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"Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them)

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themadhippy:
To thinka century ago most large citys were using electric vehicles  to get the masses around without range anxiety or having to carry  heavy battery's

Someone:

--- Quote from: Someone on August 30, 2022, 11:37:17 pm ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on August 30, 2022, 10:59:10 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 30, 2022, 10:48:42 pm ---the case for electric vehicles as they can be supply responsive and provide the currently missing storage in the gird.
--- End quote ---
If EV batteries are going to be used to balance the grid, then it's only fair the owners should be compensated for the additional wear on the battery. The meter connected to the car should work the same in both directions.
--- End quote ---
If you jump immediately to storage = public resource then that might be true, but that's your misleading definition/requirement.

People with cars want to drive them around, but they (on average) sit idle for 95% of the time. It does not need all that time to recharge them, the charging can be done at the convenience of supply. The energy needed is stored for use later. All that grumbling about negative electricity prices during peak solar production? EVs will soak it up if that is exposed to the consumer, they dont need to return anything to the grid to store the "excess" energy as they form a fairly predictable energy sink with peaky use. The clever bit will be lining up all the commercial interests so a user can just plug in and have it automatically happen.

If EVs are going to be using some large percentage of all energy (as some say is the barrier to their uptake) then they will be presenting an even larger percentage of storage to the grid, which solves many of the energy production issues.

--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: nctnico on August 30, 2022, 11:52:42 pm ---Now calculate the price per kWh you'd need to receive from the power company to cover the wear on your precious battery... EVs as grid storage is the most stupidest idea ever. It simply isn't cost effective.  For starters: EV batteries aren't made for grid storage purposes.

--- End quote ---
FFS, you want an EV that cant store energy? better get a long extension lead....

Every practical EV stores energy, you know, for when its driving along the road.

The vast majority of EVs dont need to be charged during peak electricity demand (currently post work/dinner evening peak in most countries), they can be charged whenever power is cheap/plentiful in most instances and wait for it... store that energy until its needed.

BravoV:

--- Quote from: tom66 on August 30, 2022, 11:00:25 pm ---"Wholesale gas prices tumble as Europe prepares to intervene in energy markets"

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/30/wholesale-gas-prices-tumble-as-europe-prepares-to-intervene-in-energy-markets

https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/eu-natural-gas

We'll have to see if this intervention produces an actual outcome, but it does seem to have calmed the market briefly.

Still even if prices drop to just 8-10x the 2019 high then it's very bad nonetheless.  I think they need to get down to max 3-4x before the outcome is mild (limited recession, people able to keep heating on, etc.)

--- End quote ---

Yes, spot price for gas in Europe is easing lately, but ... psstt ... this is really what happened behind the curtain.  >:D

Even this article below is behind paywall, you can have a glimpse just by reading the title, and this UK based FT (Financial Times) is a hardcore anti Russia news outlet btw, since cold war.

Source -> https://www.ft.com/content/1e20467a-5b53-42b7-ad89-49808f7e1780


But to be able to decode the FT article further, this source below is US based (more aligned to pro right wing US) which is clearly pro-US, read here ...

Source -> https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/china-aggressively-reselling-russian-gas-europe

Quote ...

Russia has surpassed Indonesia and the United States to become China’s fourth-largest supplier of LNG so far this year!

What was behind this bizarre surge in Russian LNG imports, analysts speculated? After all, while China imports over half of the natural gas it consumes, with around two-thirds in the form of LNG, demand this year had fallen sharply amid economic headwinds and widespread shutdowns. In other words, why the surge in Russian LNG  when i) domestic demand is just not there and ii) at the expense of everyone else?

Well, we now know the answer: China has been quietly reselling that evil, tainted Russian LNG to the one place that desperately needs it more than anything. Europe... and of course, it is charging a kidney's worth of markups in the process.

Hilariously, it also means that instead of being dependent on Russia for gas, Europe is now becoming dependent on Beijing instead for its energy - which is still Russian gas, only this time imported from China - which makes a mockery of US geopolitical ambitions to defend a liberal international order with its own energy exports.

Worse, while Europe could buy Russian LNG for price X, it instead has to pay 2X, 3X or more, just to virtue signal to the world that it won't fund Putin's regime, when in reality is is paying extra to both Xi and to Putin, ....  :-DD

Again, do not forget, the surge in gas price in Europe is not a spike like toilet paper's problem because of sudden hoarding, but the constant need is there, and Russia gas represent big chunks of it, and with sudden lost, no other countries have spare capacity to replace that, just plain simple truth.

Someone:

--- Quote from: themadhippy on August 31, 2022, 01:48:33 am ---To thinka century ago most large citys were using electric vehicles  to get the masses around without range anxiety or having to carry  heavy battery's
--- End quote ---
Things like trains ran more often and more reliably too! Its a change in what the public "demand" as their basic minimum living standard. Travelling to the other side of the city to see a friend for a social activity was once a significant decision/choice, now its a "basic right" and is seen as cheap and convenient. As above in this thread, once people heated a single room and survived ok, but now people are demanding they should be able to heat their entire house and someone else should subsidise/pay for that.

We had a period of (unsustainably) cheap energy, it was never going to last. Trying to subsidise people to continue their unproductive activities is sure disaster.

SiliconWizard:

--- Quote from: BravoV on August 31, 2022, 02:30:06 am ---Source -> https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/china-aggressively-reselling-russian-gas-europe

--- End quote ---

No kidding! :-DD

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