It would be a pity to add insulation on top only to find out everything needs to be ripped out again to fix the floor.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2022, 12:00:21 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tom66Topic starter

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There is no crawl space at all? How to get to pipes under the house?
Don't be surprised if it turns out that is is easier & better to rip the entire ground floor out and replace the entire floor. My guess is that after all this time, some timbers will have started to rot and need replacing anyway. It will cost money but IMHO the increased living comfort alone will be worth it.

All pipes are above ground, inside the living space.  This is pretty common for British homes.  They're either buried in walls and covered with plaster, or just below the subfloor (therefore requiring the floor to be ripped up to service them, yay), or just routed around the walls as a surface fixture.
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Can we keep the politics out please.

As for the UK Armagedon will start when we have to cut gas supplies as we don't have enough to generate electricity and you can't have a bit of a grid. Industries will have to shut down to save electricity.

The UK made it's worse mistake when it did not take renewables seriously. Without outside energy supplies we are nought.

Strange because I see a ton of Solar being installed in the UK. That and people buying EVs and installing their EV charging points.

I say that because I follow 2 YT channels that focus in electrical and solar instalations/troubleshooting in the UK:

https://youtu.be/C6RBzFaf9Lg

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2u_ypf5vMypbnMhzsbNlBhr-lX2wp0et

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2u_ypf5vMyqQe9mb7V1ohQg-2TgVZJ34

https://youtube.com/c/OvalRenewables

Going by this I would assume that although not taking seriously before, there have been a push and increase in Solar plus EVs.
 

Offline james_s

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All pipes are above ground, inside the living space.  This is pretty common for British homes.  They're either buried in walls and covered with plaster, or just below the subfloor (therefore requiring the floor to be ripped up to service them, yay), or just routed around the walls as a surface fixture.

Lots of US homes don't have a crawlspace either, although lots of them do. They built millions and millions of the classic split level design which is what my house is. It's built on a slab with a daylight basement, there is a central wall that the water supply and DWV pipes are in and they branch off from there in the cavity between the upper floor and the basement.

The thing that surprised me about UK homes is how many of them have the DWV pipes run down the outside. All of the houses in the area where my friend lived had toilets on outside walls that drain right through the wall to a pipe run down the outside. You would never see that over here, our toilets universally drain out the bottom and into a pipe that runs down an inside wall. You don't see exposed infrastructure in general here on private homes.
 

Offline Zero999

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The problem with propaganda is there's some element of truth to it. I can confirm there are Nazis in Ukraine. I've been there and witnessed it myself. It goes back to the Germans helping some Ukrainians, during the WW2. Obviously, Zelenskyy is no Nazi, neither are most Ukrainians and that's no justification for it. My point is, some of the money sent by the West is going to Nazis.
This is Russian propaganda. The truth is, Zelensky, who is ethnic Jew, got 73% popular vote during last elections.
What propaganda? I've been to Ukraine and personally spoken to Nazis there. They referred to blacks as niggers and that the country would be better without them and the Jews. I know Zelensky is a Jew. I never said he was a Nazi. I clearly said that's not the case. How free and fair the election was is another matter. It's much more complicated than Putin bad, Zelensky good. The two men have a lot in common, character wise. They're built of the same stuff. The difference is Putin did start it and is in the wrong, but that doesn't mean Zelensky is a saint.
Can we keep the politics out please.

As for the UK Armagedon will start when we have to cut gas supplies as we don't have enough to generate electricity and you can't have a bit of a grid. Industries will have to shut down to save electricity.

The UK made it's worse mistake when it did not take renewables seriously. Without outside energy supplies we are nought.

Strange because I see a ton of Solar being installed in the UK. That and people buying EVs and installing their EV charging points.

I say that because I follow 2 YT channels that focus in electrical and solar instalations/troubleshooting in the UK:

https://youtu.be/C6RBzFaf9Lg

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2u_ypf5vMypbnMhzsbNlBhr-lX2wp0et

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2u_ypf5vMyqQe9mb7V1ohQg-2TgVZJ34

https://youtube.com/c/OvalRenewables

Going by this I would assume that although not taking seriously before, there have been a push and increase in Solar plus EVs.
Solar is useless during the winter. The equinox is just over three weeks away, most of the country is north of 50o parallel and the weather tends to be the most overcast between October and January, so we often get no solar at all on some days. Wind tends to pick up at this time of year, but it's also quite common to get fog, when it's cold with no wind or solar.

In the long term we need nuclear, but I do think we need fracking to supply energy in the meantime. I know that's an unpopular opinion, but needs must. I think there should be some sort of scheme to give people who live near a nuclear reactor, or fracking field cheaper energy bills, so they're less likely to complain. I suppose cheap district heating for those near a nuclear plant would be a big benefit and save more energy at the same time.

Moving away from politics as clearly there is fairly fierce disagreement here.

I have been looking at super-insulating my home.  It is a 1930's detached house, extended in the 80s.  The walls have cavity insulation, and the loft is insulated, the windows double glazed, but I'm fairly sure the floor isn't insulated.  I found this interesting guide:
https://www.sureinsulation.co.uk/services/services-house-warming-parties-blog.shtml

It looks like a day or two's worth of work to do for the living room (and I'd probably use PIR sheets instead as it'd be quicker for minimal extra cost. would save fitting battens between the boards) but potentially worthwhile.   I want to replace the carpet in the living room anyway as it's badly stained from the previous owners, so it might be a good two-for-one job.

The other rooms would be more difficult.  The diner has a solid floor and the kitchen is tiled, so those might need to wait, but the living room is one area we will spend a lot of time in.
Insulation is good. Here's a picture of the loft insulation in my house. It keeps the heat out in summer, as well as warm in winter.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2022, 05:18:31 pm by Zero999 »
 


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